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Post by bobc on May 21, 2009 10:46:25 GMT -5
Hi Guys twogirlsaguyandsomecomics.blogspot.com/search/label/Black%20PantherHave you guys read DL's blog? He sent me a link to his blog where he discusses the Black Panther and I have a question for you all--did you all get the impression over the years that the Black Panther had no super powers? I have to say that when the Panther was first presented he seemed like he was super-powered. He was able to leap across a city block in his first appearance in the Avengers and was able to easily break down a thick oak door with one left handed punch. Also in his first appearance in the FF, he was able to fight the Thing hand-to-hand (yeah the Thing was weakened, but not that much). As many letters over the years have stated in the Avengers letters page, it has been all downhill since then. A person with no super-powers has no business in the Avengers, if true. Over and over in the Avengers and elsewhere, the Black Panther has been said to be "possessor of the Panther Power"--in fact, the Lion God Immortal said so back in the 70's. And in the Panther origin issue of Avengers, T'Challa said that after taking the heart-shaped herb, his strength and speed increased, making him "unstoppable, unconquerable." Ergo--the heart shaped herb did something to his body chemistry. But what? Years after those stories, BP was so disgustingly de-powered that when the Avengers fought the Lava Men, T'Challa passed out from the heat and Captain America commented "The Panther is as tough as nails but doesn't even have the super soldier serum protecting him like I do." What? What happened to the heart-shaped herb and the secret religious rituals the Black Panther took part in to gain his "panther power." Also--over the years, Hawkeye and others have remarked that he, the Swordsman and the Wasp were the "weakest Avengers." IF the Panther has zero powers, wouldn't he be the weakest Avenger? I grew up think the Panther was like Spiderman in the sense that he had the proportionate strength and speed of the creature from which he took his name. Now a leopard can climb a tree with an antelope several times his weight, so I would argue that the Panther was originally meant to be similar to that in the strength category. I am not suggesting that the Panther be Hulk-level, but I think being able to bench close to a ton would be about right. I'd like to see the Panther restored to the level he was at when he first appeared in the FF. Make him impressive. I've seen him shatter metal bonds, leap across city blocks, and travel effortless across rooftops with no ropes, lines, spider weds or wings--so how could he be merely human? Back in the John Buscema days the Panther was always effortlessly picking up grown men and using them as battering rams--so it always appeared to me that he was stronger than human A guy with no powers is so outdated. I think part of the Panther's mystique is that it's never been clear what his powers are. your thoughts?
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Post by freedomfighter on May 21, 2009 11:13:18 GMT -5
www.marvel.com/universe/Black_Panther_(T%27Challa)Direct quote from the page: Powers T'Challa's senses and physical attributes have been enhanced to superhuman levels by the heart-shaped herb. I never thought the Panther was as powerful as you Bob, but I thought he was at least the equal of Cap in terms of strength and stamina. An gifted martial artist can break thick boards and concrete slabs so many of T'Challa's feats do seem possible even if he's not super powered to say Spider Man's level. (btw the scene from a John Byrne Avengers issue you mention is ridiculous. T'Challa, coming from a dense jungle environment with high humidity should be one of the last to fall from heat exposure, not first. Byrne was awful as an Avengers writer...)
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Post by humanbelly on May 21, 2009 11:42:42 GMT -5
[pre-script: I see freedomfighter popped on this at the same time I did-- I'll just add the post below to support him, I s'pose.]
No powers?? No powers?? Well, that's just wrong. I even tracked down the online OHOTMU to double-check. And, yep, it confirms that the ol' heart-shaped herb is the source of T'Challa's superhuman powers (and they use the word "superhuman"). Now, very specific enhanced abilities he has exhibited- that I recall- are an ability to see in the dark (infrared vision?) and feline agility that always allows him to land on his hands and feet. Beyond that, I've always assumed that herb was more-or-less an organic, natural super-soldier serum, so that his strength, endurance, reflexive speed, reaction time, etc is pretty much on a level with Cap's. I believe Cap's comment about the SS Serum "protecting" him was just wrong (I remember that incident, in fact). Cap represents the fully-achieved potential of human physical development. That's as super as he should (well, or did. . .) get. If you can see Cap pressing a ton, than I imagine the Panther could too. Personally, I think that would be a bit beyond them, unless their mothers were pinned under a tractor, or something, and there was that emergency rush of adrenaline.
HB
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Post by dlw66 on May 21, 2009 11:54:38 GMT -5
With all due respect, Tana nile and Sharkar also contribute (and mightily, I might add -- Tana's in charge of site maintenance (making it look pretty) and as you all know, Sharkar is the resident historian who makes sure we are accurate when discussing) -- I'm pretty much just along for the ride!!
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Post by bobc on May 21, 2009 12:18:33 GMT -5
Much love to Tana and Sharky! A public flogging is in order for my failure to mention those two comic GODDESSES!
But guys--listen--I know exactly the site you are talking about that says he is super-powered, but that is the only one. The official Marvel line is that he is has no powers. It's in the Marvel index, and even on the packaging for several of his action figures.
I agree he should be on the same level as Captain America, but I think CA should be substantially stronger than a human being, thanks to the super soldier serum. This whole idea that BP and CA can only lift 750 lbs with "supreme effort" is lame. I mean I can bench 350 lbs ! It's especially absurd when Marvel says they are "as strong as a human can be"-- I mean Paul Anderson, a 50's weight-lifter, squatted 1200 lbs and could bench 700 lbs.
Soooo on top of that, there are reports of people who, in times of extreme stress (in other words, in times of an adrenalin rush), have lifted 3,000 lb automobiles off children--so I would argue that the super-soldier serum and the heart-shaped herb would grant these two strength along that level.
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Post by dlw66 on May 21, 2009 12:26:23 GMT -5
Count me among those who believed the herbs, man, the herbs ( ) gave him his powers. Not sure I'd have placed him in a strength category greater than Cap, but certainly his equal in terms of strength. Probably his superior in the agility category. Stamina -- roughly equal, too. Just my assessment based on following the character through the years. I would add that he would also possess stealth along the lines of Batman, who is almost always depicted as arriving/exiting without anyone noticing.
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Post by bobc on May 21, 2009 12:35:51 GMT -5
I agree DL. I wanna stress here that I don't think BP should be superior in strength to CA--I think both oughtta be upped a bit. If a normal human can squat 1,200 lbs, CA and BP should be able to at least double that.
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Post by bobc on May 21, 2009 12:37:07 GMT -5
I'm not sure about "the herb"--I've taken quite a bit of it over the years and can still only bench 350.
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Post by bobc on May 21, 2009 12:41:52 GMT -5
I also just found a real story of a guy who lifted 4,000 lbs on his back. So my comments about lifting 750 lbs not being "peak human" is correct, and it sure isn't super hero material
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Post by humanbelly on May 21, 2009 13:36:15 GMT -5
Ah- ah- BUT. . . (and I absolutely say this with all due respect, truly)-- I think you may be skipping past the point. Cap (& for the sake of this discussion, let's say BP) isn't supposed to be SUPER-human, he's supposed to be IDEAL human. Absolutely as strong, fast, etc. as a non-superpowered person can be. This becomes almost a schoolyard comparison, but figure that whatever the lifting record is in any given category (bench, military, curl, etc), Cap's going to be able to surpass it by a bit right off the bat (maybe 10%?). Then, the more Cap trains and continues to perfect his already-perfect physique, the more he'll be able to build on that. Truly, what has always been so inspiring about Cap, for me, is that he didn't have powers to fall back on. Just his perfect physical instrument, his skill, and his determination. Gosh, if anything, BP is MORE superhuman than Cap, because of his additional feline powers. But I still doubt he could take Cap down. Hmm-- and there are other non-super Avengers too, of course: Hawkeye, Black Knight, both Swordsmen, Mantis (well, at first-- and remember, she took out Thor once), and Black Widow, to name several. The willingness to acknowledge the value of skill in a member is a smart criterion to hang onto, I believe. But---- I do recognize that we certainly may agree to disagree! Just so's we don't wander into politics. . . . (oy-).
HB
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Post by bobc on May 21, 2009 14:31:28 GMT -5
HB I hear ya--but I'm saying that normal (real) humans have lifted more (1,200 lbs) than what Marvel says a peak human can life (750 lbs). And if real humans are rumored to have lifted 3000 lbs in times of extreme adrenalin rush--wouldn't the super soldier serum mimic that scenario? Just playing devil's advocate here.
And I agree about fighting skills being huge--which brings me to another point. Back when the Panther was cool, he was EASILY the best acrobat on the team--his whole schtick was that he could leap around and evade bullets, whereas CA would usually resort to his shield for protection. I haven't seen the Panther do any spectacular acrobatic feats in decades. Back in the day he was easily the most agile Avenger and that seems to have gone away--I miss it.
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Post by bobc on May 21, 2009 15:33:20 GMT -5
HB--I don't have a problem with non-powered super heroes per se--but all of the super-heroes you mentioned, with the exception of Mantis, had weapons. I recall one letter-to-the-Editor whereas a reader called the panther "nothing more than a Captain America running around without a shield" and said he was too weak to be in the Avengers. The reader also suggested giving T'Challa a weapon. I was glad when Priest gave T'Challa the energy spears, which came in really handy against Ultron on several occasions.
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Post by humanbelly on May 21, 2009 20:57:40 GMT -5
Wellllll, bob, you do make a solid argument, I must say. My gut somehow still maintains that it can't see Cap or T'Challa hoisting a car up in the air, BUT-- it could certainly buy that either of them could tip over a VW Beetle if they really put their back(s) into it. . .
And, you know, your original point is still a valid one. It does seem like BP has powered down over the years (although I must confess I've never followed him too closely). This is really contrary to the normal pattern w/ superheros, who generally do nothing but get gradually stronger with the passage of time-- because there is ALWAYS the need to "top" that last impossible feat of strength. I distinctly remember an old issue of Amazing Spidey (maybe 80 or81?) where he hauled the back end of a car up off the ground to keep the Chameleon or someone from driving off, and it was CLEARLY just about as much as he could handle (I believe Spidey even commented on the strain). Obviously, he could now probably toss a car around if the need presented itself. Hulk gets stronger. Iron Man continually upgrades. What's up w/ T'Challa?
HB
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Post by bobc on May 22, 2009 8:53:27 GMT -5
I don't think he should be strong enough to lift a car and throw it, but I think being abe to lift one off a person. In the epic battle against the Beast Brood back in the 70's the Panther is shown easily lifting a large piece of machinery off of Hawkeye, so that's another example of mixed messages about his strength level.
I know what you're saying about having to top the latest show of strength--and that to me is really boring. I'm not suggesting that at all. But a super hero has to be impressive in some regard--so all I'm saying is I'd like to see his speed and strength and acrobatic abilities be impressive again.
In reading DL, Sharky and Tana's blog, they said things to the effect that the Panther's presence in the Avengers was never really earth-shaking, and I suppose that is true, but he was always my favorite because he looked so mysterious and I loved his catlike abilities (what can I say, I'm an animal lover).
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Post by Tana Nile on May 22, 2009 10:00:06 GMT -5
First off, let me say that DLW does far more than "go along for the ride" on our blog - in fact, Doug regularly initiates our subjects and conversations! It's been a pleasure doing the blog with both him and Sharkar and getting to know the two of them.
As for the Panther, he's one of those characters I've always wanted to see more of in the Avengers. I think he's tricky for the writers though because they always have to explain why the King of Wakanda is hanging out half-way around the world rather than governing his nation.
It does seem like his powers have fluctuated over the years. I always got the impression that he and Cap were on par physically and that both of them were the very peak of human perfection. I also thought the Panther had heightened senses (unlike Cap). In recent times T'Challa has also been depicted as using more technology - in his own series during civil war for example, he had quite a number of gadgets and suits - which I think was part of the whole "Batman" riff they had going for awhile.
Personally I'd like to see T'Challa be at the peak of human strength and endurance, with perhaps greater than human agility, and hearing similar to Daredevil, sense of smell similar to Wolverine, and perhaps some ability to see in the dark - very cat-like and appropriate.
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Post by bobc on May 22, 2009 10:13:37 GMT -5
Tana--will you marry me?
I agree completely with every word. I like the tech gadgets because that was part of the Panther ethic back when he appeared first in the FF. He was on par with Reed Richards in that sense. That being said, I don't think the gadgets should over-power the catlike abilities--and that has absolutely happened in the past five or six years. Has he even done any acrobatics in the past ten years? I can't recall any.
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Post by dlw66 on May 22, 2009 10:27:30 GMT -5
My Panther moment comes from Avengers #159, when Graviton has defeated the team and has them prisoner on a self-made asteroid-thingy he's lifted out of the earth. When it is beginning to look pretty dire, who makes a return to the team but T'Challa? This starts off a good stretch for him with the Avengers, through both parts of the Bride of Ultron story as well as the well-done Atlantis epic that ran through Avengers and Super-Villain Team-Up.
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Post by bobc on May 22, 2009 10:50:25 GMT -5
I think my favorite was when he fought the Man Ape solo back in the 60's.
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Post by ultron69 on May 22, 2009 11:17:40 GMT -5
He sent me a link to his blog where he discusses the Black Panther and I have a question for you all--did you all get the impression over the years that the Black Panther had no super powers? I was under the impression that his mystical herb was the herbal equivalent of Captain America's super soldier- formula, giving him, not true super powers, per se, but putting him at the very limits of what a non-super powered human can do. It did seem like his senses were very sharp, though. I remember once where they were underground fighting the Mole Man (I think) and he was the only one who could see in the dark.
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Post by bobc on May 22, 2009 11:59:02 GMT -5
Yeah--they were fighting troglodytes though, not the Mole Man! T'Challa saved the day. I was so proud! Hee hee!
Re: his senses, Yeah T'Challa is right up there with Wolverine in terms of his sense of smell, and he superior to him in terms of sight and hearing. Only Daredevil surpasses him. Except for the sight thing. T'Challa definitely come out on top in that category!
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Post by sharkar on May 25, 2009 20:02:38 GMT -5
What a great discussion about an underrated (IMO) character--very interesting comments, everyone! In reading DL, Sharky and Tana's blog, they said things to the effect that the Panther's presence in the Avengers was never really earth-shaking, and I suppose that is true, but he was always my favorite because he looked so mysterious and I loved his catlike abilities (what can I say, I'm an animal lover). First of all, bob, an exalt to you for "Sharky" ;D--I know you've used it before and I kept meaning to comment on it, so now's as good a time as any. Y'know, that's the nicest name anyone called me in years... Re the Panther's initial stint with the Avengers: The Panther is a fascinating character, but during the Panther's initial tenure with the Avengers, Roy never seemed to know what to do with him. It seems like the way Roy "solved" this problem was by featuring the Panther in more or less solo adventures (as in #62, #73-74, #78 and #87). And as time went on, and Roy began to use Cap, Thor and Iron Man more, T'Challa basically became a part-time Avenger. Roy also concentrated on the Vision... all of which made T'Challa the odd man out. A pity. Roy has gone on record as saying the Avengers (to him) were Cap, Iron Man, and Thor, so the Panther's initial tenure with the Avengers may have been more Stan's idea....since at the conclusion of T'Challa's appearances with Cap in Tales of Suspense/Captain America (written by Stan), Cap asked the Avengers to accept T'Challa (which segued into Avengers #52). So it seems Stan wanted to make sure T'Challa was showcased on a regular basis, so why not put him in the Avengers...but (and this conjecture on my part) maybe Roy felt forced to put T'Challa on the team. This may have in part accounted for Roy's disinclination to really develop T'Challa ( the Luke Charles scenes were promising, but these abruptly ended and went nowhere in the Avengers) and the progression toward part-time status. Re the Panther's panther senses: In Avengers #59, I always found it strange that T'Challa with his panther senses didn't immediately discern that YJ is Hank (as the story unfolded back in the 1960s). A few months earlier, after all, in Cap #114 (written by Stan), T'Challa easily recognized Cap from afar (and Cap is in civilian clothes). Now I just mentioned Avengers #59 in which T'Challa fails to recognize Hank. An alternate telling of this story is related in the 2007 Earth's Mightiest Heroes 2 limited series (collected in EMH Volume 2). Here, T'Challa (and the other Avengers) do recognize Hank in his YJ guise (which makes more sense). I enjoyed EMH volume 2 and it's especially worth picking up if you're a T'Challa fan; he's featured in a subplot that centers on his teaching duties, and this is the T'Challa I know: smart, noble, principled, athletic. A far cry from the travesty I read a few years ago in the X-Men/Black Panther crossover in which T'Challa was depicted as a womanizing, arrogant jerk. And a bonus: EMH volume 2 is inked by--yes, Mr. Tom Palmer (whom, I'm sure I don't have to mention, we've discussed recently on these very boards)!
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Post by bobc on May 26, 2009 9:14:09 GMT -5
Sharky--yeah, BP not recognizing YJ immediately was dumb--but back in those days writers came up with a story and didn't let minor issues stand in the way! BP not recognizing him is about as dumb as Jan not just telling everybody "LOOK--Yellowjacket IS Hank, ya big dummies." That, of course, would have prevented a bunch of hard feelings and fist fights--but who wants to read a goody goody story. Back in those days the Avengers fought each other more than they fought villains.
The Black Panther's senses, like his other abilities, have been all over the place over the years. As you pointed out, he couldn't recognize YJ by his scent (or voice for that matter) but in his original appearance in the FF, T'Challa could find the Invisible Girl by scent alone. In later years (issue 120-something) The Panther says "once I learn a scent I never forget it" and tracks a T-Rex back to Magneto's underground lair (and, I might point out, Daredevil was along on that mission and didn't seem to smell anything unusual---hmmm). There were times when BP's senses bordered on the supernatural--like when he senses the Grandmaster appearing before Kang did back in the late 60's) and T'Challa was always the Avenger who "sensed danger" and warned the others.
In Secret Wars--it was clear that his olfactory sense was on exactly the same par as Wolverine's, as they both sensed the prize at the same time (and it was buried underground)
In the 90's when the Avengers fought Ultron, the Panther tracked the kidnapped Avengers underground--but said his senses weren't "THAT good" to be able to tell who he was tracking (?).
So like I said, his senses are all over the place.
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Post by freedomfighter on May 26, 2009 15:43:36 GMT -5
Sharky--yeah, BP not recognizing YJ immediately was dumb--but back in those days writers came up with a story and didn't let minor issues stand in the way! BP not recognizing him is about as dumb as Jan not just telling everybody "LOOK--Yellowjacket IS Hank, ya big dummies." That, of course, would have prevented a bunch of hard feelings and fist fights--but who wants to read a goody goody story. Back in those days the Avengers fought each other more than they fought villains. The Black Panther's senses, like his other abilities, have been all over the place over the years. As you pointed out, he couldn't recognize YJ by his scent (or voice for that matter) but in his original appearance in the FF, T'Challa could find the Invisible Girl by scent alone. In later years (issue 120-something) The Panther says "once I learn a scent I never forget it" and tracks a T-Rex back to Magneto's underground lair (and, I might point out, Daredevil was along on that mission and didn't seem to smell anything unusual---hmmm). There were times when BP's senses bordered on the supernatural--like when he senses the Grandmaster appearing before Kang did back in the late 60's) and T'Challa was always the Avenger who "sensed danger" and warned the others. In Secret Wars--it was clear that his olfactory sense was on exactly the same par as Wolverine's, as they both sensed the prize at the same time (and it was buried underground) In the 90's when the Avengers fought Ultron, the Panther tracked the kidnapped Avengers underground--but said his senses weren't "THAT good" to be able to tell who he was tracking (?). So like I said, his senses are all over the place. that scene with wolverine took place in contest in champions I believe. another silly bit where wolverine had him pinned with contemptuous ease...
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Post by bobc on May 26, 2009 16:07:45 GMT -5
Yeah you are right--Free. It was Contest of Champions. I didn't get how Wolverine could pin the Panther, seeing that the Panther is twice as strong as he is. I think they've upped Wolverine's strength level somewhat recently, but at the time Wolverine was supposed to be just human level, strength-wise
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Post by bobc on May 26, 2009 16:16:29 GMT -5
From the Marvel Index regarding Wolverine's strength level:
Strength Level: While Wolverine may be of an advanced age, he possesses the normal human strength of a man in his prime with his height and build who engages in intensive regular exercise. While possessing the adamantium skeleton, Wolverine's strength was increased to the human maximum, making him capable of lifting (pressing) 800 lbs.
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Post by dlw66 on May 26, 2009 16:18:24 GMT -5
So like I said, his senses are all over the place. Seems that artists have a style guide/model sheet so they get the costumes correct. Fans were given Handbooks/Who's Who type books so they got the height-weight and backstories correct. Why can't the writers stick to some prescribed parameters? Why does every hack nowadays (and I realize part of what we are discussing is Silver and Bronze Age history -- so maybe just consider it sloppinesson the part of editorial?) think they have carte blanche to write "canon" stories? Do no writers have an appreciation of history?
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Post by bobc on May 26, 2009 16:19:48 GMT -5
Having metal bones does NOT make a person stronger and Wolverine doesn't have any heart-shaped herb or super soldier serum working for him. And I distinctly recall W's strength level being at around 450 lbs when he first came out. Typical of marvels' "It's all about Wolverine" and their indifference towards the Panther
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Post by bobc on May 27, 2009 8:18:43 GMT -5
Just found another example of T'Challa's nearly supernaturally acute senses--in the 1960's issue where the Avengers rescue the Black Knight (#56 maybe?), the Panther senses Doctor Strange appearing from the ether, saying he "senses an alien presence."
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Post by Crimson Cowl on May 27, 2009 13:40:59 GMT -5
I would have to favour the view that the Black Panther possesses no superhuman powers (with the possible exception of his senses). The herb should make him roughly equivalent in physical terms to Captain America. I don't think that should mean that they can break weightlifting records though. They are both gymnasts and to have that build they couldn't realistically match the feats of strength of the best specialist lifters IMO. As for Wolverine I believe he was listed as beig able to 'lift/press' 500lb's in the old MU Deluxe Edition (the same as Hawkeye, and a bit more than Daredevil). The Panther was listed as 750lb's (I think that may have been 800lb's- the same as Cap- in the first edition). Wolverine's strength going up is naturally a ridiculous development merely reflecting the character's popularity. It's nothing like as absurd as how much more effective his healing factor became over time though! Wolverine does have truly superhuman senses though and I'd think they're a bit more acute than the Panther's. It's Daredevil that is surely the champ in this respect though? I'd think of the Panther as being outstandingly agile, even more so than Cap. I'd think Spidey and the Beast would have the edge here as they're genuinely superhuman in this respect. Surely the Panther is the stealthiest character in Marvel. No one springs to mind who can match him in that respect. The Panther is an expert combatant too. I'd reckon that only Cap, Daredevil and maybe Iron Fist can rival him in this regard. I like to imagine that his fighting style would be similar to capoiera (and some believe that may have evolved from traditional African martial arts). Here's a nice example of Tony Jaa fighting a capoierista for anyone who isn't familiar with the style: Do you think this style suits him? Personally I reckon that if they were to put the Panther in a movie then this guy (Lateef Crowder, I believe) should wear the suit! Anyway, Captain America's never needed powers and I don't see why the Panther should either. He's awesome as he is. Sadly it is true that Avengers writers have rarely managed to take advantage of this fact.
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Post by bobc on May 27, 2009 15:32:03 GMT -5
Crimson--THANK YOU. I thought I was going crazy because I told people on this forum that the Panther used to be able to lift 800lbs, the same as CA, but then suddenly it was changed in later editions of the MU Index. Nobody remembered that but me! I also recall Wolverine being in the 500lb range, and now that changed too. Thanks for the backup on that!
I agree that Daredevil is the champ in the senses category, but on the other hand as I already stated, there have been many many times when the Panther has been shown to be able to detect supernatural presences--which is something I can't recall DD ever doing (Could be wrong there). Now the Panther vs Wolverine--I'd call it a draw.
In regards to his agility, the Beast himself, before he went furry, fought the Panther and Hank said "You are equally agile as I, but you can't match my strength"--so who am I to argue with him? I'll call them equal. And I agree BP is slightly more agile and faster than Captain America.
Stealth--yeah BP is #1, with the exception of Sue Richards hee hee
When it comes to hand-to-hand combat, I think BP's style should be completely different from CA's--all acrobatics mainly (like the vid by the way) because that style is visually exciting.
I agree that Spiderman is probably faster than BP--being seriously superhuman.
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