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Worst Avengers:

1. Triathalon--his Arsenio Hall Hairstyle alone should disqualify him for membership. Plus he was a pain in the azz.

2. Gilgamesh--I agree he brought absolutely nothing to the table.

3. Rage--Black exploitation at it's absolute worst. If he was so "enraged" all the time maybe he should be in a mental hospital, not the Avengers.

4. Reed and Sue: Great Characters, but terrible Avengers.

5. Silverclaw--Ugh. A complete and utter zero in every way.

6. All the "New Avengers." Particularly Wolverine.

Crimson--THANK YOU. I thought I was going crazy because I told people on this forum that the Panther used to be able to lift 800lbs, the same as CA, but then suddenly it was changed in later editions of the MU Index. Nobody remembered that but me! I also recall Wolverine being in the 500lb range, and now that changed too. Thanks for the backup on that!

I agree that Daredevil is the champ in the senses category, but on the other hand as I already stated, there have been many many times when the Panther has been shown to be able to detect supernatural presences--which is something I can't recall DD ever doing (Could be wrong there). Now the Panther vs Wolverine--I'd call it a draw.

In regards to his agility, the Beast himself, before he went furry, fought the Panther and Hank said "You are equally agile as I, but you can't match my strength"--so who am I to argue with him? I'll call them equal. And I agree BP is slightly more agile and faster than Captain America.

Stealth--yeah BP is #1, with the exception of Sue Richards hee hee

When it comes to hand-to-hand combat, I think BP's style should be completely different from CA's--all acrobatics mainly (like the vid by the way) because that style is visually exciting.

I agree that Spiderman is probably faster than BP--being seriously superhuman.

Just found another example of T'Challa's nearly supernaturally acute senses--in the 1960's issue where the Avengers rescue the Black Knight (#56 maybe?), the Panther senses Doctor Strange appearing from the ether, saying he "senses an alien presence."

From the Marvel Index regarding Wolverine's strength level:

Strength Level: While Wolverine may be of an advanced age, he possesses the normal human strength of a man in his prime with his height and build who engages in intensive regular exercise. While possessing the adamantium skeleton, Wolverine's strength was increased to the human maximum, making him capable of lifting (pressing) 800 lbs.

Sharky--yeah, BP not recognizing YJ immediately was dumb--but back in those days writers came up with a story and didn't let minor issues stand in the way! BP not recognizing him is about as dumb as Jan not just telling everybody "LOOK--Yellowjacket IS Hank, ya big dummies." That, of course, would have prevented a bunch of hard feelings and fist fights--but who wants to read a goody goody story. Back in those days the Avengers fought each other more than they fought villains.

The Black Panther's senses, like his other abilities, have been all over the place over the years. As you pointed out, he couldn't recognize YJ by his scent (or voice for that matter) but in his original appearance in the FF, T'Challa could find the Invisible Girl by scent alone. In later years (issue 120-something) The Panther says "once I learn a scent I never forget it" and tracks a T-Rex back to Magneto's underground lair (and, I might point out, Daredevil was along on that mission and didn't seem to smell anything unusual---hmmm). There were times when BP's senses bordered on the supernatural--like when he senses the Grandmaster appearing before Kang did back in the late 60's) and T'Challa was always the Avenger who "sensed danger" and warned the others.

In Secret Wars--it was clear that his olfactory sense was on exactly the same par as Wolverine's, as they both sensed the prize at the same time (and it was buried underground)

In the 90's when the Avengers fought Ultron, the Panther tracked the kidnapped Avengers underground--but said his senses weren't "THAT good" to be able to tell who he was tracking (?).

So like I said, his senses are all over the place.

I was just reading the Essential Avengers--three I think--and realized something else great about John Buscema's work. He was so good at making battle scenes seem really intense, and always showed off the Avengers' abilities in very cool ways. When the Avenger fought the masters of Evil in issue 52 and 53, I loved how he drew the Panther leaping onto the head of one of the villains, and flipping him into the Radioactive Man! Now THAT was a great showing of T'Challa's abilities! I also loved how he had Goliath smashing through a ceiling! There was a certain drama to his work that was very exciting to me as a kid--it still is!

Tana--will you marry me?

I agree completely with every word. I like the tech gadgets because that was part of the Panther ethic back when he appeared first in the FF. He was on par with Reed Richards in that sense. That being said, I don't think the gadgets should over-power the catlike abilities--and that has absolutely happened in the past five or six years. Has he even done any acrobatics in the past ten years? I can't recall any.

HB--I don't have a problem with non-powered super heroes per se--but all of the super-heroes you mentioned, with the exception of Mantis, had weapons. I recall one letter-to-the-Editor whereas a reader called the panther "nothing more than a Captain America running around without a shield" and said he was too weak to be in the Avengers. The reader also suggested giving T'Challa a weapon. I was glad when Priest gave T'Challa the energy spears, which came in really handy against Ultron on several occasions.

I also just found a real story of a guy who lifted 4,000 lbs on his back. So my comments about lifting 750 lbs not being "peak human" is correct, and it sure isn't super hero material

I agree DL. I wanna stress here that I don't think BP should be superior in strength to CA--I think both oughtta be upped a bit. If a normal human can squat 1,200 lbs, CA and BP should be able to at least double that.

Hi Guys

twogirlsaguyandsomecomics.blogspot.com/search/label/Black%20Panther

Have you guys read DL's blog? He sent me a link to his blog where he discusses the Black Panther and I have a question for you all--did you all get the impression over the years that the Black Panther had no super powers?

I have to say that when the Panther was first presented he seemed like he was super-powered. He was able to leap across a city block in his first appearance in the Avengers and was able to easily break down a thick oak door with one left handed punch. Also in his first appearance in the FF, he was able to fight the Thing hand-to-hand (yeah the Thing was weakened, but not that much). As many letters over the years have stated in the Avengers letters page, it has been all downhill since then.

A person with no super-powers has no business in the Avengers, if true.

Over and over in the Avengers and elsewhere, the Black Panther has been said to be "possessor of the Panther Power"--in fact, the Lion God Immortal said so back in the 70's. And in the Panther origin issue of Avengers, T'Challa said that after taking the heart-shaped herb, his strength and speed increased, making him "unstoppable, unconquerable." Ergo--the heart shaped herb did something to his body chemistry. But what?

Years after those stories, BP was so disgustingly de-powered that when the Avengers fought the Lava Men, T'Challa passed out from the heat and Captain America commented "The Panther is as tough as nails but doesn't even have the super soldier serum protecting him like I do." What? What happened to the heart-shaped herb and the secret religious rituals the Black Panther took part in to gain
his "panther power."

Also--over the years, Hawkeye and others have remarked that he, the Swordsman and the Wasp were the "weakest Avengers." IF the Panther has zero powers, wouldn't he be the weakest Avenger?

I grew up think the Panther was like Spiderman in the sense that he had the proportionate strength and speed of the creature from which he took his name. Now a leopard can climb a tree with an antelope several times his weight, so I would argue that the Panther was originally meant to be similar to that in the strength category. I am not suggesting that the Panther be Hulk-level, but I think being able to bench close to a ton would be about right.

I'd like to see the Panther restored to the level he was at when he first appeared in the FF. Make him impressive. I've seen him shatter metal bonds, leap across city blocks, and travel effortless across rooftops with no ropes, lines, spider weds or wings--so how could he be merely human? Back in the John Buscema days the Panther was always effortlessly picking up grown men and using them as battering rams--so it always appeared to me that he was stronger than human

A guy with no powers is so outdated. I think part of the Panther's mystique is that it's never been clear what his powers are. your thoughts?

Sharky--I sent my stuff to Marvel ten years ago and didn't hear back so I dropped it and went into games (I read that Mark Millar said that trying to break into comics in the 90's was a "nightmare" so that made me feel better!). I don't think I'd want to work there these days--not with Bendis running the show. That would be a fist fight waiting to happen! I wrote a ten part Doctor Doom vs the Avengers story in 2001 and I just went back and re-read it, and I have to say it is very good! Oh well. I love my current job anyway so no big deal.

If Giacola inked those Avengers issues then I definitely have seen his work! Why did he use a pseudonym? I have to say you are extremely knowledgeable about Marvel creator history! I have to learn from you! Now if you ever want to know about trashy pop-culture celebs like Michael Jackson or Patsy Ramsey, I'm your man!

Sharkar--I never even heard of Giacoia! He must have slipped under my radar! Is he better than Palmer? I'll have to check out those Sub-Mariner issues. I never really bought any Sub-Mariner books--I really love the character but I preferred him in team books like the Defenders and the Avengers mainly because he always shook up a team's chemistry!

Thanks Sharkar!