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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 9, 2007 14:59:33 GMT -5
Just a quick lookie loo
Avengers issue 217 Iron Man is having a funny battle with the Mechamarauder in front of the mansion and on page 3 maybe 4 The marauder, after having an attack with a limo thwarted mutters,.. you guessed it,.."Oy, vey"
No joke, I wonder if some ninjas will show up later in this issue.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 17, 2007 14:44:58 GMT -5
I just always hated that, Avengers West Coast thing. They will always be the West Coast Avengers for me. Was it just a gut feeling, Nutcase? Or do you have more specific reasons for your dislike...? I don't mean I particularly liked the execution of the idea, although I did enjoy some arcs of their run, but I love the concept of it: having another Avengers team on the opposite coast, especially one lead by Hawkeye, who gats the chance to lead an Avengers team with his own leading style, without competing with Cap or being under his shadow... Nothing any more sophisticated than I didn't like the name. I really enjoyed the story. Iron Man casting the vote that put the West Coast out of buisiness, then when Cap is congratulating him on making the right decision, he quit. I liked it a lot. Just never like the name change. Blame it on old fogyism
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 17, 2007 5:25:00 GMT -5
I just always hated that, Avengers West Coast thing. They will always be the West Coast Avengers for me.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 16, 2007 16:25:02 GMT -5
Those were some of the first comics I ever had. I really enjoyed them. They might not be the most sophisticated to the comic conniseur but they were fine by me.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 9, 2007 17:45:43 GMT -5
maybe she just let herself go
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 9, 2007 17:18:19 GMT -5
Is it covered in the later issues when she gets a tail? Cuz she doesn't have one here.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 9, 2007 16:22:22 GMT -5
yes, but Shooter came back for this one appearance.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 9, 2007 12:31:30 GMT -5
appearantly they like to throw this kinda thing at me every 100 issues. Exactly 100 issues after me first truly what th,... moment in the Avengers series, here I have another.
This issue Cap decides, all of the sudden, that they need to pare the active membership down to 6.
At the beginning of the meeting a whole bunch of folks show up out of nowhere claiming they have been forced to show up
Moon Knight Ice Man Hawkeye Black Widow Angel Yellowjacket Tigra Dazzler Black Panther Hercules
Then several of them start fighting each other huh?
Then it turns out Moondragon is doing all of this because it's her job to straighten out the Avengers rank and file
huh?
So she freezes the Avengers and sends Hawkeye, Black Widow, Dazzler and Blsck Panther out the door.
Then the Avengers get free and fight her,... she fights back,... they start winning,.. she disappears claiming that she has more important things to do,... blah blah blah.
huh?
So , Scarlet Witch, Vision and Beast decide they are better served elsewhere, Wonder man goes off with his new buddy Hercules to make new friends in the movie buisiness. Jocasta the equivalent of Marvin the Paranoid Android gets depressed and heads off to find true love.
We're left with Cap, Iron Man, Yellowjacket, Wasp, Thor and Tigra.
Whatever
This was so haphazard and random I can only give it: 1 Loony out of 10
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 13, 2007 13:35:50 GMT -5
I read back over where this thread has gone, it really looks like a simple debate has turned into people trying to justify, or if not excuse, rape. I know that this is not what you guys are trying to do.
I am gonna stop posting to this one, cus it has the potential to get ugly. Argue what you want to I don't want to start fighting here. I won't post to this again.
Luv y'all
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 13, 2007 13:09:58 GMT -5
Earlier Rex mentioned going to those particular clubs, the fallacy of that example is that the girls in question there CHOOSE to go into those clubs.
As far as the point about doing things you regret, it is clear to me that Carol did not CHOOSE to have a light nudge from any machine.
Von Bek, it starts to look like you are wanting to debate just for the sake of it. While that is fine on other topics, it's not so much here. Your analogy of the date with the woman, in your example she CHOOSE to drink. In the context of the story Carol clearly feels she would not have choose to be with Marcus without his outside manipulations.
As far as no comparison point, I disagree. I would say that someone slipping any drug into someones drink, without the drinkers knowledge, is a very close comparison. Marcus 'nudged' her mind without knowledge or consent. Marcus did this to furthrt his desires of their relationship. The writers intent is very clear here. If you need them to explain it go ahead, but it is clear to many of the rest of us
I've dealt with situations frighteningly similar. I have also seen courts of law send people away for these kinds of actions. Let me put it this way. If that technology was available, and any guy took my daughter on a date, and things developed in the exact same way as written here, or any similar way. That man wouldn't have to worry about court.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 13, 2007 6:54:32 GMT -5
and just because you were raised that something is OK doesn't make it so.
In the South many kids were raised that it's OK to hate because of skin color. Doesn't make it right.
In many homes kids are raised seeing their father beating their mother. This creates a cycle in which sons grow up to be abusive and daughters grow up seeking abusive partners. I would hope no person on here would say that this is OK
The sctions you listed by the Spartans are also wrong. When we look back many will comment on the 'barbaric' nature of those individuals.
RSC states it quite well when he points out the fact about 'subtle manipulation' As soon as he alters her ability, in ANY degree, too make choices under her own steam, without her awareness, and then takes advantage, it's still rape.
Since someone got a little upset by me asking them about it happening to their loved ones (why would it upset you if it isn't wrong) I'll put it like this.
Guys, how would you feel if Marcus Immortus had you in Limbo and gave YOUR mind a slight nudge?
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 12, 2007 15:13:57 GMT -5
Tana, we do have some common ground to begin with. I see where you coming from and understood your position. But I was just trying to show that it is possible to see other sides of this than just the P.C. view that "she was raped - period". Nutcase - C´mon man, that was low. To ask what if "it was your wife" (or girlfriend) is just wrong from the start, because even if she had consensual sex whit somebody else I (like almost every man) would be upset. I will not even mention the "mother" part of your argument. You can do better than that. RSC - We all know you´re a heart bleeding liberal, man But Tana is right when she says it was all because last minute changes from the part of the editors. Michellinie couldn´t undo issues 198 and 199 to make Carol actually remember who got her preagnant, so the answer was making Marcus had her brainwashed... This is not a PC view. I welcome you to come live with me for a few days. The PC police would put me under the jail, you'd see that I'm the least PC person there is. The simple fact is, once you introduce a foreign subatance or procedure that causes a loss in cognitive ability or affects choice. Basically anything that would make a person say yes, when they would have said no. If you take advantage. It's rape. The reason I ask you to consider the situation in context of the people you care about is that there is a tendencey to debate on here for the sake of debate. That's fine. But rape is not debatable and I wanted to get folks out of debate mode. This subject has ruined too many lives to be debatable. It's black and white. and funnyman Rush Limbaugh called me the other day and told me I was being too conservative. I still luvya though
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 12, 2007 5:25:02 GMT -5
RSC,
Thank you, that issue made me feel weird and I didn't know why. In a certain light, you are right. I don't know that it would be considered rape, because Hawkeye is not responsible for causing her altered state and didn't cause it with the means of having her as is the case with the comic in question here. But he DID indeed take advantage of a situation that he knew wasn't right. That does put it in a reprehensible light.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 11, 2007 20:44:50 GMT -5
you're not the only one RSC. Not a liberal,
here's another situation,... you're the new guy in prison and you're new roomie 'Tank' slips you a mickey,......
nevermind, I think you get it
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 11, 2007 16:32:13 GMT -5
Tana, let me try to help.
Guys think like this. If you're married think about your wife. If you're not, think about your mom.
What if someone were to use some sort of artificial method (drug, hypnosis, alcohol whatever) to alter your wife/mom's perception and then has sex with her.
Are you saying you wouldn't track this guy down and beat the living tar out of him?
If your answer is yes, then you believe this is a rape situation. If your answer is no, then I don't kno what to say. Tana would be right. It'll be impossible to find common ground with you.
As an ex-paramedic who has had to deal with this situation, it is rape. The way it's written in the comic, it is rape.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 11, 2007 15:07:48 GMT -5
yeah, I think you are right. Also I'm surprised this issue gets so much attention.
There definately doesn't seem to be any fence sitting on this issue. It's either they liked it or hated it.
I love Rogue, so it could've been terrible (I still dont think it was) but I would've liked it anyway.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 11, 2007 14:37:31 GMT -5
Let's compare the story where Thor was mind controlled to be Moondragon's consort. In that case, as I recall, the Avengers were very quick to confront her to try to free Thor's will. In that case, the mind control is treated as the attack that it is, no matter how much Thor might have thought he was having a good time. True, I don't remember this quite as clearly as I wish I did, but isn't that correct? Good point, BY. As I recall, she wound up being taken to Asgard to be judged by Odin no less! Although the situations are different (Thor was actively attacking his fellow Avengers), in both cases, the heroes' were not acting from free will. At least in Thor's case, the Avengers recognized this. you are both 100% correct. I think, in some sense tho' that annual 10 was a was an attempt to fix 200. For that time tho' this was a pretty heavy topic to try to cover. Today, people would hardly bat an eye.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 10, 2007 18:28:49 GMT -5
I agree with your take on 200 Tana
I was surprised that the Avengers unquestioningly let her go. The insanity of the entire situation, you think they'd look into it closer.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 10, 2007 16:17:28 GMT -5
If someone says they like or dislike something how can you tell them they're wrong? Some people don't like it. If I tell them they're wrong I'm telling them they don't know what they like. If folks don't like something, it's ok. I don't like broccoli. If you do, that doesn't make me wrong. It just makes us different. That being said. You guys are wrong. You really enjoyed this book. jk
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 9, 2007 11:56:07 GMT -5
I've found most of the issues since I entered the 200's pretty blah. Then I got to this one.
Fight fans this one is a must.
Avengers vs. The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants
Mystique Rogue Destiny Blob Pyro Avalanche
The fights between the Avengers and the Brotherhood are fast and furious. I've always liked Rogue and getting to see her take Thor down so quickly was fun. Also the fights in the prison were classic back and forth battling.
You also get to see the results of what happened with Carol Danvers after she went off with her son/lover. That was a very weird series in the title and I had my questions about how it turned out. This answered those questions, in a very sad way for Carol.
I'd never read any books where Rogue was starting out as a bad guy. I knew they existed, just hadn't read them. So this was a real treat.
The only real downside for me was the artwork. The ladies eyes were drawsn almost Magna large. and the coloring left much to be desired. It was bad enough for me to cost this one an entire Loony
So overall this gets 8 1/2 Loonies out of 10
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 17, 2007 14:37:50 GMT -5
also pathetic
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 17, 2007 14:37:35 GMT -5
I know how lame this sounds, but how is this for continuity. I have all of Cap's issues on DVD I have the Avengers DVD As soon as I get Iron Man, I'm gonna organize them, with the Avengers as the main line, so that I can read through the series and read all the tie in's that are mentioned as the stories go along. I'll probably even get Thor (thanks a lot Tana, your posts in the Thor line have gotten me that interested. More money I don't have ) How's that for continuity?
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 15, 2007 14:27:49 GMT -5
So,... I'm sorry for being confused here. Is he saying that all of the incisistancies were pre-planned in order to drive sales of a lagging title? Why that's brilliant. ^ l l l That was sarcasm by the way
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 9, 2007 8:59:34 GMT -5
I would never have it said that Doom did not possess class. It's just to bad that class is 'postage due' You shall knock me through no wall evil-doer
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 8, 2007 19:33:10 GMT -5
You should underline seems . funny, she said that too,....
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 8, 2007 18:18:03 GMT -5
I'd expect a writer to know the main points (not that the story suffered from it, I really liked that issue of ASM). This is the crux of what I'm saying, and the trap I originally got caught up in. You still manage to enjoy the story, in spite of the error. Sometimes it just gets so easy to fixate on the error. That being said, I also agree heartily with your point, the writer needs some responsibility to keeping accurate. We just shouldn't let the ignorance of others dictate our enjoyment,.. if possible. My wife overlooks my ignorance all the time and still seems to enjoy my company.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 8, 2007 16:07:44 GMT -5
you're right, I lost my head there. spank you for straightening me out.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 8, 2007 15:40:42 GMT -5
That doesn't have to be a bad thing tho'
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 8, 2007 12:09:32 GMT -5
But reading back over those early issues, I'm surprised at how little Marvel worried about continuity back then. I’m not sure it’s that they worried little; as I mentioned above, there were other factors, and Stan & co. tried to address the question in creative ways. Yeah,.. worried little is an oversimplification on my part, I apologize. I strongly agree with your statement about 'creative ways' I mean rather than justifying what they did, they just came right and and said "hey, if you can explain this character being here when he shouldn't be, you win a no-prize" I think that's actually a pretty good idea on their part.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 8, 2007 7:57:18 GMT -5
not completely agreeing. I think some of the arguments are oversimplifications. That bit about meeting someone three times insted of four. I think that kind of nit-picking is a little beyond nutty even for me. I'm just saying it's something that happens, and that it always has and probably always will. If we let ourselves get thrown by it, we suffer.
Here's an example. I was reading Cable and deadpool when Bridge's Mercs attack Cable. Among those in the attack is Solo. Having just a while before this read Frontlines I know that Solo is on his way to 42. So I read the entire issue hung up on the whole Solo thing and miss the story. Later on I realize that I don't understand what is happening in the story because I let that one oversight distract me. I went back and read it again, just reading the story, not looking for errors, and enjoyed it a lot more.
Plus there were no ninjas in this story. (Deadpool doesn't count as a ninja, does he?)
So I'm just saying, why not just ignore some of these continuity things and just read? Now the character assassinations I will never agree with. but thats a different fight altogether.
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