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Post by Shiryu on Apr 8, 2011 17:00:59 GMT -5
Did you recognize the guy fighting Hawkeye? He looked like Trapster, but I don't remember him being black. Is it his new Ultimate look or has the character changed at some point?
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Post by bobc on Apr 8, 2011 19:15:06 GMT -5
I didn't know who it was either--but didn't someone say it was Chemistro, or something like that? It wasn't any version of the Trapster that I've ever seen.
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Post by drew on Apr 8, 2011 21:55:01 GMT -5
Nah. That's Chemisto. He basically has an alchemy gun. There have been at least two.. I think the first one retired from crime when he accidently used his chemistry gun on his own leg. I think the newer one is his younger brother.
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 10, 2011 5:34:36 GMT -5
Oh, I just cannot get past how good this series is, now that I've had a chance to catch up as well. Ohmanohmanohmanohman. And I. . . I . . . (oh this is going to sound fan-boy nutso). . . I feel almost like Chris Yost & co. have been clandestinely hanging around our very own board as guests! Okay, I know that may not be incredibly likely (but not out of the question, I suppose)-- but if nothing else, they are CLEARLY from our Avengers-aesthetic home town-- their take on the team just seems to uncannily echo many of the particulars of our happy community-!
The one that made my jaw drop, though, was in episode 24, when Hawkeye was trying to figure out who the heck Chemistro was: "Paste-Pot Pete? No wait-- the Hypno-Hustler!" Didn't we, just a few months ago in owene's thread, have a bit of a fun discussion about those VERY SAME TWO CHARACTERS having the lamest, most embarrassing names ever??!!? Okay, okay- I know that the animation production process is too slow to actually accomodate that sort of response. . . but boy-- it's like they're lurking behind us, reading the screen right over our shoulders! Bobc's been longing for a noble, capable Black Panther-- there he is. I've been nattering on about an accepted Hulk on the team-- and we have one. I would assume Shiryu is delighted w/ the current focus on Thor. I can only assume that there are plans to reward Sharkar's patience in the near future by introducing Wanda & Quicksilver. . . .
Boy, how timely was my recent rantlet about the Hulk? The brief (albeit well-written and surprisingly moving) scene between he and Cap pretty much touched on exactly the points I was making. The word and idea of "monster" is addressed point-blank, and the obvious, mature, reasonable way to interact with the Hulk (i.e.-- letting him know that he's indeed a hero, and simply expect him to follow that road) is clearly and directly implemented. This is really Cap at his best, too. Commanding, respectful, professional and surprisingly warm all at the same time.
And all in such a short little exchange!
HB
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 10, 2011 5:55:15 GMT -5
. If the Avengers can tangle with FF foes, maybe the Sinister Six or the Kingpin are waiting in the wings. My new expectation is this: can EMH make the evil team Zodiac interesting? They can mix and match different members, but I can't see how it could be done. Actually, drew, I wouldn't be surprised if Zodiac worked better in this animated series than they did in the comic. They were sort of the "nemesis team" that never quite gelled, IMO. One outing around issues #79/80-ish (with Red Wolf's saga), and then another longish one in the 120's, I think? (easy enough to check, I'm sure)-- but that one was mightily mixed up w/ the whole Mantis/Celestial Madonna thing, and Zodiac seemed to be more of an afterthought. Heck, have they ever cropped up again in a memorable story? Athough there's no way around it, I think there are physically just too many of them to work effectively in a comicbook format. Other than Taurus and Ares and Gemini, there was generally very little sense of who they were individually, and I remember having trouble remembering who was who in the midst of battle. Plus, they always outnumbered the Avengers, which seemed a little ridiculous. AND their goals were awfully vague-- basically they just seemed like a confederation of crime-boss super-villain wannabees in dubious costumes. And where the heck did their powers come from? But- I feel like seeing and hearing them onscreen (especially w/ these writers) would in fact be more to their benefit. Like the Serpent Society, they could certainly provide a street-level workout w/out the fate of the world being at stake. And they're a HUGE target for amusing derision on the Avengers' part. . . HB
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Post by drew on Apr 10, 2011 7:41:21 GMT -5
HB- The same thought occurred to me, but given the production time I figured it was impossible. Chemistro is a bit obscure, but there are tons of z-list Marvel villains to throw at the Avengers. The Power Tools, Mutant Force, Hell's Belles, never mind the solo guys. There are also some cool bad guys that didn't really get a lot of exposure, like Tombstone, Powderkeg, Cardinal, etc. I still would to see a Scourge storyline in EMH, but at the same time I'm conflicted because even some of the less "kewl!" super baddies can serve some purpose instead of being cannon fodder.
As Mark Waid pointed out in his afterword in Underworld Unleashed, a lot of creators seem ashamed of some of the goofier villains in comics, but most of them were created around a solid concept that is re-attainable. The secret is not changing them to suit the story, but have the story suit them. One of my favorite mini series was Deadly Foes of Spider-Man, where Spidey is basically a secondary character, the Sinister Syndicate eventually turn on each other, and a certain criminal mastermind revealed he had essentially planned the entire thing. A pretty good sequel was released, and they are both worth looking up.
My point is if you treat a creation with some respect, you can usually find something interesting about them, their "hook." In Deadly Foes we saw a lot of character development for Shocker, and it was neat to read. This guy almost killed Spider-man a few times, loses his confidence, then regains it when attacked. It struck the right tone. Then, in Ultimate Spider-Man BMB wrote him as a complete joke. So you have meaningful character development versus a blue joke every few months. Sigh. I don't mind making light of certain characters, but there are better ways of doing it. (The second Mandrill appearance comes to mind.) Yeah, he was poked fun at, but he was outnumbered. On EMH, they just really have a knack for putting characters in the right spot. As everyone seems to agree, their Jan is perfect. She's smart, feisty, a little flighty at times.. she is actually the hub character of the series if you think about it. In an earlier post I said that Hank was getting the best exposure on the show, but it is quickly evening out. I think I was most excited to see the resurrection of Bucky though seeing half the FF was pretty cool too. I still doubt any version of Zodiac could be any good (hasn't there been 4-5 comic versions?) But if they could pull off a Circus of Crime I'd be inclined to believe. P.S. Does anyone else really hate Maria Hill? She is such a moron.
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Post by Shiryu on Apr 11, 2011 0:21:21 GMT -5
Episode 25!!
(can anyone think of a better way to begin a week? I can't ^^)
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Post by drew on Apr 11, 2011 2:25:56 GMT -5
"Ever make a suit of armor?" I have no idea what they are going to do with that (wait, didn't Tony have a suit based on the Destroyer?) but I'm pretty sure the dwarven blacksmith was good old John DiMaggio.
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Post by tomspasic on Apr 11, 2011 6:08:52 GMT -5
I really like this series a lot. I confess I had my doubts when I first heard of it, assuming it would end up as an animated version of the Bendisverse, and be as empty and stupid and dull as the Bendisverse comics. I was very wrong. So far, it's been everything an Avengers fan could hope for, pretty much. The stories and characters are very good, being grounded enough in actual "marvel lore" to satisfy an old-school continuity-type purist like me, but being re-told in a way that keeps it fresh, even when I recognize the source material and know roughly what is likely to happen. Little references to a wider marvel universe are nice, and I am moderately confident that they will bring in other avengers further down the line. Some moments actually make me smile, both the intentional humour, but also when they throw in a direct quote like "Ultron, we would have words with thee". The animation is always of a good standard, it rarely blows me away, but does it's job of storytelling visually, and the fights always look good. For an on-going series, it's very good. Short of them being able to animate in the style of Jack Kirby, The Buscemas or Perez, it's hard to see what could be better, from my point of view.
Overall, I sort of love it. It's a reminder of why I liked the Avengers so much back when marvel used to publish an avengers comic.
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Post by bobc on Apr 11, 2011 9:00:10 GMT -5
Hi Tom. I'm with you-- I haven't bought a single comic since this show came on. After watching these episodes, it only reinforces how dull and poorly written most comics are today. I mean seriously. If anything Bendis-related slithers its way into this show, I will stop watching. man I don't even want to think about that...don't jinx us!!!!!
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Post by bobc on Apr 11, 2011 9:30:24 GMT -5
Just watched 25. I'm done. I just can't take any more. Ulik. Volstagg. Sif. Valkyries. The Hulk more impressive than ever. The Black Panther saving Hawkeye, and Hawkeye being completely ungrateful.
I can only take so much!! My brain is about to explode!!! I feel like this series is single-handedly reminding me why I fell in love with comics as a kid, and the Avengers in particular.
I just about died when I saw Volstagg,
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Post by tomspasic on Apr 11, 2011 12:18:12 GMT -5
I would like to add that there is stuff at marvel that I like at the moment: Avengers Academy, Slott's Amazing Spiderman, even Hickman's Fantastic Four, (except the stupid death-stunt), amongst others. But as far as I'm concerned, marvel has not published an Avengers comic for nearly a decade. Still, the cartoon version is good viewing, and maybe there will even be a decent live-action. Till we get an actual Avengers comic, these will do.
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Post by bobc on Apr 11, 2011 12:35:52 GMT -5
I really like Avengers Academy, too!
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Post by Shiryu on Apr 11, 2011 16:21:29 GMT -5
This episode was brilliant! Did you notice Valkyrie in Sif's group? Or Etri, which is indeed the name of the dwarf who forged Thor's hammer in the myth. It was also great to see Hela, and Ulik!! Oh, and Volstagg introducing himself as "the voluminous" And Hogun and Fandral behind him (although I wonder why they were there and not in Asgard). I think that Loki's voice actor has changed from episode 4, it sounded different, much more nasal and sneaky. One thing I missed: when was Iron-Man's armor destroyed? Didn't he still have it on at the end of last episode? We've already seen glimpses, like a reference to Secret Invasion, but you know... I think these writers can make anything look good. I believe there hardly is such a thing as a poor idea, it's usually just poorly-executed ones, and if anyone can make even some of Bendis stuff look good it's probably these guys.
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Post by bobc on Apr 11, 2011 17:06:20 GMT -5
I didn't understand why Iron Man didn't have his armor either. And yeah I noticed everybody you mentioned!
This show is making me really happy.
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Post by Shiryu on Apr 12, 2011 5:37:02 GMT -5
Episode 26!
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Post by drew on Apr 12, 2011 7:39:59 GMT -5
Ahh! You guys gotta see the new one! I don't want to spoil anything, but it's everything we all like and more. The thing about Cap's shield is troubling, though. The last few minutes tell us where the next arc is going.
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Post by bobc on Apr 12, 2011 13:59:20 GMT -5
uhhhh--gotta say it---I am now very afraid.
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Post by tomspasic on Apr 12, 2011 14:23:25 GMT -5
uhhhh--gotta say it---I am now very afraid. I know exactly what you mean. But instead of thinking "how can they make Stupid Invasion any good?", instead think "they are sort of adapting FF #2", because, with all the stupidity and truly grotesque amounts of padding removed, SI was FF#2 redone. I actually have some faith in the people doing this series, so I'll withhold judgement till I see how they handle it.
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Post by bobc on Apr 12, 2011 15:19:32 GMT -5
"Stupid Invasion" LOLLLLLL!!! That gave me a good chuckle!
I know these creators are amazing so I shouldn't be scared--they haven't let us down yet--but I just can't help it. EMH, despite having literally hundreds of guest stars, villains and minor players, always presents the Avengers as a coherent unit and it is so freakin' refreshing. I mean it has been YEARS of Marvel flailing around, reconing recons upon retcons, characters changing identities, people dieing and coming back, blah blah blah.
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 12, 2011 16:16:24 GMT -5
uhhhh--gotta say it---I am now very afraid. I know exactly what you mean. But instead of thinking "how can they make Stupid Invasion any good?", instead think "they are sort of adapting FF #2", because, with all the stupidity and truly grotesque amounts of padding removed, SI was FF#2 redone. I actually have some faith in the people doing this series, so I'll withhold judgement till I see how they handle it. Well, and don't we indeed have some Bendis-introduced elements already in place? Mind you, I could be quite wrong in my details--- but isn't Maria Hill: Director of SHIELD a Bendis innovation? And Black Widow's "special" relationship with the mysteriously-disappeared Nick Fury (as well as her whole quadruple-agent caper) strikes me as being a much better reinterpretation of Spiderwoman's overwrought (and under-desired) recent history. Any ingredient, color, or note has, on its own, the potential to be terrific or horrendous-- it's simply a matter of how deftly (or not) they're manipulated by the chef, artist, or musician. Really, a plot development or twist doesn't have to automatically be considered bad or illegitimate simply because it was introduced by BMB. The greater disservice is in the poor preparation for, and subsequent execution of them. Perhaps "execution" being an unfortunate word choice, here. . . HB
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Post by tomspasic on Apr 12, 2011 17:08:45 GMT -5
I know exactly what you mean. But instead of thinking "how can they make Stupid Invasion any good?", instead think "they are sort of adapting FF #2", because, with all the stupidity and truly grotesque amounts of padding removed, SI was FF#2 redone. I actually have some faith in the people doing this series, so I'll withhold judgement till I see how they handle it. Well, and don't we indeed have some Bendis-introduced elements already in place? Mind you, I could be quite wrong in my details--- but isn't Maria Hill: Director of SHIELD a Bendis innovation? And Black Widow's "special" relationship with the mysteriously-disappeared Nick Fury (as well as her whole quadruple-agent caper) strikes me as being a much better reinterpretation of Spiderwoman's overwrought (and under-desired) recent history. Any ingredient, color, or note has, on its own, the potential to be terrific or horrendous-- it's simply a matter of how deftly (or not) they're manipulated by the chef, artist, or musician. Really, a plot development or twist doesn't have to automatically be considered bad or illegitimate simply because it was introduced by BMB. The greater disservice is in the poor preparation for, and subsequent execution of them. Perhaps "execution" being an unfortunate word choice, here. . . HB I agree. Hill is I think a Bendis creation. But Widow was playing the double agent game wayyyy back into the sixties in the Avengers, going back to the first Red Guardian story. And since most of Bendis' ideas are just re-hashes of other peoples ideas, they are not, in and of themselves, necessarily bad. As you so rightly say, it's all about the execution, which to date in EMH has been nigh-impeccable.
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Post by spiderwasp on Apr 12, 2011 23:05:33 GMT -5
It's my opinion that Bendis excels at one thing. He is a good IDEA man. The problem is that once his gets an idea, he doesn't know what to do with it and is, therefore, terrible at the execution of said idea. As a result, we often the toss the baby out with the bath water and assume the idea was bad to begin with.
Because of this, it doesn't bother me to much if the animated show delves into Stup, er Secret Invasion because it might actually be interesting to see what good writers could have done with the idea.
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Post by drew on Apr 13, 2011 0:59:04 GMT -5
Does anyone know why Cap's shield was destroyed, then on the bridge after Loki is defeated it's back, then at the mansion it is once again broken? You'd think Odin could fix the thing...I'm tempted to say it was a mistake, but the EMH crew are very detail oriented. Should I write Stan Lee for a No-Prize? And while I'm the last person on the planet to defend Bendis, the real problem is no one is telling him "no, that is stupid." that means the editor is partially to blame. And HB, I completely agree with your Spider-Woman analysis. I'd say the same of Elektra. I'd be fine with not seeing either character for a good long while. I'm not worried about the EMH interpretation of the "Stupid Invasion" (I love that!) Chris Yost and crew obviously know what they are doing, and anytime I'm concerned about something they prove my worries groundless. Bobc, I'm on the same page bro. It's frustrating to have the "big event" and then a month later everybody forgets it happens. It feels like a waste of time and money. I also hate the identity swap unless it makes sense. Winter Soldier becoming Captain America? That's fine. Iron Fist becoming Daredevil? What? Were they close buddies and we never knew? Did anyone else notice Volstagg needing help to get on his feet? I cracked up! And Shiryu, with your evident expertise in Norse Mythology I'm sure you liked Loki's punishment.
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Post by tomspasic on Apr 13, 2011 3:35:37 GMT -5
Does anyone know why Cap's shield was destroyed, then on the bridge after Loki is defeated it's back, then at the mansion it is once again broken? You'd think Odin could fix the thing...I'm tempted to say it was a mistake, but the EMH crew are very detail oriented. Should I write Stan Lee for a No-Prize? I think it's a mistake. Cap has been using someone else's shield (Sif's maybe) during the battle. Then, as you say, in one shot on the bridge has his own, intact (@18:03). The next shot, (@18:06)you can just about see he has the silvery shield again though its largely blocked by Iron...errr... Uru-Man. Then the next time we see him, (@18:10) he definitely has the asgardian shield again. There may be something more to it we have yet to see, but it looks like a simple error to me.
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 13, 2011 4:51:28 GMT -5
It's my opinion that Bendis excels at one thing. He is a good IDEA man. The problem is that once his gets an idea, he doesn't know what to do with it and is, therefore, terrible at the execution of said idea. As a result, we often the toss the baby out with the bath water and assume the idea was bad to begin with. Because of this, it doesn't bother me to much if the animated show delves into Stup, er Secret Invasion because it might actually be interesting to see what good writers could have done with the idea. Wow, this is a commendable concession on your part, SW (especially considering your signature line!). I agree completely. And, given the medium and target audience, I think it's safe to say that S.Inv. in EMH would not be inclined to indulge in multiple episodes devoted entirely to third-tier or never-before-seen characters whom we have little interest in, NOR will it have- say- an entire episode consisting of the interrogation and torture (and execution) of a Skrull prisoner. (One of the most disturbing comics I've ever read. . . ) So there are some things we KNOW we'll automatically be safe from. . . HB
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 13, 2011 5:08:40 GMT -5
Does anyone know why Cap's shield was destroyed, then on the bridge after Loki is defeated it's back, then at the mansion it is once again broken? You'd think Odin could fix the thing...I'm tempted to say it was a mistake, but the EMH crew are very detail oriented. Should I write Stan Lee for a No-Prize? I think it's a mistake. Cap has been using someone else's shield (Sif's maybe) during the battle. Then, as you say, in one shot on the bridge has his own, intact (@18:03). The next shot, (@18:06)you can just about see he has the silvery shield again though its largely blocked by Iron...errr... Uru-Man. Then the next time we see him, (@18:10) he definitely has the asgardian shield again. There may be something more to it we have yet to see, but it looks like a simple error to me. From your description it's quite possible to see how it could be a simple error-- different animators/illustrators working (quickly!) on different shots/scenes, possibly without the full storyboard in front of them (or. . . perhaps the storyboard is a little too simple. . . or they missed a notation. . . ), and the discrepancy isn't caught until 'waaay down the road in the editing process. This is all just wild speculation, of course, as I'm not too well-versed on the mechanics involved here. But it's a LOT of people working on the whole thing! (Example from decades ago: At the end of "Charlie Brown Christmas", during that last choir scene in the snow, one of the little boy's heads simply vanishes for a fraction of a second. BLIP-- it just blinks out. Even that quickly, you figure it still has to have been gone for 5 or 10 cells--- how in the world does someone miss that? Well, that cartoon was also under some huge deadline pressure by that time, and one suspects that the "no-one-will-ever-notice" rationale becomes an 11th-hour straw to cling to. . . HB
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Post by drew on Apr 13, 2011 11:36:59 GMT -5
hb, you crack me up! Yeah, it probably was a simple mistake, but after seeing the EMH crew in action, I'm curious if it could be something more.
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Post by drew on Apr 14, 2011 3:52:37 GMT -5
My thought was after helping to save the nine realms, Cap couldn't get a favor from Odin? I'm guessing we are going to see the original shield, the energy version, and the vibranium "cancer" (making all the vibranium of Earth explode) from a few years back. Which is cool with me, because it means we'll see more Wakanda, more T'Challa, and more Hank Pym. Sounds great to me! I'm converting a few coworkers every week, and it feels great to introduce people to such a high quality show. Strangely, they all seem to dig Thor. I'm thinking it's Natalie Portman... But seeing a steamlined version of the the invasion is going to be great. It wasn't a horrible idea, but it went through the Michael Bay school of writing and came out as a mess. I gotta agree guys, EMH is exactly the Avengers comic I would like to read, but Marvel doesn't publish that anymore... but hey we finally got an outstanding animated show based on the classic team. I'd call that a win. And HB, I think Cap thinks of the Hulk as just another soldier, and the Hulk respects that. I don't mean it in a derogatory way, but when Hulk gets cranky and anyone else is scared of him Cap basically says "We have a job to do, do it." And the rational part of Banner responds.
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Doctor Bong
Young Avenger
Master of belly dancing! (No, really...)
Posts: 73
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 14, 2011 8:00:05 GMT -5
It's my opinion that Bendis excels at one thing. He is a good IDEA man. The problem is that once his gets an idea, he doesn't know what to do with it and is, therefore, terrible at the execution of said idea. As a result, we often the toss the baby out with the bath water and assume the idea was bad to begin with. Because of this, it doesn't bother me to much if the animated show delves into Stup, er Secret Invasion because it might actually be interesting to see what good writers could have done with the idea. Wow, this is a commendable concession on your part, SW (especially considering your signature line!). I agree completely. And, given the medium and target audience, I think it's safe to say that S.Inv. in EMH would not be inclined to indulge in multiple episodes devoted entirely to third-tier or never-before-seen characters whom we have little interest in, NOR will it have- say- an entire episode consisting of the interrogation and torture (and execution) of a Skrull prisoner. (One of the most disturbing comics I've ever read. . . ) So there are some things we KNOW we'll automatically be safe from. . . HB Far from me to argue for argue's sake, HB, but the scene of Loki's punishment, however mythologically accurate, was kinda disturbing to me.... .
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