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Post by drew on Apr 16, 2012 15:23:18 GMT -5
bobc You are correct, the writing, characterization was just spot on. The issue I recall had Cap and Beast in the gym, Jocasta wakes up to return to Ultron, and Thor returns, only to have Mjolnir deflected by Captain America. Heck, even the moving guys returning Jocasta had some funny stuff. And yes, the Beast is hilarious. Probably one of the most underrated characters out there. Just a guess, but perhaps the Kree/Skrull conflict will attract the attention of Galactus, and now that the FF have fully appeared, as well as Doom the stage seems set. I can't believe the EMH crew will pass up the chance to have Galactus and the Surfer appear, never mind having Doom steal the Surfer's power cosmic. I get the feeling loose ends are being tied up to have another conflict (Kree/Skrull/Civil War) being more clear cut. For example, Skrull Cap might well register just to get access SHIELD intell he can pass on to the Skrull forces. So we get the Civil War storyline with no heroes looking bad or wrong. As far as USM, yeah, it's a little clumsy and juvenile at times, but Spidey is a hard character to nail down. The comic USM wasn't my cup of tea at all, this seems to be just taking the name and running in a different direction. I'd say it's more like Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends than USM. (The title is probably based on name recognition. Or the "Poochy factor".) Still, when Teen Titans was airing I flat out hated it. Then I only watched the "serious" episodes. Then I watched the sillier episodes, and I'm glad I did. You get a more well rounded view of the characters that way. I agree about the commercials, BTW, but I'm a little intrigued about the Tron and Motorcity spots. ultron69 I'm looking forward to Thor returning, as well as Hank. Apparently in 2 weeks someone (Scott Lang?) will steal the Ant man suit. And Thor has to deal with Surtur eventually, so... he'll return eventually, probably in his armor outfit. I'll agree, IM Armored Adventures doesn't exactly blow my mind, but it is interesting to see a more integrated animated MU. Seeing IM with Black Panther, Doc Doom and Magneto is pretty exciting! Seeing (a version) of Nova, Power Man, Iron Fist, and White ... whomever on USM seems to indicate that things might get better. And hey, perhaps a successful animated series or movie can keep a much beloved but perhaps lower profile show on the air for awhile longer. Here's hoping. P.S. I also like Young Justice. The way I see it the more comic based cartoons that succeed, the better. I usually don't like CGI shows, but Green Lantern is pretty solid.
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Post by ultron69 on Apr 16, 2012 17:38:02 GMT -5
Drew, the episode of IM Armored Adventures I saw didn't have any guest stars, and the villain, Hammer, was rather obnoxious, so I'm sure that's part of the reason I didn't enjoy it more.
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Post by drew on Apr 17, 2012 2:36:50 GMT -5
ultron69 I stumbled upon Iron Man AA (was that deliberate?) quite some time ago and it seemed like a cheap movie cash-in to keep the license more than anything else. I also don't especially care for CGI animation; I like good old fashioned drawings myself. Still, I watched about ten episodes or so, let it go for awhile, then checked in later to see a version of Hawkeye, Black Widow, and Black Panther all within a few episodes! My point was this was kind of the "shot heard round the world" as previously all Marvel properties were very restricted and cross-overs and continuity were pretty much unheard of in animation. One of my favorite subplots in the printed "Acts of Vengeance" was Magneto wasn't too happy working with the Red Skull. If I recall correctly Doom had no problem, but then he doesn't see himself as part of an ethnic group, he is simply Doom. I hate it when comics pigeonhole villains; it's so boring. Their was a story in Robin a few years back when the Riddler decider to mess with the Flash, and it was quite amusing. So why not see Bullseye fight Hawkeye? Or Doc Ock take on Cap? Which leads me to another question, open to all: On USM comic and cartoon, Venom is a big drippy mess; which I personally don't care for that much, I think most people disliked the version in Spider-Man 3, so what is your favorite take on Venom? I personally think the stalker/silent assailant version early on is the best (he pushed Peter in front of a subway, went to visit aunt May, etc.) that's really creepy. The '90's lethal protector version or the slobbering brain hungry version aren't very interesting, although I did like the Mac Gargan version to some extent and the Flash Thompson version is okay. I do like the idea of Anti-Venom though. To clarify; what is you guys and gals favorite take on Venom and why?
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Post by bobc on Apr 17, 2012 7:51:08 GMT -5
Drew--I don't think the Beast is under-rated. I think Avengers die-hards look at him (judging from what I read on other forums) as being one of the high points in Avengers history, especially his friendship with Simon Williams. He brought more fun to the book than anyone ever has! Remember when Whirlwind tried to dislodge the Beast by spinning, but failed, and the Beast said something like "That was fun, whirly! Not as fun as Magic Mountain, mind you, but still fun."
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Post by ultron69 on Apr 17, 2012 10:57:27 GMT -5
Drew, I agree 100% with you about pigeonholing villains. I've never really understood why writers do that, actually.
I was never into Venom that much, so I don't have much of an opinion as to which version is the best. I will say, though, that I did like the movie version, which I'm sure brands me as a heretic among true Spider-Man fans.
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Post by Shiryu on Apr 17, 2012 11:56:07 GMT -5
I've just watched #2 and #3. The former was ok, but nothing really special except for the introduction of War Machine to the animated universe. I enjoyed #3 much more, it made for a nice Avengers-Masters team-up, with an intriguing Surtur subplot. Have you seen the titles of the upcoming episodes? Welcome to the Kree Empire, To Steal an Ant-Man, Michael Korvac, Who Do You Trust?, The Ballad of Beta Ray Bill... looks like they will be introducing a ton of new characters very soon! I hope there will be two-parters too though. Drew, I agree 100% with you about pigeonholing villains. I've never really understood why writers do that, actually. I remember reading there are editorial reasons. Villains "belong" to certain editors, and you need permission to use them, I suppose in case another writer already has plans for them, or to make sure they don't get overused. So for example the Daredevil team needed permission from the Spidey team to use Kingpin the very first time. Probably the original, but I've never really liked him all that much. The current Flash Thompson Venom isn't bad either
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Post by drew on Apr 17, 2012 12:33:51 GMT -5
@sshiryu You're right. In the early to mid nineties Marvel comics became Marvel Entertainment Group or something equally as silly since they wanted to expand into other venues such as movies and cartoons. They signed some pretty dumb deals and increased the titles they were releasing. In an attempt to keep any sort of continuity "group" editors were assigned to say Spider-Man or the X-Men for example, so those titles the group editor worked on went into lockdown, basically. From what I've read and the comics I bought Marvel tried to get too big too fast and the quality suffered. Hence assigning villains to heroes/teams. I'm very hopeful that Marvel has moved past that. bobc Cool! I thought I was the only Beast fan around. If you think about it he's alot like Captain America; basically human but just all his attributes are cranked up. ultron69 I also liked the movie version, but that movie was just too busy. Also, why didn't we see the awesome (Rick Leonardi designed, I believe) black costume with the white spider? I'm excited about the upcoming episodes, if we do see Scott Lang perhaps him Jan and Hank can take down the Taskmaster like in that classic Avengers issue. Perhaps Korvac will be reworked to exclude the Badoon; I doubt they want to introduce a third alien race at this point. Beta Ray Bill I just can't get excited about. He comes off as Thor lite. If I wanted that I'd look up Thunderstrike.
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Post by ultron69 on Apr 18, 2012 13:35:02 GMT -5
Drew, you're right on both counts. Spider-Man 3 crammed too many villains in, and they should have used the classic costume. Oh well, I still liked it.
I'd love to see Scott Lang. I wonder if his daughter would make an appearance or if his ex-con background would be referenced?
Beta Ray Bill is OK, but I wouldn't mind if he got left out, either. If they could somehow do the Korvac Saga, that would be cool. Gravitron might be easier, though.
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Post by bobc on Apr 19, 2012 8:14:40 GMT -5
I thought the Beast was dynamite in the Avengers! Remember when he tried to pick up the Absorbing Man's ball and chain, but couldn't, saying "This will make a great trophy for....huff..huff..somebody else."
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Post by ultron69 on Apr 19, 2012 17:49:03 GMT -5
I loved the Beast in the Avengers. He was one of my favorites. I loved his sense of humor. I do think he was grossly underutilized, though, especially the genius aspect of his character.
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Post by Shiryu on Apr 20, 2012 7:25:03 GMT -5
Hmm, I agree on the underutilized part. When I read the complete V1 for the first time, I remember being disappointed at how little the Beast had actually done. Good comic relief and some great lines, but, beyond his joining story, I don't remember many times when he was instrumental for a victory.
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Post by bobc on Apr 20, 2012 8:06:24 GMT -5
True--but that whole scene where Tony Stark, Hank Pym, Beast and Black Panther were examining Wonder Man in the lab was great characterization. Nobody listened to the Beast--which fed into his inferiority complex.
And in regards to under-utilization, one thing I noticed in reading this volume was that for the most part, most battles were won by the efforts of the Vision, Thor or Iron Man. Occasionally the Scarlet Witch was a deciding factor. The Beast, BP, Wasp, CA, Yellowjacket and even Wonder Man almost never "saved the day." I guess when you have such vastly differing power levels, it's kind of hard to let the lesser powered guys shine. That's why I like EMH so much, all the characters hold their own
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Post by Shiryu on Apr 20, 2012 12:42:22 GMT -5
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Post by bobc on Apr 20, 2012 13:27:13 GMT -5
Oh for God's sake. What the hell is going on at Marvel? The first time we've EVER had a Marvel cartoon that virtually every single fan loves, and they kill it. Am I surprised? NO. We were already told that the EMH creative team had "already moved on"--and trust me, as a guy employed in a similar field, that means Marvel/Disney is either unhappy with the creative team, or they are killing the show.
Last season's EMH episodes are now on Youtube, and the guy posting them is asking viewers to hit "like" if they didn't even know this cartoon existed until they found it on Youtube. Let's just say he is well liked. AND the clips of the show nobody knows exists are averaging between 50-80,000 views, which is very high considering the clips have only been up for a few days.
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Post by drew on Apr 20, 2012 23:41:35 GMT -5
I heard this a couple of days ago, but didn't post in the hope it wasn't true. Sadly enough it probably is. DC successfully got me to stop reading their comics but their animation is pretty good, so I was/am kind of okay. If Marvel does this (I know all shows end eventually, but come on!) than it looks like I'm completely done with Marvel. I've stuck up for USM in the past, but I don't want two shows like that. Honestly I really watch USM to get to EMH, so if anything USM is the one piggybacking. If I'm following correctly, Jeph Loeb doesn't like the show because it was started before he took his current position. Really? Is the man that insecure? Are people really that crazy and small-minded? *SIGH* Well, we do have options. One, the movie is probably going to do very well, and that might be enough to save EMH, if they, I dunno, MENTION IT! Two, thanks to our friend Bobc (a class act and a gentleman) we know about the Youtube episodes, and perhaps that can generate enough buzz, excitement, whatever to rescue the show. If it were up to me I'd chain Chris Yost to a keyboard, but Marvel tends to get rid of talent to bring in yes men. Well, I'm going to go watch the episodes on Youtube and do what I can. Let's assemble! Who's with me?
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Post by Shiryu on Apr 21, 2012 14:42:28 GMT -5
If it does indeed happen, what would anger me most is Leob's arrogance. I understand cancelling a poor series, but a successful one? Because he disagrees with the arc format? That's just ego at play.
An interesting side note is the article saying A:EMH is "currently one of the most successful series on Disney XD" Surely Disney will not just keep quiet if they try to take it off the air?
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Post by bobc on Apr 21, 2012 15:09:56 GMT -5
Thanks, Drew--maybe if those videos on Youtube get up there in view counts, someone will take notice--but I think it is too late.
Loeb is a jackass. You have no idea how many projects I've personally seen destroyed by arrogant hacks like Loeb. One day I just might start a blog and tell some stories about the video game industry. People from the outside wouldn't believe what goes on.
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Post by drew on Apr 22, 2012 2:02:16 GMT -5
A blue sky scenario might be that they'll simply change the name and leave EMH mostly intact. That's a long shot, though. Why does Loeb want only self contained stories? Does he think we have no attention span or something? Of course, when HE wants a two parter (the pilot) that's okay. A concern Loeb raised was that people might miss an episode and be confused. SO FREAKING WHAT? If I'm at the movies and need to use the restroom, they don't stop running the film, because that's MY problem. When I first started reading comics I had no idea what was going on, but I stuck with it and now I like that I have extensive knowledge plus I got the joy of gaining that knowledge. Fans, real fans will make a point of seeing every episode they can, and if they miss one or two they'll try to watch them later, such as buying the DVD. Why is having a quick 10 second recap to get viewers up to speed such a bad thing? And why the heck is EMH on a channel that many people simply don't get? Put it on the regular Disney channel, or air older season 1 episodes on said channel. Gah, it's so frustrating! A rumor I'm starting is that Loeb and Bendis are actually the same guy. They might as well be, since they are the antithesis of all that is good and worthwhile.
At least Young Justice is still good. The mole has been revealed, we find out something quite disturbing about Red Arrow, and see character development and an intriuging last shot. I can't wait to see what happens next, because oh wait IT'S A STORY ARC AND IT KEEPS ME WATCHING! d**n you Loeb/Bendis. You guys flat out suck.
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 22, 2012 6:06:19 GMT -5
I do feel like we kind of knew about all of this already, though, didn't we? It was many, many months ago-- but we were discussing the fact that the entire creative team had left the project after (or during) the second season, and that it was a given that the series was done. It would take some effort to track down, I imagine, but I believe we even linked to interviews on the subject (Chris Yost comes to mind). And it was right at about the time they clamped down on YouTube access to the the show AND began postponing the release of the second season. There was just an awful lot of disappointment all at once-- but we were also noticing that Disney wasn't promoting the show aggressively, nor slotting it correctly, and it wasn't showing much ratings strength. So, even with the long-delayed second season making such a strong showing, there's really no way that the EMH that we love so well could ever be revived in a timely fashion, given how long it takes to produce animated film. And without the original producers'/creators' vision, it likely wouldn't be a comparable revival, regardless. Man, it's just too bad, y'know? I'm not even sure if you can lay the blame entirely at Loeb's feet, since both the Disney & Marvel corporate entities seemed to completely fumble this football from the get-go. But Loeb's ego-driven decisions, here, certainly give him plenty of culpability. HB
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 22, 2012 6:40:43 GMT -5
. Why does Loeb want only self contained stories? Does he think we have no attention span or something? Of course, when HE wants a two parter (the pilot) that's okay. A concern Loeb raised was that people might miss an episode and be confused. . Fans, real fans will make a point of seeing every episode they can, and if they miss one or two they'll try to watch them later, such as buying the DVD. Why is having a quick 10 second recap to get viewers up to speed such a bad thing? And one might add that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. Or conversely not reap the same benefits. Marvel wrestled with this very same dilemma for quite some time starting, oh, about 45 years or so ago. A recurring Stan's Soapbox theme was the ol' "one-issue stand-alone stories vs. continued stories". The appeal, of course, of continuing stories (and this goes back even further to the old Hollywood movie serials. . . and then even further to pop-literature that was printed in 19th-century newspapers and periodicals) is that it COMPELS READERS TO BUY/SEE THE NEXT INSTALLMENT!!, for god's sake!! Sure, it may not seem hip, cool, or edgy to rely on a 150-year-old tried-and-true (and still HIGHLY effective-- look at much of primetime network TV) installment model-- but that's where the arrogance gets completely in the way of the product's success. Episodes that are completely self-contained make it far, far easier for the desired viewer to choose NOT to tune in-- rather than give them an undeniable incentive to be there at the appointed time. "Don't want to potentially confuse the viewers" is one of the most absurd, self-serving, non-justifications for an arbitrary production policy I've ever heard of. Good grief-- LOST would have been gone after 4 weeks, with that thinking. . . HB
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Post by ultron69 on Apr 22, 2012 8:59:40 GMT -5
True--but that whole scene where Tony Stark, Hank Pym, Beast and Black Panther were examining Wonder Man in the lab was great characterization. Nobody listened to the Beast--which fed into his inferiority complex. Actually, that scene is one of the things I had in mind when I said that Hank M was underutilized. Hey guys, you've got another supergenius on the team. Listen to him! Interesting point about all of those characters not being often instrumental to victory. I hadn't really noticed, though I did notice that Hank M was rarely instrumental to victory. I think Jan got to shine once she became leader, and Hawkeye had plenty of great moments, including defeating the Collector, and defeating She-Hulk in that East Coast/West Coast crossover in the annuals. It is certainly tough to face a strong foe and have a lower order hero save the day, but I think a good writer can pull it off, though if it happens too often, it might strain the credulity.
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Post by ultron69 on Apr 22, 2012 9:01:31 GMT -5
That is awful. I hope it's just a rumor. I would think that with the Avengers movie coming out, they'd want to keep this thing going. However, if they do cancel it, I guess it'll free up an extra half hour per week of my time, as I doubt I'll watch the replacement.
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Post by ultron69 on Apr 22, 2012 9:04:40 GMT -5
At least Young Justice is still good. The mole has been revealed, we find out something quite disturbing about Red Arrow, and see character development and an intriuging last shot. I can't wait to see what happens next, because oh wait IT'S A STORY ARC AND IT KEEPS ME WATCHING! d**n you Loeb/Bendis. You guys flat out suck. I'm loving that show. Yesterday's episode was great. I'm really only watching Young Justice and EMH at this point, and they're about neck and neck in my book. Yes, the continuing story keeps me really wanting to watch each week. Vandal Savage implied that controlling the JLA was part of a larger plan, and losing control of them didn't end the plan, so now I'm really dying to know what they're up to!!
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Post by ultron69 on Apr 22, 2012 9:07:53 GMT -5
. Why does Loeb want only self contained stories? Does he think we have no attention span or something? Of course, when HE wants a two parter (the pilot) that's okay. A concern Loeb raised was that people might miss an episode and be confused. . Fans, real fans will make a point of seeing every episode they can, and if they miss one or two they'll try to watch them later, such as buying the DVD. Why is having a quick 10 second recap to get viewers up to speed such a bad thing? And one might add that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. Or conversely not reap the same benefits. Marvel wrestled with this very same dilemma for quite some time starting, oh, about 45 years or so ago. A recurring Stan's Soapbox theme was the ol' "one-issue stand-alone stories vs. continued stories". The appeal, of course, of continuing stories (and this goes back even further to the old Hollywood movie serials. . . and then even further to pop-literature that was printed in 19th-century newspapers and periodicals) is that it COMPELS READERS TO BUY/SEE THE NEXT INSTALLMENT!!, for god's sake!! Sure, it may not seem hip, cool, or edgy to rely on a 150-year-old tried-and-true (and still HIGHLY effective-- look at much of primetime network TV) installment model-- but that's where the arrogance gets completely in the way of the product's success. Episodes that are completely self-contained make it far, far easier for the desired viewer to choose NOT to tune in-- rather than give them an undeniable incentive to be there at the appointed time. "Don't want to potentially confuse the viewers" is one of the most absurd, self-serving, non-justifications for an arbitrary production policy I've ever heard of. Good grief-- LOST would have been gone after 4 weeks, with that thinking. . . HB Exactly. Like I just said in my last post, that is a major reason why I find Young Justice so compelling. If the show wer geared towards 6-12 year olds, I could understand. But it's obviously a mature show, geared towards teens and up, so you need to give those types a viewers a reason to want to tune in every week.
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Post by bobc on Apr 22, 2012 11:14:22 GMT -5
Yes, Drew, we are all too stupid for own good. We must be hand fed by the brilliant and talented Mr. Loeb.
This reeks of an industry hack's ego running amok.
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Post by drew on Apr 22, 2012 12:29:22 GMT -5
You're right HB, although I wish you weren't. Why Disney/Marvel are so eager to kill EMH I'll never know. Your point about serials was well taken. Heck, most of the old school creators were huge fans of the 10-15 minute cliff hangers shown before movies back in the day. You'd come back the next week to see how the hero escaped from the exploding boat or whatever. Many things have changed since then, but they could show short clips of EMH to raise awareness of the show and entice new viewers. A more recent example was Stephen King's The Green Mile. It was released serially in 80-120 page editions, and it was driving me crazy, but in the good way. King specifically cited Charles Dickens as the influence for that decision, since he also released some of his works in a similiar fashion. The point is, I HAD to track down all those books to complete the story and I loved it. I missed one and read the next and had to connect the dots a little, but that was fine. Good enough for Charles Dickens, but too complicated for Jeph Loeb? That actually makes sense. One-offs are fine sometimes, but as you said you need a reason to come back. I'm hoping the movie/Youtube will spark enough interest to keep EMH rolling; surely Disney/Marvel aren't dumb enough to turn down money (they probably are though.) if they want to appeal more to kids they could, I dunno, MAKE SOME EMH TOYS! When I couldn't watch Super Friends I was playing with my Superman, Batman, Aquaman, etc. toys. When the next episode aired I was in front of the tv with the better part of the Justice League sprawled around me.
I just watched USM and they introduced the Iron Spider armor, played it for some laughs, and then have Peter conclude he can't really control it very well and he goes back to the red and blue. It seems like they are mandated to include certain items from higher up and they do, but then quickly dismiss them so they can get back to business. The show is still only pretty okay, but the new episode had Spider-Ham pop up, and I have to respect anything that can plausibly reference Peter Porker. Off to watch EMH now.
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Post by drew on Apr 23, 2012 7:52:29 GMT -5
I hate to post back to back, but what is DC doing right (animation wise) that Marvel is doing wrong? Cancelling EMH obviously, but DC just seems to have a better grip on transferring their comics into television. Batman, Superman, Batman Beyond, Legion of Super Heroes, The Batman, the Brave and the Bold, and Teen Titans were all pretty good to excellent. I think it's the ties to Warner Bros that gives DC the edge (they also made better superhero movies for a long time) sure there were obvious missteps along the way, but DC has really picked up their game, although their comics are horrible. What I think is that while DC has learned how to craft a fine animated show some time ago, Marvel is in the goofy teenage time frame of figuring out how they want to present their characters. Is it EMH? (seems like no) or Superhero Squad, or Iron Man Armored Adventures or Ultimate Spider-Man? I see no reason really why these diverse versions can't co-exist. So in reiteration, how can Marvel fix its animated series?
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Post by ultron69 on Apr 24, 2012 7:04:30 GMT -5
OK, last week's EMH was pretty cool. By the way, they do have a recap at the beginning of each episode, showing scenes from whichever previous episode is relevant for the current episode. That works for me. I don't feel at all confused, so I don't know why The Powers That Be think they need to dumb down their cartoons.
OK, so Ms. Marvel is a member now. Pretty cool. I'm surprised no one took "Captain America" to task for his rash behavior, but I guess there wasn't time.
I agree with Drew that DC is doing a better job than Marvel in the animation department. Frankly, I think that's been the case for quite a while. Still, I wonder how the ratings compare.
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Post by bobc on Apr 24, 2012 8:23:10 GMT -5
Hi Ultron--I have missed several episodes before and never felt lost or confused. The show is so well written and exciting that you can pick up anytime
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Post by ultron69 on Apr 25, 2012 7:29:13 GMT -5
To everyone except Mr. Loeb, apparently.
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