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Post by humanbelly on Apr 14, 2011 12:27:41 GMT -5
[Far from me to argue for argue's sake, HB, but the scene of Loki's punishment, however mythologically accurate, was kinda disturbing to me.... . It's funny you should mention that, Bong, as I just watched that final Season 1 Episode about five minutes ago. (During my lunch break-) Yep-- that was certainly a scene to whiten one's knuckles a bit! In the manner of the best of horrific storytelling, it also relied on what it didn't graphically depict to carry the weight of the shock. Still, I think it falls well within the PG-13 realm-- it's a frightening, non-graphic depiction of a bad fate befalling a truly evil individual. I. . . don't think it even begins to compare w/ the particular issue of Avengers or Mighty Avengers (can't really remember) I was referring to. Masque & co. all interrogating and torturing a captured Skrull to death. It was uncategorically horrible to read it. I have a fairly high tolerance, and it made me feel sick on a couple of different levels after I read it. I honestly wished I could go back and NOT have read it-- y'know? It does occur to me that a lot of our community may have stopped reading the Bendis books by that point in S.I., so the reference may not have much meaning-- but it represents a low point (possibly THE low point) in all of Marvel comics for me. Nah-- can't see that making it into EMH, under any circumstances! GREAT Season One cliffhanger, though! And as was pointed out earlier, the whole idea of a Skrull Secret Invasion is perfectly logical and fitting w/ their particular abilities and history. I'm kind of looking forward to seeing it handled by a much more deft & respectful creative team-! HB
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Post by bobc on Apr 14, 2011 13:09:45 GMT -5
I am still scared.
HOLD ME!!!
hee hee!!
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 15, 2011 4:38:41 GMT -5
I am still scared. HOLD ME!!! hee hee!! Oh, buh-ROTHER-- and you, the big, strong weight-lifter and all ;D ;D ! Ahh, the facade crumbles at the slightest provocation. . . (heh-heh) Hey, bobc, this was your 1000th post, I see! I believe that's bumped you up in the honorifics to "Honorary Jarvis-Head", it looks like---- congratulations! Man, you're up there with some impressive company. . . an inspiration to us all! HB
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Post by drew on Apr 15, 2011 4:51:46 GMT -5
I know the invasion hasn't really started yet, but does anyone else think it would be a cool way to introduce Galactus/ Silver Surfer? During the peak of battle the world ender descends.. maybe he'll destroy the Skrull homeworld.. during the fight we'll see a lone observer, deciding to aid these strange Earthlings against their imminent destruction. Given the way EMH tends to combine storylines, and seeing more of the FF, I'm curious.
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 15, 2011 5:06:08 GMT -5
And HB, I think Cap thinks of the Hulk as just another soldier, and the Hulk respects that. I don't mean it in a derogatory way, but when Hulk gets cranky and anyone else is scared of him Cap basically says "We have a job to do, do it." And the rational part of Banner responds. I do agree, but I think it comes from a different direction. I don't think there's such a thing as being "just another soldier" from Cap's perspective. He views every soldier as a respected individual and as a hero, and quite simply expects as much from them, and believes they'll deliver on it. Doesn't demand it-- just clearly expects it. It's an irresistable appeal to the better nature in almost anyone, and is particularly effective on an individual like the Hulk who is always presumed to live down to people's lowest expectations (and who tends to believe that of himself). Heck, I'm not even sure if the dual-nature issue comes into play here--- it would still be effective even if Banner didn't exist. And again, it's great here in EMH because it re-captures a long-missing element in the Marvel Universe (well, since Caps "death", in fact. . . ): Cap's ability to make everyone around him. . . just, well. . . better, y'know? I can't quite find the best words for it off the top of my head. Heroes are at their best when he's on board. They not only fight to save the city/world/universe, but also because they don't ever want to let Cap down. Am I seeing that in Secret Avengers? No. Steve's tough and smart and dedicated and resourceful, etc.-- but the quality of being an inspirational legend is wholly absent, IMO. Ah, ramble, ramble, ramble--- HB
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Post by bobc on Apr 15, 2011 8:30:28 GMT -5
Only two things scare me, HB. Nuclear War, and Bendis' grubby little sausage-links ruining this animated series.
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 15, 2011 14:43:20 GMT -5
Only two things scare me, HB. Nuclear War, and Bendis' grubby little sausage-links ruining this animated series. Welllllll I imagine you can rest easy about the latter, 'cause even my less-than-immersed industry-browsing has made it clear that BMB's got hands-on, direct creative responsibility for WAAAAY too many Marvel projects at this point. And it's very obvious that he's doing a LOT of work right off the top of his head. In fact, those horrible, inaccurate, poorly executed "Oral History of the Avengers" text pieces he does in Mighty & NA should be cited as direct proof of that. It's painfully, embarrassingly clear that he sits down at his computer and just types them up off the top off his head. . . no research, no reference materials in hand, just working from his own memory and "improvising" what he clearly thinks is his clever, superior re-inventing of the Avengers' history. No, I can't imagine he'd want to have a hand in EMH at this point (unless it would be to jump on the bandwagon). I think that, if asked, he'd probably blow a gasket. . . HB
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Post by drew on Apr 18, 2011 14:54:25 GMT -5
HB, I quit reading Avengers quite some time ago, but the inaccuracies you speak of don't especially surprise me. I seem to remember an issue of New Avengers where Sauron spit fire into the second Black Widow's face. I've never ever heard of Sauron being able to breathe fire, and it really jarred me. I think the reasoning was because Sauron looked reptilian that basically made him a dragon, or something.. very stupid, I know. I read something by Roy Thomas, I think, (whomever created Sauron.) And the entire reason he was a pterodactyl man was because the Comics Code Authority wouldn't allow vampires at the time, which was why Morbius was a "living vampire." (I'm pretty sure Gerry Conway created Morbius) This is pretty basic research, IMO, and Bendis couldn't be bothered to do that much! Maybe he's got too much on his plate or maybe he just doesn't worry about it. I've never been a fan of the Scarlet Witch, but giving a character who can for all intents and purposes rewrite reality to a sloppy writer seems really dumb. It's a very tempting backdoor when you screw up.
Anyway, HB I hear what you are saying about the Hulk/Cap dynamic, perhaps I simply wasn't clear. If you saw Next Avengers, at one point Ultron declares he killed Cap first because he was the most dangerous of the team because he inspired them. What I really meant was Cap sees Hulk as another teammate, not a monster, so he expects him to live up to his potential. Hulk respects being treated in such a fashion, which is why Jan, Clint, and Steve (the "weakest") members have the best rapport with the Hulk.
Well guys we had quite a whirlwind of new episodes, which means we are probably in for a dry spell, if the show continues at all. Meanwhile, we could discuss Avengers related stuff for awhile; Amazon tells me I'm getting my copy of the Thor game in a few weeks, and I certainly plan on seeing the flick, but what I'm liking so far is how even across different media we are seeing agreement. For example, movie Thor wears armor based on the comic, while EMH has a slightly altered helmet.. or how Captain America has an Ultimates based suit, EMH hinted at the Winter Soldier.. I like seeing a certain cohesiveness with characters and storylines. And not to beat a dead horse, we see very little of that with the Bendis-verse. So what do you guys think?
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Post by tomspasic on Apr 19, 2011 14:58:03 GMT -5
Hmmmm.... www.comicsalliance.com/2011/04/19/the-avengers-earths-mightiest-heroes-dvd-extra-season-two-costumes-video-exclusiveSo some new looks coming in season 2. Iron Man I don't mind too much, different armours is part of who he is. But I'd be happier if they went closer to Kirby's design rather than Coipel's for Thor. Kirby's is simple, classic and iconic. I find Coipel's to be too "fussy", and it hasn't grown on me. I've said it before and will say it again, Kirby>Coipel. The latter is a fine artist, capable of producing really good comics, but I have yet to see a single costume re-design of his that I thought superior to the original. And 616 Cap is better than Ultimate Cap, in every way. And as much as I like Hitch's art, Kirby>Hitch, for me. None of the costume changes are really deal-breakers if the rest of the show continues as before, but they do evoke an "oh, dear" from me rather than a "woohoo!". I like that this show is nothing like current comics, (616 or ultimate), and any sign of moving towards wide-screen, decompressed, dumbed-down, talky, needless deaths for shock value comics is unwelcome to me.
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Post by bobc on Apr 19, 2011 15:07:49 GMT -5
hmmmmm--No mention of the Wasp, nor is she on the cover of the DVD. I wonder why? I hope they don't ditch her--she was really endearing, especially in the Asgard episodes
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Post by tomspasic on Apr 19, 2011 16:50:51 GMT -5
hmmmmm--No mention of the Wasp, nor is she on the cover of the DVD. I wonder why? I hope they don't ditch her--she was really endearing, especially in the Asgard episodes Horrible thought: they seem to be doing Stupid Invasion. What happened at the end of SI? To the Wasp, in particular? I hope this is not the case, because I'd have to have to drop the series for being Bendicized.
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Post by Shiryu on Apr 19, 2011 18:06:40 GMT -5
The new costumes sound like a merchandising trick to sell new action figures of the same cast. We've had a few in season 1, with the various armors, the winter costumes in the Malekith episode and the armored costumes Wasp and others wear in the finale. I prefer the classic look for all of them, but the only one I really dislike is Cap's, it looks awful! Still, it's a small price to pay if more action figures mean season 3.
I'm not too worried about Wasp not being mentioned, as they also say nothing about Hawkeye and Hank. So either it's a mass kill or she's safe.
Going back to the finale, I haven't had a chance to comment it! Great episode, I really liked it, although the battle against Loki was a bit too quick. Best bits for me were Cap taking charge against the wolf and Iron-Man looking like the Destroyer. I was expecting Cap to ask Odin to repair his shield, but it looks like that's not happening at the moment (although I hope it does eventually happen). Perhaps he'll get his photon shield now?
The ending didn't surprise me too much. As long as it's better written than SI and doesn't drag on as much I don't mind.
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Post by bobc on Apr 19, 2011 19:14:12 GMT -5
Guys--I have a question. In the episode where the Wasp fights, and almost beats, the Abomination by dropping boulders from a cave on him--He grabs her and says how useless she is, and says something about how someone else gave him a better fight than she did. I have played that clip several times and I can still not tell what the Abomination says. Can anyone understand that speech?
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Post by Shiryu on Apr 19, 2011 20:06:24 GMT -5
To me it sounded like he was talking about "the gods, in their palace, with their shields", or possibly "the guards". But I didn't understand who he was referring to.
Oh, and I had to replay 4 o5 times the part when he calls her a useless bug. Initially, it had sounded much ruder.
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Post by drew on Apr 20, 2011 7:05:02 GMT -5
Shiryu I thought the same thing with the space armor; I'm not a toy collector, so I don't even know if there are any figures based on EMH, but I gotta agree, if it is story driven and makes sense I don't care if they put on different costumes if it helps keep the show going. tomspasic I feel your reservations too about the costume changes, but I think it's a good thing. Movie Thor looks like comic Thor, who looks like EMH Thor, same for Cap. It might help bring in new viewers.. continuity has always been a strong suit of the MU, until recently. It would seem that Marvel is trying to put out consistent versions of their characters, and I like that. I agree, Jack Kirby is beyond compare, but especially for a live action movie his designs are generally the kind that work better on the page. And yeah, it looks like they are going to tie in Stupid Invasion as a lead in for the Kree- Skrull war. I think they can handle it, personally. BTW I think the bracelet on Cap's wrist means we'll see the photon shield next season, and I would not be too surprised to see U.S.Agent (just a hunch) claiming to be the true Cap. Am I the only one who wants to see Stegron, just as a cameo?
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Post by bobc on Apr 20, 2011 8:28:40 GMT -5
Shir--I think he was saying something like "even the guy with the shield and no powers put up a better fight than you"--something like that. But I think I also heard "bow" too in there somewhere. I could be wrong. Why are Abominations so inarticulate these days? Hee hee!
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Post by tomspasic on Apr 20, 2011 8:38:17 GMT -5
Abomination to Wasp: "even the guys with no powers, with the shield and the bow, even they would put up more of a fight than you" Maybe easier for me to understand as I'm english, and his accent is kind of english.
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Post by dlw66 on Apr 20, 2011 10:34:45 GMT -5
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Post by bobc on Apr 20, 2011 11:27:07 GMT -5
Thanks, Tom! That is sort of what I think I heard.
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Post by drew on Apr 20, 2011 13:30:11 GMT -5
I was re-reading the Brubaker Captain America stuff today and I was wondering about Namor's age. Do Atlanteans age slower than humans? The rest of the Invaders were basically suspended; yet Namor looks the same as always. Is it because he's half human or something? I'm not a big Namor fan because he's a jerk, but it would be cool to see him on EMH, if only to see him get smashed by the Hulk.
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Post by bobc on Apr 20, 2011 14:49:15 GMT -5
Namor is a jerk--always has been! But to me, he usually adds a degree of unpredictability to stories that is often awesome. Remember when he and Hercules got into that B-fight over who got the nicest bedroom in Avengers mansion? Hee hee!When two divas collide!
To me it's the same sort of thing with Hank Pym on EMH. I can't stand that whiny, naive personality--BUT if not for him being who he is, we wouldn't have Ultron. Or a lot of the interesting personal interactions. I think Mantis was almost universally hated in the mainstream Avengers comic, but because of her, some of the best interactions ever occurred.
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Post by drew on Apr 20, 2011 21:34:59 GMT -5
bobc I agree, Namor is a great plot device. I don't recall the Hercules fight, but it sounds pretty funny. It would be interesting to see the Black Panther interact with Namor. BP is quiet and regal, while Namor is basically throwing a continuous tantrum. This is why I think Hercules would bea neat character who would be great fun on EMH; he's the antithesis of Thor. Plus he's grown a lot since being in Incredible Hercules. I would say Namor's attitude skews more to the Dr. Doom area. That said, I wouldn't mind a two-parter where Atlantis attacks the surface world. I think Hank isn't necessarily naive, he knows what he is capable of and it scares him, Ultron was a validation of his greatest fear: himself. I think EMH is bringing him along personality-wise. I fully expect to see Yellowjacket soon, given the aggression he was showing in the last few episodes. He's been around for decades and Marvel doesn't seem to know what to do with him most of the time. (But being named scientist supreme was pretty cool.) I'm ambivalent towards Mantis, but I really hate Starfox.
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 21, 2011 5:43:18 GMT -5
bobc I agree, Namor is a great plot device. I don't recall the Hercules fight, but it sounds pretty funny. It would be interesting to see the Black Panther interact with Namor. BP is quiet and regal, while Namor is basically throwing a continuous tantrum. This is why I think Hercules would bea neat character who would be great fun on EMH; he's the antithesis of Thor. Plus he's grown a lot since being in Incredible Hercules. I would say Namor's attitude skews more to the Dr. Doom area. That said, I wouldn't mind a two-parter where Atlantis attacks the surface world. I think Hank isn't necessarily naive, he knows what he is capable of and it scares him, Ultron was a validation of his greatest fear: himself. I think EMH is bringing him along personality-wise. I fully expect to see Yellowjacket soon, given the aggression he was showing in the last few episodes. He's been around for decades and Marvel doesn't seem to know what to do with him most of the time. (But being named scientist supreme was pretty cool.) I'm ambivalent towards Mantis, but I really hate Starfox. Ha! The Hercules/Namor Mutual Antagonism Tango was a DELIGHTFUL ongoing subplot in the mid/late '80's, when John B came back to do the pencils. The specific incident with the bedroom didn't involve a physical confrontation-- which made it all the funnier. It was along the lines of, "And as you can see with my bedroom, they can be decorated to suit one's tastes." "Ah yes, this will do perfectly. I'll take it." "But, as I said, this is MY bedroom. . ." "Yes, and I wish to have it." "Now, one moment. . . " (this is a paraphrased exchange, of course) Note that I don't recall which one was showing whom the bedroom--- 'cause it works either way, with those delightful towering, entitled egos! It was quite awhile before they came to blows (which was also a great choice on the writer's part), and then they were SERIOUSLY dressed down by Capt.Marvel/Monica, and made to shake hands. . . while shooting thought-balloon daggers at each other. (Heh-- "May your beard grow inward-"-- heh) I kind of don't see these guys appearing on EMH anytime soon, though. Hercules, although he's effectively been a part of the team since, like, issue #38 (on & off) just doesn't seem to resonate as iconically as his contemporary members-- and, although it's a mercurial criteria (criterion?) to use as a basis of judgment, I feel like that's a solid part of the creative process here. I fully expect to see Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch and certainly the Vision-- and then I would personally hold off any further expansion of the on-going team. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the group becomes too big and diffuse if there's an attempt to squeeze the entirety of the Avengers historical roster into the series. Aaaaaand of course Namor is an FF guy much more than an Avengers guy. I kinda think the same is true for the potential use of Galactus or Dr. Doom or Magneto-- terrific as they are, their association is MUCH more with other teams. Although Hydra & Aim have always been more of a Cap/SHIELD element, so who knows? I really am liking the way Hank's being used a lot. As you suggested, the only consistency in his treatment at Marvel over the years has been its wild INconsistency. EMH has taken some specific traits, and is really doing a nice job of presenting a brilliant, rather passive scientist who is experiencing serious conflicts with his personal ethics. This is really good stuff, and highly unusual in the superhero genre. I have a feeling this may have been inspired by they second Earth's Mightiest Heroes comic book series (Joe Casey, was it?), where we see Hank save the day by literally killing scores of SuperAdaptoid androids-- and having to continuously convince himself that they're not people the entire time. The personal cost, naturally, is enormous. I think THAT Hank is the one Chris Yost has been giving us in the animated series. Ohhhhh, look how late it is. . . HB
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Post by badgermaniac on Apr 21, 2011 11:31:18 GMT -5
but I really hate Starfox. This cannot be stated enough.
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Post by bobc on Apr 21, 2011 12:25:25 GMT -5
Hee hee--you summed that encounter up, pretty well HB! I think it was Hercules who was showing Namor his room, and Namor decided it was going be his room! But I'm not completely sure! Either way, it was hilarious! And remember when Hercules got annoyed with Namor sulking around because he was thrown out of Atlantis? Hercules called him "Prince No-More" and "Son of a Sea Slug!" Hee hee! Those were the good old days! IMO that era did more in terms of giving the Avengers distinctive personalities than all the rest combined!
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Post by drew on Apr 22, 2011 2:54:00 GMT -5
See guys, that's why I want those two knuckleheads to guest star. I understand certain characters being roped off into different... areas, I guess, but it still seems silly to have a perfectly good character go unused for no real reason. Someone like Doc Doom has pretty much fought everybody in the MU (Secret War) , so saying he's an FF villain and therefore unusable seems like a waste. I can't believe nobody has brought up She-Hulk yet! Man, that could be a very funny episode, especially if Hawkeye asked her out or something. Plus you could have the angst/drama of the Hulk feeling guilty about her transformation. Ther is so much potential in this show. bobc I took me a minute to get "prince no-more" but when I did I had a nice chuckle. Thanks.
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 22, 2011 5:26:58 GMT -5
See guys, that's why I want those two knuckleheads to guest star. I understand certain characters being roped off into different... areas, I guess, but it still seems silly to have a perfectly good character go unused for no real reason. Someone like Doc Doom has pretty much fought everybody in the MU (Secret War) , so saying he's an FF villain and therefore unusable seems like a waste. I can't believe nobody has brought up She-Hulk yet! Man, that could be a very funny episode, especially if Hawkeye asked her out or something. Plus you could have the angst/drama of the Hulk feeling guilty about her transformation. Ther is so much potential in this show. bobc I took me a minute to get "prince no-more" but when I did I had a nice chuckle. Thanks. Nah, it's not that they're bad elements or story ideas-- I think it's just as much an issue of Yost & co. having, really, an embarrassing wealth of good, very good, and downright great source material to draw from. And they necessarily have to be very patient, take their time, and choose prudently and deliberately what angles and elements they decide to go with. Of the achievements they can be most proud of with this series is the fact that they've successfully combined clarity and depth in an animated series where it would be particularly easy to fumble either. That's an inherent trap with super-teams, naturally. If anything, I bet the brainstorm story sessions are filled with minor heartbreak as solid story ideas are necessarily rejected simply because there isn't room or time to pursue every inspiration that surely is pitched to the group. Heck, creators at every level are capable of surrendering to the siren call of "just one more cool thing": Spider-man 3; the last Super Bowl halftime show; Phil Spector's over-production of the Let It Be album--- all examples that come quickly to mind. Knowing when not to do more is a crucial key to enduring success and longevity. However, if they make it to season 3, I think that would be a great time to bring She-Hulk in-- no question. (Even in the face of all the She-Hulk loathers out there!) HB
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 22, 2011 5:35:52 GMT -5
but I really hate Starfox. This cannot be stated enough. Oh, hate is such a strong word. . . It's just--- what the heck did he add to the group? How, exactly, was he an "Earth's Mightiest Hero"-? His connection to our world is almost non-existent-- not even a particularly senitmental attachment. Honestly, I found the much-reviled young Rage more compelling and appropriate. For which I am now prepared to receive abuse. . . ;D HB
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Post by bobc on Apr 22, 2011 8:32:23 GMT -5
Not surprisingly,I'm with you, HB. I didn't hate Starfox, I just didn't think he added anything to the team. A character has to be pretty bland for me not to feel one way or another on him.
I also agree that adding new characters to EMH should be done slowly, for maximum effect. We are getting Ms. Marvel this next season--which I'm sure will delight a lot of Avengers fans. I would love to see the She Hulk come on board--but with the hulk around I'm not so sure she wouldn't come off as a pale imitation of him. Don't get me wrong--She Hulk is one of my all-time favorites, I just think two Hulks on the team at the same time would be diminishing to both of them.
Drew--if you find yourself with some extra cash, snap up all the Stern issues of Avengers from the 80's after John Buscema came back on-board. It seems like everyone knows and loves their "Under Siege" storyline, and rightfully so, but the entire run is amazingly good. I am still hoping Marvel will release a trade paperback of the Assault on Asgard series.
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Post by drew on Apr 23, 2011 4:31:14 GMT -5
Starfox always seemed like a creepy perv, that's why I don't like him. Him being useless doesn't help much. I liked Rage quite a bit, actually though at first I thought he was the stereotypical "angry black man" that comic writers love to trot out once in a while. Still, I always think of him as a New Warrior first, same as Justice and Firestar. HB, I think you got it... since I'm not confident there will be a season three I'd like to see the EMH team take on all these cool Marvel characters while they can, but I see your point. I guess we have to keep our expectations reasonable. Still, it seems as if they are aiming for fairly large story arcs, but I see no reason why minor detours can't be taken once in a while, or used to set up the main story sometimes. I'm not talking about a bunch of guys and gals joining the roster; but having an episode where say Daredevil assists the team during a blackout in NYC would be pretty cool, and then DD goes his own way, I'd like that. Same with She-Hulk, Falcon, etc. bobc ! I really like Stern and Buscema, (both of 'em) so thanks for the tip. The under siege storyline was a bit hard to read, especially the torture of Jarvis, the destruction of Cap's belongings, and the beat down Hercules received.. Zemo and Mr. Hyde and the Wrecking Crew... the characterization was just pure evil, but correct. Personally, those black and white reprint editions are about as good as it gets. I'd recommend Power of the Atom if you haven't read it already. It lasted roughly twenty issues and shouldn't be hard to find.
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