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Post by dlw66 on Jul 23, 2006 13:30:16 GMT -5
Reflections from my re-read of issues 1-10 on the Avengers DVD-ROM: - Thor has yet to be written with an "Asgardian speak" personality.
- In issue #7, the Enchantress turns Thor against the team (a tired plotline in the first year of Avenging -- in issue #2 it's the Hulk, in issue #10 it's Captain America). As Thor attacks, Giant-Man grows to 40 feet and claims that the strain is too much, that he cannot maintain that height for long; his optimal fighting height is 15 feet. I thought this was interesting almost as a lead-in scene to issues #139-140 when he battles the Whirlwind while the size of a building, and then succumbs to the strain and passes out in the streets, only to grow (while unconscious) to 150 feet!
- In issue #5, Giant-Man displays near-Class 100 strength, by lifting a military helicopter, turning it sideways and using the rotar as a repulsion device.
- The retcon of Zemo into the Captain America mythos works well. As Cap had been out of the mind's eye since 1954 (I believe, and that Captain America was not Steve Rogers), many readers were new to the character and did not recall any of his adventures during the war years. So, for Lee/Kirby to create Zemo and retroactively assign him the murder of Bucky seemed to be no problem. As noted elsewhere, Zemo is not referred to as "Baron" in these books, but sometimes as "Dr.".
- We see a Cap who is brooding, mourning the loss of Bucky. We see him trying to come to grips with new fashions, etc. But, the overall impression of him through the seven issues in which he appears in this run is of a man driven, and a born leader -- many of the Avengers comment on that.
- The Wasp is portrayed as weak, only interested in men and her hairstyle/fashion. While she does bail Hank and others out of some tough spots, I believe there is a scene in issue #10 where it is alluded to that she has some sort of "special Avengers membership"... this is spoken while the men are discussing whether or not to give Rick Jones membership in the team. It's almost as if she was granted hardship because she's a woman!! Which, if you've read Lee/Kirby's FF from the same period, is how Stan wrote women at the time.
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Post by Yellowjacket on Jul 24, 2006 7:27:09 GMT -5
For me (a German) the most important point about Cap always was: I don´t like him the way he´s often displayed in his own series, much too patriotic (pro USA that means) for me. But then, I really do not know much of his own stories, as they were barely published in Germany (perhaps due too that portraying).
But. As an Avengers team member and often times (at least field) leader he is an icon, maybe their most important member at all, nearly indispensable. The soul and spirit of the team -- that´s what Iron Man (imo) for sure is not, like one can see in Civil War.
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Post by bobc on Jul 24, 2006 9:57:33 GMT -5
I liked when the Wasp had a little needle on her wrist as a stinger. My GOD she was useless back then. She seemed to serve no other purpose than to be a kidnap victim--it was awesome. And as far as Giant Man is concerned--his ability to grow has been all over the place.
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 24, 2006 17:14:07 GMT -5
Interestingly, as I've seen the "mad as hell" thread just next door to this one, I'd like to take a second or two to reflect on characterization.
The first 15 1/2 issues of Avengers was built around an all-star team of Marvel's stable of characters of the time. While successful in their own books, Thor, Iron Man, the Hulk, and Giant-Man and the Wasp were brought together to form a supergroup. While I've read in many places that Stan and Jack created the FF in answer to DC's JLA, I think we'd all agree that FF more closely mirror's Challengers of the Unknown while the Avengers are Marvel's counterpart to JLA. That being said, an all-star team only functions well if some are willing to give a little, while others step to the front and go beyond.
Giant-Man is regularly depicted as third-rate in the strength category in the early issues behind Thor and Iron Man. He shows little to no leadership, generally deferring to Cap and Iron Man. As stated above, the Wasp in her personality's early incarnation was for the most part a ditsy damsel-often-in-distress. Even after Cap was added in issue #4, there wasn't any real chemistry on the team. I think we still had a bunch of individuals co-existing alongside one another, rather than melding into a team.
Then the latter half of issue #16 and beyond hit. All of a sudden, Cap was not only the powerhouse, but the elder statesman. While Quicksilver was often respectful, he was brash and impulsive nonetheless. Hawkeye was a worthy partner/antagonist to Cap, and the "love triangle" between Quicksilver/Scarlet Witch/Hawkeye was toyed with from time-to-time (although Hawkeye's admission to the team brought frequent guest appearances from the Black Widow as his love interest). So, by the time the Pyms (yeah, I know they wouldn't be married for another almost 3-years) returned, there was not only team chemistry but also a lot of characterization had taken place. Hank's strength was needed and appreciated, and his character was further developed as a scientist/inventor as well as having the regality of a founder of the team. Jan took on a larger role as Roy Thomas wrote her with a stronger character.
I go over all of this to say the following: It is possible to take a team of all-stars and even remake them into something better, IF YOU TELL US WHO THEY ARE AND WHY WE SHOULD CARE ABOUT THEM. New Avengers might have worked better with a couple of quick-hitter adventures where we could see some group dynamics and then shoot us the obligatory board room scene where the team is seen around the table bickering about whatever. Avengers #19, albeit in Marvel Triple Action form, was my introduction to the team. The first "new" issue I bought myself was #130. Go and re-read those books. You will come away not only knowing who everyone is, but you will have a sense of where they fit and why they fit there.
Characterization takes time, but there has to be an investment of thought and energy in that time first.
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 26, 2006 10:48:37 GMT -5
RE: Avengers 11-13, specifically the Wasp - In #11, which guest-stars Spider-Man, the Wasp refers to her "wasp instinct". I am assuming that is like a "spider sense". Has she ever mentioned this again?
- In #12, Hank tells Jan to shrink immediately, and she remarks something to the effect, "What choice do I have? All you have to do is think about it and I shrink." Hank could mentally cause Jan to shrink?? Has this ever been mentioned again??
- The Wasp does serve as the rotating chairperson, a common practice for this era of the team (one week terms as chairperson). I was surprised to see that, however, given the way she was treated just a few issues earlier.
I would also add that Hank's behavior in these early issues is sometimes aggressive, sometimes non-cooperative. Has any writer ever explored the issue of Hank's continual drug use (first the Pym pills, then the Pym gas, then I guess he'd had enough of the stuff that he could change size at will?)?
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Post by Shiryu on Jul 28, 2006 6:38:16 GMT -5
I don't know about Jan shrinking at Hank's command, but she mentions her "wasp instinct" in one of the earlies Spider-Man annuals. More than a real instinct, it's like she dislikes spiders because wasps do, as if she is identifying herself with her namesake.
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Post by bobc on Jul 28, 2006 8:17:20 GMT -5
Right. Remember that the Wasp had actual wasp cells implanted into her to give her her powers, so this "wasp sense" is kind of like an instinct. Over the years various Avengers have remarked that Jan is "hyper sensitive to certain stimuli" as if to imply she has borderline psychic. After the 60's, to my recollection, no one ever mentioned this sixth sense again.
It's interesting that the Scarlet Witch was also shown to have a special sixth sense, particularly during the late sixties during the Arkon storyline. The Black Panther also had a sort of special "sense" where he could detect alien and supernatural presences before the others could.
My God I'm a full-scale nerd alert! I am actually remembering this stuff off the top of my head. I can't decide if I'm a tragic figure, or breathtakingly knowledgable.
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 28, 2006 12:57:04 GMT -5
I'll give you "breathtakingly knowledgable"!
I do recall that Spidey annual, now that you mention it...
See, I told everyone here they should rush right out and pick up that DVD-ROM. Look at all of the 43-year old material we're conversing about! At least the tone is positive; unlike the 1-2 year old material we also discuss!!
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Post by Shiryu on Aug 1, 2006 5:17:05 GMT -5
I'll be getting it soon I hope As for Black Panther, I think it was his sense of smell, allowing him to feel approaching enemies and / or strong emotions like fear (that result in releasing of certain chemicals from the skin). Would that make sense ?
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 1, 2006 8:27:23 GMT -5
That would make perfect sense to me -- not unlike DD being able to detect a rise in a person's heartrate...
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Post by sharkar on Aug 1, 2006 18:22:58 GMT -5
Hi, everyone. After a few months as a viewer, I have taken the plunge and officially joined your fantastic site. All of the comments and discussions posted are informative, interesting and very enjoyable. Thanks!
Regarding Hank controlling the Wasp's size, Hank's cybernetic helmet control was probably a given in their Tales to Astonish stories (which I have not read), but I believe the first display of this "power" in the Avengers book occurred in #8. Jan is wasp-sized and Kang captures her between his fingers, when suddenly "From across the field, Giant-Man mentally triggers his cybernetic antennae, causing the Wasp to revert to her normal size..." and Kang is left grappling with a normal-sized woman.
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Post by bobc on Aug 2, 2006 9:08:19 GMT -5
Hi Sharkar
Welcome! Yeah I remember Hank forcing Jan to grow using his cybernetic helmet--but to me that whole thing was a very early 60's attempt to make the male character totally in control, while making the female character borderline helpless. This happened all the time back then--Sue Richards would forget she could turn invisible until Reed reminded her, and Marvel Girl was so stupid she would have to have the Beast or Cyclops tell her to levitate herself rather than fall to her death. The sexism back then was shocking--hilarious at times. Like when the Hatemonger made the FF all hate each other, and suddenly the men started calling poor Sue "Useless," which, at the time, she was! Or when The Space Phantom informed The Wasp "BEGONE!! I have more important victims to slay!!!" hee hee! Not good for a girl's self-esteem!
Yes--I am remembering this crap off the top of my head.
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Post by sharkar on Aug 2, 2006 18:49:53 GMT -5
Hey, bobc, I'm laughing at your examples of how the guys had to remind Sue, Jean, et al, to use their powers. You did a great job conveying how women were seen back then. And though Cap would tell Wanda to use her hex power (during the Kooky Quartet days), at least it made sense character-wise: he was the elder statesman and leader on that team and he never hesitated to "remind" Pietro and Hawkeye too: "Hawkeye! Your flare arrow!" "Quicksilver! Your speed!"
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Post by Engage on Aug 2, 2006 18:58:38 GMT -5
Sue Richards would forget she could turn invisible until Reed reminded her
That's assuming she didn't faint from the sight of the villain and/or the heat. It's actually funny reading how the female characters acted in the 60's. They were really only there to be kidnapped and swoon for Namor. The only thing that Sue is able to do without fainting is go shopping.
It sounds like Sue and Jan were interchangeable in the 60s.
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Post by bobc on Aug 2, 2006 20:58:45 GMT -5
Hee hee!! I hope everyone knows I make these posts with great love! Reading these issues from when I wasn't even born helped me understand that era! Another thing I loved from those years was how you could put a cover on a comic that was a complete lie about what happened therein! It was awesome! I was discovering Marvel after Stan Lee and kirby were mostly gone--but even as a kiddo I missed their good-natured chutzpah!
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Post by Shiryu on Aug 4, 2006 5:11:00 GMT -5
This reminds me of the recent Avengers / Fantastic Four Domination Factor LS, have you read it ? The Avengers and the FF are sent by a fake Dr. Strange in different periods of their past, and Sue ends up when Namor and Reed were fighting for her. She says something like "I forgot how you guys used to treat me" and suddenly acts like her present self, basically shutting up both men ;D
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Post by bobc on Aug 4, 2006 9:03:16 GMT -5
Remember when the Wasp was fighting Marvel Girl in their first clash with the X-Men, and the Wasp quipped that as long as no one gave Marvel Girl a fly swatter, she'd be okay? Can you imagine getting defeated with a FLY SWATTER?
The saddest thing is the "battle" between Jan and MG was a draw! I mean come on, that's just pathetic! If you can't beat a person who can be bested by a fly swatter, do you really have any business being a super hero? Hee Hee!
And remember Duo Damsel, from DC? Her power was she could change into two damsels, neither of whom could do chit--so what's the point? 2 X 0 is still 0!! And worse, the poor thing used to be Triplicate Lass, where she could become 3 useless lasses-- but apparently the writers found her too powerful, so they killed off one of her lasses. I could just see the writers panicing "SHE'S JUST TOO POWERFUL!! Imagine her running around with THREE FLY SWATTERS!!! WHAT THEN?!!!"
I recall one Avengers writer was actually told to his face, when he took over writing chores on the book, to never make Wanda very powerful. This was the one rule. It's kind of funny from todays POV.
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Post by Engage on Aug 4, 2006 14:01:31 GMT -5
Kind of funny once they decided to "modernize" the characters they did it all at once. There's like a three issue period where Sue suddenly walks out on Reed for his attitudes towards her. I call it the Age of Thundra.
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Post by bobc on Aug 4, 2006 14:20:54 GMT -5
I loved that era!
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 6, 2006 19:41:53 GMT -5
Whoa, hey, I'm out of town for a couple of days and you guys flat-out left me in 2006 whilst you tripped back to the Silver Age!! But I love it!! Man, go back and re-read this entire thread -- the books were fun and we're having fun talking about them. I guess we're just doing what BMB told us to do...
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Post by bobc on Aug 9, 2006 11:09:27 GMT -5
Remember when Jan "stung" the Sub Mariner, and her stinger (which was just a needle at the time) crumpled up when it hit his steely fish hide? I swear to God Hank Pym was always trying to get her killed by giving her crappy weapons. About all a pin could do is pee somebody like Namor off, making him even more violent!
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 9, 2006 11:34:51 GMT -5
I will update more as I keep going through the Avengers. I've gotten sidetracked the past couple of days because I bought the FF DVD-ROM last weekend (and I'd highly recommend it, too!)!
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Post by bobc on Aug 10, 2006 9:53:49 GMT -5
OMIGOD--Dlw66 is cheating on us with The Fantastic Four!!!!!!!
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 10, 2006 14:54:57 GMT -5
Yep, I am sleazy.
I am picking up the FF right after Essential Vol. 4, so that would be around issue 80 or so. It's better in color, but I still like the affordability (and portability) of the Essentials. Going over this old material (in both books) I am reminded why comics were better back in the 60's-70's. I feel like I know the characters and how they will/should respond to given crises. Sure, there are surprises, but I really feel like I'm dealing with people I know. Not like now, when I feel like I'm dealing with imposters in familiar costumes.
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Post by Engage on Aug 10, 2006 16:37:22 GMT -5
Welcome sleaze brother!
Few things in life are as great as a Thing rant against someone stronger than him. His views on Thor are gold.
Question: Is how we often feel about characters now, with characterization feeling off, the same as people must have felt as weaker female characters became stronger and developed actual personalities?
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Post by bobc on Aug 10, 2006 17:42:03 GMT -5
Hey I read through that era, Engage. About the most exciting thing I ever read in thirty years of buying comics was when Jean Grey mopped the floor with Firelord way back when Phoenix first appeared. Now THAT was exciting! Here we had this previously cancelled, useless Marvel Girl, who used to struggle to lift a bucket of nails telekinetically, easily knocking the crap out of Galactus' herald! EVERYBODY was like whoaaaa--what is going on here? And you can bet yo' azz every one of us was gonna be right there for the next issue!
Same with Electra when she appeared--she wasn't powerful but she was stunningly effective and brutal in an era when women were always goody goody! So it's not necessarilly about power, it's about making a fascinating character that makes you want to know more about her or him!
There is a reason why these ancient stories are being made into movies these days--it's because they were the storyarchs that blasted books like the X-Men and Daredevil into the stratosphere!! And every one of those writers deserved the props they have gotten over the years.
You can bet one thing--there isn't a d**n thing coming out these days that will warrant a successful movie--New Avengers, especially.
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Post by bobc on Aug 10, 2006 18:06:58 GMT -5
And while we're on the subject-- fans today forget that the Scarlet Witch fought the Enchantress to a standstill within a few issues of Wanda being in the Avengers! She was able to cast hex after hex and it was an exciting, memorable battle. The next thing you knew, the poor thing could barely stand after casting one useless hex.
I just don't get it. It's like a mental illness male comic writers have periodically--they have to make the characters more boring and forgettable.
What caught your eye about Storm, intitially? Was it when she lost her powers and cut her hair into a craptastical mohawk? No. It was either when she fought Lorna Dayne over that airport and set the sky on fire, or when she called up a hellacious flood, sweeping all those guards away at Camp Valhalla (I think that was the name). Storm was FASCINATING because she was powerful but soft spoken and mysterious.
People want to see characters who can kick plenty of azz, and nobody wants to see a charcter either do nothing issue after issue, or get their tail kicked every issue. It's not just about power, it's about how you use your abilities to take somebody down.
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Aug 10, 2006 20:34:51 GMT -5
I liked it when women were women (the humanity of it all!), but that's life.
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 11, 2006 9:45:47 GMT -5
bobc, you are groovier than the 70's, m'man!! You are a virtual encyclopedia of my misspent youth!
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Post by bobc on Aug 11, 2006 14:41:38 GMT -5
hee hee!
Oh I "misspent" my youth in way worse ways than just obsessivley reading comics--but going into detail would probably get me banned. This is a family forum!
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