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Post by Shiryu on Aug 10, 2007 14:09:21 GMT -5
Glad to be contributing to an enjoyable conversation. It's at least as nice to make as it is to read. Today I arrived to issue #58 "Even an android can cry". I'll read a few more this evening (which is late afternoon for most of you guys) and post more comments.
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Hourman
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 83
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Post by Hourman on Aug 10, 2007 15:24:22 GMT -5
It's so funny, one of the reasons I discovered this site is because I'm re-reading my old Avengers comic books, and here you guys are catching up via ROM...
And yeah, I'm an old schooler as well.. I love the exposition and the nicknames: "High pockets", "Man Mountain", "Goldilocks", "Shellhead", "Shield-slinger" and so on...
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Post by sharkar on Aug 10, 2007 16:24:39 GMT -5
And yeah, I'm an old schooler as well.. I love the exposition and the nicknames: "High pockets", "Man Mountain", "Goldilocks", "Shellhead", "Shield-slinger" and so on... ;DI like it when Cap is referred to "the star-spangled Avenger"...as in #47, when the caption says something like "Suddenly, the star-spangled Avenger whirls, and..." EDIT: I just checked the Essentials and it's actually "Suddenly, the star-spangled crusader whirls..." The use of "star-spangled" and "whirls"--this struck me as hilarious years ago (it's a scene in which Cap announces he is leaving the Avengers and it's oh so dramatic). I am finding it interesting reading this discourse between a younger reader coming to these stories en masse for the first time, and a "seasoned veteran" giving the long-stander's POV. Carry on! Glad to be contributing to an enjoyable conversation. It's at least as nice to make as it is to read. This is a particularly fun, absorbing and interesting exchange for me too. Thanks!!! As many people have stated, there's really a great community here and this is just additional proof (not that any more was needed).
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Post by Shiryu on Aug 13, 2007 17:32:15 GMT -5
So, I'm well into Thomas run now, about issue #76 (after the second Sons of the Serpent story).
I have to say, there has been quite a dramatic improvement in both stories and art, which was already quite good. The early Buscema is not quite as good as in the second part of the Stern run, but still a pleasure to look at. Also the filler artists' style doesn't look too different from his, which gives a much appreciated feeling of continuity.
The stories were one masterpiece after the other. After a rather lame X-Men crossover (I have the X-Men scanned collection, but didn't care to go to read the issues over there, because the villain Magneto looks so monodimensional right now that it just didn't feel interesting), I was slightly disappointed by the Ultron / Masters of Evil one, because having Ultron dress up like that and organize a group of villains, making them believe that the boss is Jarvis all along doesn't fully make sense. I can see it from the author's POV, but still seems unnecessary complicated.
However, the Vision issues were really good. Seeing him walk through the wall and terrorize the Wasp, then showing off his powers and finally joining was definitely nice. I also liked having the Big 3 back, to consider him joining and test his powers.
I suppose that both stories lost some power having been read decades later for the first time. I basically knew that Jarvis was innocent, that Ultron would have been back and that the Vision would have joined, but this didn't spoil them too much.
The same can be said for the first Yellow Jacket story. Having the Circus of Crime, of all people, trying to spoil the wedding, was so so, but after all the story was about Hank and didn't need too important villains. Not quite a masterpiece like the previous one, but still good.
After this, there was a small bunch of so-so stories. A Dr.Strange crossover, which makes Surtur look like a bit of a joke, a funny Black Panther story (with the 1st Man-Ape, for Dlw's delight ;D) and Hawkeye becoming Goliath. I suppose that the roster is actually what I like the least about these stories. Vision is very good, but the team doesn't feel like Avengers without at least 1 of the big 3 in there. The fact that they come back for the more important stories makes up for it a little.
The stories dealing with Clint's past were interesting. The change in Goliath felt very quick and rather pointless, and the same goes for the Black Widow going back to the costume, but Clint's brother's death was well done. Also, one of the first issues of Avengers I read is the one where he accidentally kills Egghead and then remembers his brother, so it was nice to actually see it happening.
The return of Ultron, now in adamantium, the 1st Grandmaster and the return of Kang bring the epics up again. 5 really good issues, to read in one go holding the breath, and as I mentioned above, I was glad to have Cap and Thor back from them. After them the second Sons of the Serpent story feels a bit like a letdown, but it was bound to be I suppose.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Aug 13, 2007 20:17:20 GMT -5
EDIT: I just checked the Essentials and it's actually "Suddenly, the star-spangled crusader whirls..." The use of "star-spangled" and "whirls"--this struck me as hilarious years ago I picture Lynda Carter…
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Post by Shiryu on Aug 16, 2007 18:39:02 GMT -5
I have finally completed Thomas' run and begun Englehart one's. Despite a few setbacks here and there, Thomas run was quite a crescendo, getting better and better and usually being susteined by quality art. My favourite part of it remains the 10 or so issues with the creation of the Vision, his joining, adamantium Ultron, the Grandmaster and the Squadrone Supreme / Sinister. Things I didn't quite like were the change of Hawkeye into Goliath and the lack of Cap, Thor and Iron Man, which luckily decreased towards the end of the run. The Kree-Skrull war of course was quite a standalone epic. However, having read it before, and knowing how things would have developed, it lost some of its impact on me. Van's book nicely highlighted how the war was the first time many things happened, but having seen quite a lot of them happen over and over again, it was difficult to push away a feeling of deja-vu (this is what they call reverse deja-vu I suppose : . Sadly, were I to list my 15 or so favourite Avengers big battles, it wouldn't be there now, while more recent stories (Infinity Gems, JLA crossover, Kang's dinasty) would. Anyway, my favourite chapter in it is the Journey inside the Vision one. The very early Englehart issues haven't been too impressive. Hawkeye leaving and the introduction of Imus Champion were so so, but it was nice seeing when Vision and Wanda finally got together (it took much longer than I expected. Having started to read the Avengers when they were a happily married couple, this felt somewhat strange). I'm going reading other 2 or 3 issues right now ;D PS was issue #101 the first filler in the book or something like that? It was a very weird story
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Post by sharkar on Aug 16, 2007 20:14:13 GMT -5
Re #101: It does seem like it's out of continuity, doesn't it? That's probably because it came from an outside source. It was adapted from a story by Harlan Ellison, the writer who is known for his work in sci fi and other genres. He wrote some Star Trek episodes too! Ellison by his own admission has always loved comics and he was credited with the story that appeared in the Avengers #88/Hulk #140 crossover a couple of years earlier. He was pleased with how Marvel handled his work, so he gave Marvel the rights to his story "Five Dooms to Save Tomorrow." Roy Thomas adapted the story for #101, but it's essentially a stand alone and does not really connect to earlier events. You may have already read another filler issue (this time because of the art): #105. Then-regular artist Rich Buckler could not finish the pencils for #105 (because of the impending birth of his child--Rich Buckler Jr.!), so Marvel hastily summoned Big John Buscema to pencil a fill-in issue. The only instruction to John was that the issue had to end with the Vision brooding while sitting in a chair, since that's what Buckler had penciled to start his story. So it ended up that what Buckler had penciled was used for #106, and John's pencils were used for #105...I thought JB's work was perfect for the atmospheric trip to the Savage Land. BTW, Ellison is the basis for the "Harlequin Ellis" character in JLA #89; among other things, "Harlequin" has a mad crush on Black Canary. Ellison reportedly liked the story. Interesting you should say Englehart's first issues weren't too impressive, Shiryu; I felt the same way. I recall not liking his dialogue for some of the characters, such as Wanda. I didn't understand some of the references he made (quotes from EC Comics, etc.). I thought he used too many puns. His writing in general was lot less formal than Roy Thomas' had been, and at first it was a shock (after all, Roy had been the Avengers writer since #35). But I began to understand Englehart's rhythm, humor and his take on the characters, and as he progressed, I started to appreciate his work.
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Hourman
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 83
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Post by Hourman on Aug 17, 2007 9:06:22 GMT -5
You're also about to go into an interesting run with Dave Cockrum doing some penciling and inking sporatically on Avengers issues.
Because I also read the X-Men, it's pretty easy to spot his work, but when it is combined with Rich Buckler and later Bob Brown, it makes for some pretty nice art.
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Post by Shiryu on Aug 17, 2007 9:29:49 GMT -5
Thanks for the explanation, Sharkar I'm at issue #120 now, but was rather taken by the stories and didn't always pay too much attention to the art (except for when Thor and Quicksilver sported some completely asymmetrical eyes ). I also noticed that the Black Widow has her present look now, quite different from the original one (costume, hair style, even hair colour), but no one commented on it in the book itself... So far the Englehart run keeps being so so. The issue I liked the most was "Young men shall slay the Vision", with some really nice storytelling and characterization, especially when Tony and Don Blake revealed knowing each other secret IDs. I also liked having the Panther torn between going back home and staying with the team, while angry Wanda is a bit too angry for my taste, snapping on anyone around. Crossovers are starting to become a bit annoying. I have the original DVD or a scanned collection for most series, but not the various "marvel premiere" "marvel presents" etc, and overall it's boring having to take the discs in an out, in fact I didn't bother reading Daredevil #99 where it was supposed to go. The introduction of Mantis and Swordsman joining the group have been nice. Most Avengers were a bit too quick to accept them (I wonder if Doom goes and asks for membership, would they accept him so easily as well?), but overall it seems to work. Neither is a favourite of mine, but I know they won't stay long, so it's ok.
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Post by sharkar on Aug 19, 2007 20:10:02 GMT -5
I also noticed that the Black Widow has her present look now, quite different from the original one (costume, hair style, even hair colour), but no one commented on it in the book itself... Some of the Avengers had already seen her "new look" first-hand a couple of years earlier, in Avengers #83 (1970- the Lady Liberators issue), and assuming she'd been in the news in the intervening years (which is what was implied in both her Amazing Adventures solo strip and the DD issues), her look- -now roughly two years old at the time of the Avengers issues you mention- -should not have come as a surprise. So, having said that, here's what bothers me... In 1972, Hawkeye did mention the change in her look, in the book Shiryu mentions in his post, DD #99—this was the lead-in to Avengers #111 (and it’s included in the Avengers Essentials vol.5). In DD #99, Hawkeye comments to Natasha that she looks different and he says something about her new costume and hair. BUT he's already been shown to have seen her new look earlier, in Avengers #83. Now, it’s true he and Natasha were not shown to be closely interacting in #83, but they were both shown in a few panels together along with other characters, and it’s clear they were in proximity to one another. So why would he act like he'd never seen her red hair and new costume in DD #99? And even when they appeared in #83: IIRC, there was at least one published letter after #83 asking why Hawkeye didn’t react when he saw Natasha(she’d recently dumped him, in Avengers #76). The official editorial answer was that it “hurt” too much for Hawkeye to acknowledge her presence in #83. Yeah, right!! IMO, it was sloppy writing and more than a little surprising coming from a continuity/relationship maven like Roy Thomas. This kind of sloppiness brings to mind Avengers #32, in which Hawkeye is practicing his archery and does not have his mask on. Natasha, who has recently made a reappearance in his life, bursts in on him and says something like “Hawkeye! Even without your mask on I’d recognize you anywhere!” Oh come on..she'd never seen him maskless before? Look, even if he was kinky and kept on his mask during their intimate encounters, a year earlier in a Tales of Suspense story #60 (1965), there was a scene in which he was shown for several panels without his mask and they’re hugging, etc. Both the TOS and the Avengers story were written by Stan, and I understand that with all the writing and editing chores, and his self-admitted poor memory, he did not remember details like this, but readers do… BTW, while acknowledging that BW's new look (unveiled in Spider-Man #86, 1970) was probably based on Diana Rigg's Mrs. Peel, I'd always thought it was also more than a little influenced by the Barbara Gordon Batgirl, what with the sleek black bodysuit with yellow trimmings, and long red hair. I loved that scene too (just read this issue a couple of years ago myself, I did not read it when it was first published). Another example of Englehart poking fun at the accepted comic book conventions of the time (as well as providing character and story development). Also, while I'm not a huge fan of Bob Brown's, I thought he did a great job depicting Tony, Don and T'Challa in those scenes; they looked very appealing.
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Post by Shiryu on Aug 20, 2007 16:50:24 GMT -5
You are right about #83 (although I hadn't noticed any comment on her look change there either), that's the first time she has her definitive look in the Avengers' book, and also sounds more like her present self compared to the early issues. Anyway, I'm at issue #140 now (should rename this thread "Avengers ROM and Shiryu's comments on V1 ;D). As I understand from Van's book, this is coming towards the end of Englehart run, and his writing and pacing has indeed improved dramatically. The stories are so interconnected that I often start with the idea of only reading one issue, and then read 4 or 5 (which is not a good thing when you read a 4 am before going to bed ^^'). The main thing of course has been the focus of Mantis and the Swordsman, leading to the triangle with the Vision and Wanda and the Celestial Madonna issues. The Swordsman himself is now competing with the Hulk in my list of useless Avengers. Despite having been a decent villain, he didn't really make much of a difference in the group. He got injured in the Defenders crossover and ever since was out of action for one reason or another, so his main contribute was towards the releationship sides of the story. Funny enough, I didn't much like the jelous Wanda from these issues either. First she was angry because they couldn't find Quicksilver, then because the other Avengers were "just human", then with Vision over Mantis... she needed a camomile! I much preferred the Vision and Mantis angles of the story. Vision's struggle with humanity and love were nicely built, and Mantis growing attraction towards him had the good pace, never feeling rushed or excessive (infact I had heard so much about this "releationship" that I thought her avances would have been much stronger). After a rather silly Collector appearance, there were also some nice battles, especially with the Zodiac, the Stalker, and, especially, Kang. There were also some more crossovers (especially with Giant Size Avengers, which I luckily have on file), some selling tricks are not new really ^^ The Celestial Madonna issues and the part with Immortus and the Legion of the Unleaving were my favourite of this part. I like the issues exploring the past and history of the MU, so it was definitely interesting reading the origin of the Vision and the story of the Krees and the Cotati. I had the impression that the Krees were "nicer" than the Skrulls, perhaps because of Cap Marvel, but that story completely changed my mind. This being said, I read it all in one go in an hour, but I suppose that having 3 or 4 issues with not much happening in the present must have been frustrating at the time. A definite highlight was Thor's reaction to Iron Man's death at the hands of Kang. It was interesting because is shows how strong Tony and Thor's friendship was at the time. I have always been convinced that Cap is (was?) Thor's best friend among humans, and I still think that, at present (ish) and in the last 20 years or so this was the case, but in the beginning his bond with Tony was just as strong, if not stronger. I suppose this is the Tony who hasn't gone through alcoholism, armors' war and grey phases yet, and he definitely comes across very nicely and not like his later self. There is also some constant friendly joking between the two of them when they are the oldest team members, and argue over membership, chairmainship, orders etc ;D) And Tony has a faceplate with the nose!! Having Thor and IM as regulars definitely helps as well, it gives the team a sense of power that they didn't quite have in the Thomas run pre Kree-Skrull war, despite roster changes. I'm a bit less happy with Hawkeye, who is behaving more like a jerk recently, and I miss Cap, but once again Iron-Man, Thor and Vision make up for it. The last issues I've read had the return of a YJ who looks nearly on the edge of breakdown already. Truly Thor is right when he comments "to think he helped found the Avengers", Hank is already behaving quite erratically and is constantly angry and aggressive. The Vision made one of the funniest phrases ever when he came out in swimming suit sorely embarassed ("I don't feel gorgeous, I just feel embarassed!" ) and yet again when he cuts his honeymoon really short, much to his teammates surprise. Finally the Beast, who has been the main focus of the book in the last few issues, saving the day or heavily contributing almost every time (except for a very weird #136, that had little to nothing to do with the Avengers... I think it actually was a reprint from another book!).
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 20, 2007 19:58:12 GMT -5
#136 was a reprint from the Beast's appearance in the Amazing Adventures mag -- I believe it reprints that book's issue #16.
I, too, really love the books you cite, as they were the first I bought from the newstand as a youngster. Issue #130 was particularly memorable to me cover-wise. I especially love the battle royale in #139 between Hank and the Whirlwind, which I've commented on seemingly endlessly!
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Post by The Night Phantom on Aug 21, 2007 22:22:59 GMT -5
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Post by Shiryu on Aug 22, 2007 18:25:21 GMT -5
[quote author=dlw66 board=classicavengers thread=1134917513 post=1187657892 I especially love the battle royale in #139 between Hank and the Whirlwind, which I've commented on seemingly endlessly![/quote] Agree, it's quite a battle, and it also hints somewhat to the direction Hank will move to (not the slapping, but the unwillingness to be a superhero and the tendency to crack under stress). I just finished the Englehart run. The last saga, with the Squadron Supreme + Thor and Moondragon in the past was very good. I'm just quite sorry that Thor leaves the team now, I liked him there! Best moment(s): A tie between Thor lashing out against Orka and reminding him, and himself, that he is a God, and the Vision's dry humour when dealing with Hyperion. Worse moment: Hellcat. Talking about "not Avengers material"... Your everyday girl suddenly gets a costume that gives her special abilities (after having screwed up twice in the last hour) and she is invited to join the Avengers, Earth's Mightiest on day one?? Wolverine makes more sense in comparison
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Post by sharkar on Aug 22, 2007 19:44:40 GMT -5
I wrote that based that on some insider info, NP; but yes- -officially, this celebrated episode is known as the one Star Trek (orig. series) written by H.E. He also wrote some scripts for other TV shows, including Burke's Law, The Outer Limits and others. Prolific guy. Back to "City:" both H.E.'s original script, and the revised TV teleplay (which he famously denounced), won awards and the finsiehed product was certainly memorable...so it's too bad the experience left such a bad taste in his mouth and led to the feud with Roddenberry. Anyway, I'm at issue #140 now (should rename this thread "Avengers ROM and Shiryu's comments on V1 ;D). Yes, you should! You're certainly providing a lot of interesting reading and I for one am enjoying the details you're highlighting. I just read these issues a couple of years ago (after a decades-long hiatus from comics) and I too remember being shocked at IM's "new look." How long did that look last??
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Post by Shiryu on Aug 22, 2007 19:59:01 GMT -5
Until Avengers #150 and Iron-Man #85
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Post by sharkar on Aug 22, 2007 20:13:06 GMT -5
That's a relief. I'm glad Tony came to his senses relatively quickly and realized it was not the most becoming look for him...thanks for the info, Shiryu!
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Post by Shiryu on Aug 27, 2007 9:26:44 GMT -5
Oook, I've finished the Englehart run and almost done with the first Shooter run as well. I already knew the Bride of Ultron and Korvac saga storylines, which made things a bit quicker.
Once again I mostly have very positive comments. The return of Wonder Man was rather unlogical but still well handled, and the Vision got some interesting characterization when dealing for the first time with his "brother". The Grim Reaper making a trial to decide which of the two was really his brother was well handled too (but I really wonder why the bad guys never kill the team when they have the chance ^^).
I especially liked the stories with Graviton and Nefaria, with the sudden appearances of Thor to save the day or give an helping hand. Wonder Man dealing with his own mortality was nice too, and Ultron was, of course, stunning.
The Beast was a bit of a downside. After the early issues, he hasn't really done much besides a couple of almost solo issues. I was expecting more from him, hopefully it will come.
The Two-Gun Kid has been a much bigger letdown. Does he really have Avengers membership? he only helps the team (a bit) once, when they battle Kang in the past, nothing else. He basically only comes back to go back to his time in the middle of the Korvac saga, so he feels like an occasional ally at best, definitely not a team member. It's a bit like with Hellcat a few issues ago, if fighting alongside the group once is enough, then the all MU should be part of it. This being said, maybe he did more in some solo book with Hawkeye and I'm not aware of it, I'm only reading the main Avengers book and some annuals and crossovers.
As for the Korvac saga, I remember opening a topic on it waaay back when I first came to the forum, so I won't comment too long here. However, it shows how effective a long running plot can be without needing to sacrifice action or sideplots. The Korvac saga can be (and has been) easily transferred to TPB, but the individual issues still have side battles (Tyrak), references to future problems (Gyrich) etc.
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Hourman
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 83
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Post by Hourman on Aug 27, 2007 13:10:19 GMT -5
You've now hit on the run where I first discovered the Avengers... #160-167 are seared into my brain has THE Avengers, because it was there that my initial impressions of the team were formed -especially when Ultron makes his appearence and the constant references to their deep and rich history (Count Nefaria from #13, the Lethal Legion, Grim Reaper, Ant-Man and of course, Ultron).
I still revel over that battle with Ultron in #161, with the angry Scarlet Witch, and Ultron striking her down with the comment, "Die, woman!"
Even more impressive was the final panel upshot of Jarvis returning home to find the Avengers seemingly dead all over the floor (kudoes to Perez showing each member prone in the exact same position they fell during the battle, as well as the usual "Perez debris" scattred about) and the simple phrase uttered "God Help Us...")
I tell you, that was the longest month to this anxious 10 year old wondering how they would get out of this...
I don't believe Two-Gun was ever considered an Avenger... yes, he helped out vs. Kang, but other than being kidnapped by the Collector, he really doesn't serve much more than being a reason for Hawk to be out of the group...
I agree about Hellcat as well... although she became a better Defender than Avenger. It looked like more of a reason to bring back The Cat for whatever reason than anything else.
I was wondering what you thought of the Whizzer... he reappears for the first time since Giant Sized Avengers #1, and was involved in a lot of the stories up until #173 when he calmly tells Iron Man that he wasn't a superhero any longer.
I agree with you that the return of Wonder Man was illogical, but #160 and #164 do a pretty good job explaining his return, although the Black Talon aspect seems sort of silly... is that what it took to get him to finish the transformation?
The Beast does become a better character later on... getting him to be a ladies man helps out, but even he points out his inital struggles with the Avengers until people like Wonder Man start becoming the "why am I such a screw up?" character of the book...
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Post by Shiryu on Aug 27, 2007 17:03:38 GMT -5
I must admit that, reading the issues one after the other, usually 5 or 6 at the time, I don't realize how much waiting there must have been at the time. I sometimes read an year of stories in one afternoon! Besides, knowing that the characters would survive, that ending lost some impact on me, but I'm sure at the time it must have felt heart stopping! Did you (or anyone else) thought they were really dead?
As for Two Gun Kid, he is considered an onorary Avenger in volume 3, and appears with all the other Avengers in the JLA crossover (just one panel, where he is blown away ^^).
As for the Whizzer, somehow I don't mind him. I think that being a war hero, very old and with a weak heart, but still willing to fight, gives him credit. Also, I appreciate that he is not there at every issue, trying to revive his youth or join the Avengers, but only appears occasionally, accepting his present status. As an occasional guest star, he is ok.
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Hourman
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 83
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Post by Hourman on Aug 28, 2007 12:12:36 GMT -5
Well, the Vision is missing for four issues (even if one is a fill-in) so that's four months of not knowing in that summer of 1977 (but I was also seeing Star Wars every other week, LOL!).
They did reveal that the other Avengers weren't dead in #162, when Ultron was surprised to see Wonder Man, so yeah it was a pretty quick turn around of emotions (and granted, I knew at least Cap couldn't be dead -he had his own book!)
But, the emotions of those level of foes the Avengers were battling at the time -Ultron, Nefaria, even the powered-up Lethal Legion at least to me, had an impact that these villians would crush most heroes w/o batting an eye -so I guess in my mind that's what made the Avengers the creme of superhero groups... which brings up another point:
I forgot they made Two-Gun an honorary Avenger, but I guess that's why I get frustrated at some of the people they've made Avengers (i.e. Dr. Druid, Deathcry, et al). This is supposed to be the elite superteam, and yet some writers just throw in any hero/heroine who they think might be popular or because they are new, and they end up being lousy Avengers or just forgetable characters (i.e. Rage).
Two Gun was just a friend to Hawkeye who helped out against Kang... he wasn't an Avenger, and really could add nothing to the group... he didn't even have much of a personality.
As you said, the Whizzer at least had the credentials of being a WWII vet, even if he was a knockoff of the GA Flash... he also had the added "personality" of a hero with a heart condidtion who was beleived to be Wanda and Pietro's dad and fought along side of Namor.
He could be intergrated in stories and play a substancial role in some plot lines, unlike Two Gun.
And as you pointed out, he accepts his role, and doesn't have Byrne mucking with him by having him rediscover some sort of fountian of youth (a la Spitfire in Namor).
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 28, 2007 12:44:29 GMT -5
Congrats to Hourman for the 200th post in this thread, the second such thread to attain that lofty status. Van and Shiryu: let's not get carried away and start over with a #1 . I could say this in any number of threads, but since it's the comment at the end of the previous post that leads me to say it I'll leave it here -- Wouldn't it be nice if writers and artists, to a degree, treated a book like it was someone else's? Most notably belonging to the consumer, but also with a nod to the past? Why does the wheel have to constantly be reinvented??
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Post by Shiryu on Aug 29, 2007 3:58:20 GMT -5
You know, it's quite an interesting point. I know I few professional comic book writers, mostly for Disney or Panini Comics, and they all say that a writer should only write for himself, and not for the fans. Basically, the idea is that a writer should write what he likes to, because that's what he can do best, whereas trying to please fans would only end up in disappointing stories, added to the fact that it's impossible to please everyone. Apparently even Carl Barks (the creator of Uncle Scrooge and dozens of famous Disney characters) said the same, and it's what they now teach in the Disney academy.
I suppose that some writers roughly like what we like, new stories but with a classical taste, whereas others prefer to change the whole status quo. Perhaps it depends on how much they liked the Avengers when they were reading it years ago...
Going back to the Korvac Saga, I have a question: at the end of the story, Michael brings everyone back to life, albeit in serious, almost critical, conditions. What about Vance Astro? He exploded with the Guardian's starship, and even if he was revived, he would have still been in outer space, exploding or suffocating immediately. Has it ever been explained how he was saved?
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 29, 2007 7:31:57 GMT -5
I've often been confused (I'm sure I missed it somewhere along the line...) as to the relationship between Vance Astro and Justice. They are one and the same, correct? Years ago, in the very early pages of The Defenders, there was a Guardians of the Galaxy story with the Guardians and a very youthful Vance Astro in the same story. Is that young Vance the same who became Justice? And if so, how was the existence of two Vances in the same time stream reconciled?
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Post by Shiryu on Aug 29, 2007 8:29:45 GMT -5
Yes, young Vance eventually became Justice, joining the Avengers as we know. Vance Astro, of the Guardians, is one of his alternate future selves. They can't stay in the same time at a certain distance otherwise there would be catastrophic destruction due to the temporal paradox they represent.
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Post by von Bek on Aug 29, 2007 9:44:27 GMT -5
Thanks to the suit he wears (I think is a kind of exoesqueleton) Vance Astrovik could still be alive thousends of years in the future, and join the GoTG. However he can´t take it off or else his flesh will putrefy (creepy!).
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Hourman
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 83
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Post by Hourman on Aug 29, 2007 10:29:23 GMT -5
Going back to the Korvac Saga, I have a question: at the end of the story, Michael brings everyone back to life, albeit in serious, almost critical, conditions. What about Vance Astro? He exploded with the Guardian's starship, and even if he was revived, he would have still been in outer space, exploding or suffocating immediately. Has it ever been explained how he was saved? It was never explained, but I assume that Michael, with a total mastery over space and time, simply reversed time to a second before he destroyed the starship. Because in Avengers #181, you see the Guardians depart in a small craft, which wouldn't be enough to navigate the time stream... (Starhawk was flying outside of the ship). Moondragon manipulated their memories to believe they defeated Korvac and won a great battle, so with no Avengers dying in the battle I assumed Vance Astro also survived.
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Post by Shiryu on Sept 2, 2007 11:27:48 GMT -5
I've finished the Michelaine run, which was definitely interesting and somewhat peculiar.
This run was somewhat less epic than the previous one, and introduced a lot of new villains. Some, like Taskmaster, were clearly quite succesfull, others (Inferno, the Shadow Lord, the Berseker, Red Ronin) I don't think have ever been used again. Overall this was nice, it's good to see new faces every now and again and it looked like the Avengers were always facing the same people. There were some good struggles with Grey Gargoyle and the Absorbing Man too, and it was nice to have Quicksilver back for a while.
There was also a lot of members interactions. The Beast / Wonder Man friendship really comes into play, and Jocasta, Iron Man and Thor all have nice moments (I especially like when Tony, realizing he has rebuilt Ultron, records a message for the Thunder God only).
Something I was less happy with was the "humorous Jarvis". He was used as comic relief a bit too often, and was a bit silly at times (especially when, against Inferno, he says "I'm happy to help" and comes with a fire estinguisher -_-).
Also, in the central part of the run, there were too many issues devoted only to training. They were rather nice, but too close together, especially just before and after the short Taskmaster arc.
A special mention for the Gyrich story. While being annoying, and at times even depracable (especially when he forbids the Vision to go and help Wanda after she is kidnapped by Chtlon), he was not quite so bad as he would then become (for example when he has the Avengers arrested in the Vault).
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Sept 4, 2007 9:05:32 GMT -5
I had mixed feelings about the Michelinie run when I read it a few years ago. I loved the membership, characterization, and artwork. The plots were great, but I found the scripting to be a little wordy and convoluted. The narration and dialog just didn't flow well for me. But the plots and action were awesome and exciiting. All the villains you mention have excellent return potential (except maybe Inferno) -- but for some reason have not returned.
Byrne's art was a major benefit to this run of issues. The guy knows how to layout an action scene. The action scenes in these books are some of the best.
And the 2 issue Grey Gargoyle story is one of my favorites ever.
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Post by Shiryu on Sept 4, 2007 10:32:36 GMT -5
I preferred the Perez issues, but Byrne was certainly better than other artists there. Btw, what's the story with issue 203? it was quite disconnected, and the art at times was weird (like looking through the fog), I almost thought it was all a dream in the end
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