Know the runs: Stern's run

[Shiryu]

I paraphrase an idea from Bored Yesterday to open a talk about some of the classic Avengers runs. And since I have many issues of this one, I start with Stern's run.

Stern's run went from issue 227 to issue 285.
It started with the introduction of Captain Marvel (Photon) to the team, and her quick joining. Photon could may be fit the description of a "pet character" for Stern, but (IMO) he portrayed her really well, both as superhero, as member of the Avengers, as a normal young woman and even as Avengers' leader for a short term. Pity that the character has been often underused ever since Stern left, and only gained some good spotlight with the Busiek run.

He then covered the conclusion of the trial of YJ storyline, including another clash with the Masters of Evil, and went on with either new or classic villains like the Lava Men, Maelstrom, Terminus, Nebula, the Beyonder and even the Olimpic Gods, bringing the team from New York to the Savage Land, from Earth to outer space and to Olympus.

A great lot of attention was given to characterization: the Wasp appeared once more as a capable leader, and the Vision was almost torn aside by his robotic mind and his (human) wish for good, resulting in a peaceful take over of the world for a few minutes.

The most famous arc of Stern's run is probably the Under Siege storyline, which we've commented elsewhere and is still regarded as an all times classic, showing that even more than their strenght and powers, is their spirits that Avengers rely upon in dark times. Personally, I love the "battle with the gods" storyline too.

Characters wise, besides Photon, Stern introduced to the team some either new (Avengers wise) or long missing characters, staying true to their personality and playing very well with the personal clashes that sometimes can (and often do) undermine the team. Some of these characters were Starfox, Hercules, Black Knight and Namor.

Art wise, he mostly worked with Al Milgrom (whos work probably only he, me and other 5 or 6 people in the world like : and the great John Buscema.

Finally, it's worth noticing that Stern's run was shortly interrupted by a great quality fill-in by Bob Harras in issue 280 ("Faithful servant"), it was clearly a wonderful time for the Avengers

[Shiryu]

May be I should have added "comments ?"

[bobc]

I really never paid attention to who was writing the Avengers back in those days--I was always more focused on the artist. Looking back on it, I think Stern was one of the best writers ever. I recently bought the trade paperback of "Under Siege" and was pleasantly surprised at how good it was.

I hated the Al Milgrom issues though, entirely because of the art. John B is my favorite!!

[Bored Yesterday]

I liked how the Masters of Evil took out Hercules -- went out carousing with him, and put something in his ale. He was just WASTED when he went into the mansion -- got the tar beat out of him. The Captains Marvel and America couldn't stop him.

But Poor Jarvis! Didn't he wear an eye patch for awhile as a result of his injuries?

And I liked where the Masters of Evil found Cap's triangular shield from World War II -- and I believe they destroyed it.

[bobc]

I liked the way Hercules was taken out too. I remember reading on some forum that some fan didn't like how Stern wrote Hercules--saying he made Hercules stupid. I didn't see it that way at all. I saw Hercules as stubborn, headstrong, sexist and rowdy. In fact, I would go so far as to say Stern's run was the first time Hercules ever had a clear, defined personality. Before that, Hercules was a run-of-the-mill powerhouse super hero, IMO. I liked the personality flaws.

[Bored Yesterday]

Yeah, it really made him unique. Gave hime the flaws to go along with his power -- sort of like other Greek heroes. It really made him stand out as more than a version of Thor without lightning.

And eventhough I enjoyed Stern's run immensely -- I think this was a sad turn for the Vision. In other threads we've discussed the transformation of the Vision from a synthezoid to an android. A big part of that began in this run. Vision was seen interfacing with other computers like R2D2. That mis-characterization aside, the stories were excellent.

[Bored Yesterday]

Of course, as a climax to the Vision's ongoing identity issues, there was no beating it. It was nice how writers would riff off each other's work in those days -- instead of just retconning each other's stories out of existence.

t's like, Englehart picked up on the "Vision's identity" thread started by Thomas and added to the melody by marrying him to the Scarlet Witch -- giving the story a manfiestation outside Vision's though balloons -- (off topic, but: can Professor X read Vision's mind?) Shooter threw in some jazz about the Bride of Ultron, Michelinie carried that tune for a while until Jocasta left the team -- it was all like a mad jazz jam session that played out over 20 years. Stern's take on the Vision as a menacing machine was an interesting direction to go, even if it changed the melody a little bit.

But anway -- there were obviously more elements to it than this, but you can see what I'm saying. The introduciton of Wonder Man was related, because a lot of the fun of that character at the time was his identity as the flesh and blood version of the Vision. I didn't follow the West Coast developments much -- when Vision got his new body -- so I don't know what that's all about. After Stern, I think the song changed. Byrne played a part with the Human Torch thing -- and whatever.

[bobc]

I personally felt that showing the Vision's thoughts, ever, was a big faux pas. I liked the Vision when he was more mysterious, when you never knew what he was really thinking. I liked the vision when he was spooky.

I barely remember that whole Vision storyline when he merged with a computer. In fact, that era was when I almost lost interest in the Avengers, mainly because I thought the art was mediocre.

[Alaric]

Well, Under Siege and the war with Olympus were two of my all-time favorite Avengers stories, but in the early part of Stern's run, I hated the way he characterized the Wasp. Not the fact that she made a good leader- the fact that she came across (to me, at least) as completely shallow and self-absorbed. Even in the early Avengers issues, she's never really seemed that way to me.

Still, by the time the Masters of Evil attacked, I think Stern had a much better grasp of Jan's personality. Of course, the Buscema art may have had something to do with that- Jhon Buscema always had a talent for gviing Jan a lot of persoanlity without using words.

As far as Milrom is concerned, I always thought the only thing really wrong with his artwork was the way he posed his figures- but that could be more than enough...

[bobc]

I loved the War with Olympus storyline too. Great art, great story. I think that was the first time I realized what a great character She Hulk was/is.

Man that had to be the strongest Avengers lineup ever--She Hulk, Thor, Sub-Mariner, and Hercules all at one time. I wouldn't mess with them!

[Shiryu]

To be picky, Hercules and Thor were not on the team together. Hercules joined in Thor's place when Surtur's armies attacked N.Y, and Thor joined back after Hercules was defeated by the Masters of Evil
Despite that, I agree it was a great line up. Captain Marvel had so many powers that she was often considered as the most dangerous Avengers by the enemies, and Black Knight was (and still is) really skillfull with his ebony sword. Zeus was a great villain too, virtually unstoppable no matter what the Avengers, and even Thor, tried against him.

[bobc]

well, they might not have been on the roster, but they was there!!!!!

[Shiryu]

Fair enough

[asgardian]

I enjoyed the Stern run but felt it really didn't go places until Milgrom left and Buscema began. Milgrom 's art always seemed a tad silly to me and spoiled the otherwise excellent Annual in which the teams fight Maelstrom.

As to Under Siege, it is worth noting that even AFTER Hercules had been drugged with an incredible amount of sedatives, he was STILL beating the Tar out of the Master of Evil until Goliath arrived and amped to take Hercules out. The Olympus story was a logical follow-up. Loved the fight with Zeus when the team went all out.

[Ultron]

And to think a giant like Roger Stern doesn't get a job in regular comics these days! Borderline criminal...!

(he his writing a JLA run with John Byrne though for DC)

[bobc]

I agree that the run got great once Buscema joined up--Milgrom's art is just terrible. I can't see any writer rising above that.

On the positive side--yeah the Olympus story was a great follow-up, for many reasons. It allowed the high powered Avengers to seriously show what they were capable of (that chance doesn't come along often), but at the same time the lesser powered characters like Black Knight and the Wasp never got lost in the shuffle. That alone showed Stern's skill as a writer IMO. The respectful relationship between arrogant Sub-mariner and Captain America was never better shown than in this story arch, particularly when Cap gave Namor his shield. That was a Big Deal.

Asgarian--you're right that Hercules really showed his immense power against the MOE. Stern, however, also showed his vulnerability to women and alcohol too, which ultimately brought him down. That whole trap showed Zemo as a most cunning enemy/planner. Zemo deserved to be running that show.

Man it makes me feel sad to see how shallow comics have become. A great woman once said "Americans can no longer create Great Art, they can only rip it down."

[von Bek]

Do you guys think that Stern´s departure from the book (thank to problems with editors) was the beginning of the end for the Avengers and the rise of the X-Crazy? I do.

[dlw66]

vonbek raises a good question: when (to you, at least) was the last time the Avengers was consistently a good comic? Consistently, as in a 3-4 year stretch of issues. vonbek might have something here with the notion that Stern's run (I would also add that the art change from Buscema/Palmer to Epting/Palmer might coincide here...) was a turning point in the franchise.

[von Bek]

dlw66 said:

vonbek might have something here with the notion that Stern's run (I would also add that the art change from Buscema/Palmer to Epting/Palmer might coincide here...) was a turning point in the franchise.

Buscema and Palmer stayed a little longer (until the early 300s IIRC), but after Stern left the team (and the book) began to loose consistency and try to be what was the 'flavor of the month' over and over again, until heroes reborn, when Marvel tried to turn it into an Image comic.
And altough I did enjoy Busiek's run immensly, it was more a nostalgia trip than actually adding much new, what culminate in NA...

[bobc]

I don't have the issues in front of me, but I would say that the two runs that stand out in my mind were the Under Siege-Olympus storylines and the Perez issues years later. What came between and after are kind of a blur. I remember that sea serpent thing (Buscema drew the issues I think) with Marrina but thought the story was bad--I started to lose interest around that time. I recall also being shocked at how bad Heroes Reborn was (from every concievable angle--it was almost like they were trying to shake off readers) but I suppose that goes without saying. The stories after Perez left were just kind of okay, pretty forgettable.

That whole Red Skull storyarch was okay I guess but I thought the Black Panther breaking the Red Skull's lower face was too much. I don't like how writers these days make the Panther some sort of boxer--I liked when he was catlike and the best acrobat Marvel had in their stable. He was more exciting then IMO

[asgardian]

Unfortunately, after Stern it was all rubbish until Busiek arrived. Quite depressing actually - over 100 issues of garbage. Harras was an arrogant buffoon (met him) who had no idea about the team and drove the title into the ground with his "I know best attitude." Deathcry? Flak jackets? Ugh.

[dlw66]

Ah, a kindred spirit in the form of a fellow bomber jacket-hater!!

Busiek and Perez were OK. I didn't care for the very long cult storyline, nor Triathlon for that matter (although the tie to 3-D Man was kind of cool for an old 70's guy like me). The Kang story that happened toward the end of Vol. III was pretty good, but I'd agree that the She-Hulk, Red Skull, and Hank going down on Jan stories were pretty poor. I still can't believe that the same Geoff Johns who writes for DC is the guy who did the aforementioned sex scene...

The Marrina story that bobc mentioned was a particular non-favorite as well. I just could not see Namor with her after someone so glamorous as the Lady Dorma. I guess love is blind.

Late in Vol. I when the Black Knight killed the Supreme Intelligence was a line crossed for me. Was that in the Harras run? I thought it, and consider this analogy, might have been when "Wolverine" first joined the team (if you know what I'm getting at...).

[asgardian]

I agree about Triathlon. That was pretty weak. Just not interesting. I would also have liked to have seen more classic types there. Forget Firestar and Justice - I wanted Photon and Quicksilver as regulars.

[dlw66]

At the risk of banging on Kurt Busiek the way we do with Bendis' "pet characters", you could certainly argue that Justice and Firestar, as well as Triathlon, were "pets". For having such a long run (4+ years?), I too felt that Kurt and George could have worked in some of the oldies... But, the rest of the team was A-list, so that made up for tucking the pets in the corner. Bendis is featuring the pets -- totally different dynamics.

[Van Plexico]

What Busiek was doing with the three characters you mention was very specific and deliberate.

He brought Justice and Firestar onto the team because 1) I think he felt that most noteable writers of AVENGERS had added someone new, so why not, and 2) he wanted a couple of younger, less experienced characters who could react to being among these "gods."

Triathlon had an even more specific reason to exist: He was Kurt's version of the Swordsman, a character who joins the team and seems to be just another member, but has a sort of hidden agenda and causes suspicion and doubt among the team, and builds toward a big storyline he's directly related to.

Kurt has said his favorite AVENGERS story was Giant-Sized #2, with the death of the Swordsman.

My main complaint about the entire Triathlon/Triune story, back at the time, btw, was that I loved everything but the ending. After all the shaded motivations that might have existed, the baddie turned out to have very boring reasons for doing what he did. I expected better from Kurt and Tom Brevoort. Ah well.

[Shiryu]

Well, one could argue that Photon was Stern's "pet character", and even that Wanda, Quicksilver and Hawkeye were Thomas'.

It's probably good for a writer to have a couple of characters he can do everything he wants with. He can make them heroes or jerks without too many complaints from fans, and make them develop from 1 to 10 in a bunch of issues. Existing characters are harder to handle, especially if one wants to add something new.

[dlw66]

Good point. In a group book it would be easier to manipulate characters who are only appearing in your book, without having to battle through what writers/editors are working on in the solo book. However, that is usually why both Marvel and DC put many of their books under a group "umbrella" to maintain consistency across titles.

[asgardian]

I find it disappointing that so few writers were able to handle my favourite Avenger (the username should tell you who it is). The skill lies in crafting a story where he doesn't show up and cream the villain in two panels flat. Anyway.

[Shiryu]

Thor is probably one of the toughest to handle, he is so strong he could defeat most enemies alone. I remember a very old issue where he defeated single handed an enemy that had previously defeated all the rest of the team (I think it was shortly after Moondragon joined for the first time).

[bobc]

I don't think Thor's so hard to write in the Avengers--the team's always had some extremely powerful members on it, including hercules, Hulk, Wonder Man, Sub-Mariner etc. I think the power differential could make for some interesting plot twists, like back in the 80's when everyone thought Thor was arrogant and full of himself, which he kind of is. BUT after all, when you're the God of Thunder you can afford to shuck off a little attitude.

I say it's all about how you use the character's abilities. I always liked to see how various member's abilities mesh into the larger unit.