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Post by uberwolf on Mar 16, 2007 10:30:09 GMT -5
One of my major complaints with Marvel these days is the lack of innocence in their stories. It's been noted here that they have introduced an air of hopelessness but I think it goes beyond this. In my opinion it's one of the reasons Doom and the Doubleya have trouble understanding us older readers take on the current MU.
The heroes I read about when I was young, well, they were heroes. They had the power of gods and unselfishly used these abilities to help their fellow man for the good of the world. Granted, by todays standards they may seem campy or silly, but it is the suspension of belief that comics are all about. No one is that good and honest in real life, but that's what made them great. And while Marvel built it's whole empire on adding some reality to the genre, I think they've gone too far.
If I want to read about supposedly good people fighting each other, making huge selfish mistakes and getting innocent people killed to force their agenda I'll pick up a freakin' newspaper. The heroes of my youth would never force the whole current CW mess. Marvel has humanized their heroes too much in my opinion, making them not so much good people with powers but making them in some cases as bad if not worse than the villains they're fighting and that just seems wrong to me. I mean sure, there would be a guest hero every now and then and they'd mix it up for a bit before the mistake was sorted out and they'd team up, but that was for the fans.
When our newer readers started comics, Marvel was already starting it's slide into darkness. They were not exposed to the more innocent times us older readers look fondly back on. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but Doom and W, your wonderful memories of discovering the MU are not the same as ours and I think this is where the conflict is. Your childhood heroes were just not as heroic as ours. Sure you can go back and read the older comics, but it will never have the same effect on you because you were not experiencing it as it happened. You've already been affected by a darker Marvel.
The heroes of my day fought god like villians of tremedous power. Iron Man taking on the Blood Brothers and Thanos alone, Captain America taking on Modok, alone, Spiderman fighting Firelord, a freaking herald of Galactus, alone. What do we get from Bendis? Earths mightiest heroes fighting ... ninjas? I'm sorry, I can't get over the ninja thing.
Today's Marvel is as much heroes fighting heroes as it is fighting villains. The MU has become one big blotch of gray, there is little black and white anymore and that's not what I wish to read. I like coming here and comparing notes with people who are my age and understand my take on Marvel history and characters. Call me a hater if you wish, I'm not going to change my opinion just because a few people can't understand my point of view.
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 16, 2007 11:03:30 GMT -5
This was an amazing post. It captures exactly what my problem is with the current MU, and I think shows why many people simple don't understand the old timers (god I am only 33 and I am considered an old timer).
This is not to say that Doom's or W's views are wrong, they are simple different, and I think the above post, explains it very well.
An exalt for you.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 16, 2007 11:41:07 GMT -5
I'm 36, I guess that also makes me an old timer.
So what you are saying is that for you Marvel was a place to go to escape reality? The fact that the heroes were above these things meant a lot to you.
Thing is this, the heroes we grew up with were written at the time, by old timers. Now theyy are written by guys who are a product of todays society. That could be why the heroes are disillusioned as well.
I don't know that it makes them worse than they were when they were originally written. It still manages to keep my interest. The flawed hero makes it easier for me to associate sometimes.
Thats only my opinion though.
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 16, 2007 11:48:08 GMT -5
Many heroes where flawed when I first read comics, take Henry Pym for example. Look at some of the Uncanny X-Men from the 80's. They where flawed, they difference was they raised above their flaws and did what was right in the end. In my opinion that is no longer true of marvels "Super-heroes". Now you don't know if the hero is going to do the right thing.
Also comics are escapism, if I want reality, I will go watch the news.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 16, 2007 11:52:17 GMT -5
Very true,... and I agree with the ability, in the end for the hero to rise above. Thi is why I'm so disappointed with what is happening with Iron Man. I think about Tony's ability to rise above.
I agree with the opinion that they are dragging the heroes way down. But it still holds my interest.
Maybe I am still being foolishly optimistic that they will find a way to fight above the garbage again.
But maybe it is just me being foolish. Won't be the first time.
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 16, 2007 12:15:50 GMT -5
I don't call optimisim or hope foolish. Unfortuantly I think it may be misguided with the current mu management and major writers. Except for a few comics, all of marvel is one big downer, and has been really since Bendis took over the Avengers. (not blaming bendis on this, it is just the marker for the major turn to a more "real" mu. I have joked that the comics in the MU have become more like bad teen angst tv series, but really it is the truth in my opinion.
Anyway sorry for being a downer, and keep up your optimism. My optimism is that someday Cap (steve rogers) will come back, and that the Avengers will be Earths mightest heroes again. Until then I guess "Make mine DC"
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 16, 2007 12:24:14 GMT -5
uberwolf, I'd also like to add my "thanks" for such a spot-on post. I've written stuff like this around here many times -- your's is just kind of an "update".
I, too, don't begrudge our younger friends their time. But I think what you've said, and again we've discussed before, is that the older reader (the Bronze Age baby, I guess) is left out of the mix called "new comics". Some of us (myself, ua2 come to mind) said that "our" Marvel Universe has ended. For me, the Avengers universe that I knew died when Dane Whitman killed the Supreme Intelligence. He crossed a line that Avengers don't cross (understood -- Wolverine isn't an Avenger and I wish they'd quit forcing that on us). Similarly, Norman Osborn's return killed Spider-Man for me. The oversaturation of the X-universe likewise did that book in for me.
In each of these examples, editorial approved changes/evolutions that destroyed a status quo that wasn't broken. I would rather have seen another psychologist (a la Dr. Bart Hamilton, circa 1977) take on the mantle of the Goblin than obliterate the story that was The Death of Gwen Stacy/The Death of the Green Goblin. The X-Men were at their best when there was conflict between the team members and old and new members started to intermingle. When there were 17 X-books on the market, it drove down my demand -- simple economics: if everyone who wants one has two, it ain't worth much. And worst of all, Dane Whitman forgot what virtually all of Marvel's personnel has forgotten -- that with great power there must also come great responsibility.
I concur with the realism that Rex has complained about. If I want that type of carnage and immorality, I'll pick up a Newsweek or People magazine. I want to be uplifted by my comics, to believe that right is right and will triumph -- perhaps through extreme adveristy, but triumph nonetheless. I want competent aritists who know human anatomy, and writers who can write a 6-issue story, not a 1 issue story spread over half a year. Forget the trade paperback as the driver of literature -- whatever happened to one main story and two backstories curiously developing? Wait -- developing?
I think I've lost my innocence...
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 16, 2007 12:43:48 GMT -5
I hate threads like this. I think you know that. But I may surprise you- it's not for the reason you think. I don't hate these threads because there's too much moaning. I hate them because they make me feel like the bad guy. I don't want to think of myself as the guy who comes in and is into whatever's new and hip and you old-timer freaks can go away 'cos you're PAST! I don't think of myself like that and these threads make me feel like that. I just think honestly, it's different taste. Marvel has ALWAYS been more realistic than DC. That's pretty much a staple thing- the heroes have ALWAYS been far more human, more prone to mistakes- that was so succesful Marvel basically FORCED DC to do things more their way. I like the idea that these people are human. I think the reason Spider-Man is so wildly popular is because we can all EMPATHISE iwth him because he's an everyman and more often than not he makes wrong decisions- only because he's a hero, his decisions lead to many more people being hurt. I don't think it's a loss of innocence. I think it depends on the book. Fantastic Four should always, in my mind, be light and happy because it's a book about explorers, imaginauts, it's our Four and they go off and explore Dimension YXZ because that's what they do! But they're a family, so they bicker and they argue and it's fun, and it's light and that's why the F4 have always edged out the Avengers as my favourite super-hero team. But by contrast, Spider-Man, for me, is always at his best when he's dark, when he's brooding. It's a different tone of book. And I think that we see the heroes struggle through so much, we see them go into darker times, and it means that when they DO perservere- as they often do, then it makes it feel a thousand times more of a triumph. And when they don't? I'm emotionally connected, I'm devastated when I see Spider-Man fail- the BEST Spider-Man story ever written (In my mind) is hinged on Spider-Man's failure. Just as my favourite F4 story is about them falling to their all-time low before emerging, before triumphing, because they are a FAMILY. If a hero fails, if they do fall, then it just means that when they get back up it will be all the greater and adds a level of unpredictability because we can't be secure in the knowledge that they will always rise. So I apologize for the rambling but I completely disagree with your premise. It's nothing against you, any of you- I simply have a different opinion and enjoy different things. And I would never call a light-hearted story bad writing just because it was light-hearted, or say I despise The Kree/Skrull War because it was too camp, or any rubbish like that- it's simply not to my taste, not my type of thing. And that's where I get frustrated with you- because many of you just say any story you don't like is bad, and that what you possess is not a different taste... it's just "taste". And Uberwolf no offence, but one thing I don't like is this: You keep saying The W and I don't understand why you feel the way you do. I can't speak for him, I'll let him do that but I want to say: I DO understand, I just don't agree. Please don't confuse these two
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Post by Tana Nile on Mar 16, 2007 12:47:10 GMT -5
I can pretty much agree with everything Uberwolf has said (and a karma point for him ), as well as dlw and others. Oh and dlw - 'Bronze Age baby' - I like that term! I think us BAB's know full well the world is not a great happy place -we grew up on the cusp of Vietnam and Watergate after all - but we go to comics to see people who rise above, who are better than ourselves and provide some relief from the tragedies of the real world. Maybe I am like Cap, and out of touch with what the people want...that's not bad company to be in, though...
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 16, 2007 12:50:26 GMT -5
I hear you Doom -- and agree with your posit. Bad taste, good taste -- it's so subjective. I know I don't mean to make you feel like an outsider. It's why I did the age poll -- I wanted to see what our usership is around here, and it just so happens that you and W are the youngest and unfortunately few in number. And you can call Kree/Skrull campy and depending on whatever your POV is, I might not disagree. I just wish you'd post your thoughts on it and other "classic" stuff -- it's been a few weeks now since you said you would do that. I want you to create a dialogue on "my" stuff, as I've participated in dialogues on what I guess I would now call "your stuff".
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 16, 2007 12:53:38 GMT -5
...I know I said I'd do that dlw, but the problem is that honestly every time I try I find myself writing a biting, scathing review and thinking "There! I've now analysed this to the detail so many analyse civil war and it totally falls apart!" Then I feel bad because I still enjoy the story.
Maybe I should put up two; one of my actual thoughts, and one of the ridiculous standard modern comics are held up to, in the same thread. Perhaps I shall, I did read "The only good Kree..." recently...
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 16, 2007 12:55:36 GMT -5
Doom, I read your post, and it was well written, but after reading it, I found the one thing that you missed that we have all said. We believe in heroes that raise above, that do the right thing no matter what. That is no longer something that happens in the MU. To use your spiderman example. Yes, he is human, yes he makes mistakes, but in the end you knew that he was a hero, and he would do the right thing no matter how it hurt him, or those he loves. That in my opinion is the differense behind "the bronze age" (I love that one to dlw). and "the modern Age". I don't think you have bad taste at all, just different. And that diffference I think makes it hard for you to see what we are saying.
I guess like tananile is right, much like Cap time has past us by, and if Cap's time is done, perhaps mine is as well.
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 16, 2007 12:58:51 GMT -5
That's an interesting point you raise! I believe you that we look at comics sometimes through different eyes, different standards. For example, I maintain a soft spot for the comics of my youth because that is the reference point for my "golden age". But when comparing some of today's art and story themes, I recognize the simplicity of yore. Does that change my opinion of those old stories? Not necessarily. They still remain some of my favorites. But I guess I look at them with different eyes.
Why don't you post two reviews? I think one through the "I'm gonna get you suckers back" eyes would be interesting laid next to an "I'm a comics geek at heart" review. Do it -- I'd like to see what you come up with!!!
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 16, 2007 13:03:23 GMT -5
But Doom something else I noticed. You say you feel like the bad guy. You shouldn't. That is the WONDERFUL thing about this board. You and me, or W and Baloc,. or anyone can disagree. We can disagree strongly. We can throw Marvel fact at each other like snowballs. But nobody is the the bad guy. I think it's wonderful that we all enjoy these bboks so much that we have strong feelings about them. Your strong opinions show you are thinking about comics rather than just buying them because a publisher says so. I don't think anyone wants anyone else to feel like a bad guy. Until you disagree with me again,.. then watch out.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 16, 2007 13:03:55 GMT -5
Actually, and this may also be a difference in eras- I'm not sure that's true. The Spider-Man I know loves his Aunt May and Mary-Jane so much that if it came down to choosing between MJ and 50 civilians, I honestly believe it would be the most agonizing decision of his life. I mean more agonizing than MOST hero decisions. I think Spidey has a stronger attachment to his family than most, and there's a greater chance of him going for MJ than there is with most heroes in this situation!
But again, I think we see enough of heroes acting like heroes and seeing things that muddy the wayers is more realistic and makes those times they ARE heroes more meaningful. This is 100% taste, no doubt about it, so I'll argue no more!
And DLW, you've inspired me now. Expect some "Bash the Classics" up within a day!
And Nutcase, thanks for the reassurance. It's just that often on this board I really do feel like the bad guy even though I stand up for what I believe. Guess I know how Iron Man feels!
(On a side note, is it me or is nutcase the single most active new member in the history of this forum? You've been here like a week and your opinion is EVERYWHERE. I just want to say it's BRILLIANT. Keep it up, I wish all new members weighed in as much as you!)
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 16, 2007 13:09:19 GMT -5
Doom, I agree with you on Spidey, he would agonize but in the end he would save the 50 civilians, why because he is a hero, and takes the old adage "with great power comes great responsiblity" to heart. I love some of the darker stuff, mainly because I know that in the end the heroes that I grow up with, would come through in the end. They would still be the hero. Now it does not be so. The hero does not always come through in the end, they are not always the hero, the shades of grey have caught up.
You really have made me think if comics are for me anymore..
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Post by uberwolf on Mar 16, 2007 13:13:03 GMT -5
And Uberwolf no offense, but one thing I don't like is this: You keep saying The W and I don't understand why you feel the way you do. I can't speak for him, I'll let him do that but I want to say: I DO understand, I just don't agree. Please don't confuse these two Excellent reply Doom. Bad use of words on my part. Just trying to explain why "I" don't like the current MU. Maybe some day there'll be some middle ground we can agree on. I knew I wasn't the first to say this, thanks to dlw66 for the inspiration.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 16, 2007 13:16:49 GMT -5
You think I talk a lot on here. You should see me in person. Actually living in a tiny southern town I don't get to talk about this particular passion too often. I grew up with a core group of friends who ere all into comics and we always would get into it, like we do here. I've missed it so much that I'm just unloading several years of wanting to talk comics. I am soooo glad I found this site.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 16, 2007 13:52:37 GMT -5
May I just say overall that while initially I said I hated this type of thread, the quality of the replies is the sort of thing that made me love this website. We're disagreeing, we're trading points on the issues, but we're doing so very civilly, courteously and respectfully and we're recognizing differences of opinion and that's okay. Maybe it's just me but I seem to remember a time when most of this board constitued that, instead of the petty squabbling we've often, myself most certainly included, devolved into lately! Thank you for being so gentlemanly on our disagreements,- Uberwolf, DLW, Black Knight- all of you! (And Nutcase, as someone who has for a very long time been the sole comics fan in my area, I'm pleased to say I have slowly dragged several of my friends into it simply through force of will. And Civil War helped more than a little in that regard )
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 16, 2007 14:05:39 GMT -5
Doom, Actually I would like to thank you, you have made me take a hard look at wether or not comics are something I want to stay in anymore. (This is not a bad thing, just some things that you said have made me think)
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Post by thew40 on Mar 16, 2007 15:37:06 GMT -5
Threads like these make me feel like it's impossible to like comics from all decades. I love tales told from the 60s-- ah, hell, even the 1930s! I really do. I like comics from the 30s, 40s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and today (note the lack of 50s; that's mainly just because I haven't read any from that era). And if I may be so bold . . . Comics (and indeed, most forms of entertain) often times reflect what is happening in the world today. Back in the 40s, it was all about World War 2. So what was Captain America and gang doing? Fighting the Nazis. Back in the late 60s, there was that issue of "Amazing Spider-Man" that dealt with drug use. "Secret Empire" dealt with corruption in the government -- going all the way to the White House. The Cold War played a part in various 80s Marvel Comics. 90s television and movies were all about sex and violence (more graphic than any other age), so comics reflected that. And what is going in the world right now? Well, civil rights is a big topic, so Marvel is covering ground there. So is reality. Reality television dominates the airwaves. There's a push to make entertainment for real, or at least fall in line with that. Hence the more "realistic" comics. I feel the need to question whether or not just because something is more realistic, it's provides less of an escape. Often times, if something in the real world is paralelled in an entertainment form, it can create a stronger bond between viewer and entertainment. Seeing familair elements can make reader/viewer feel stronger about what's unfolding before them. To me, the heroes are still heroes. Yes, even Iron Man. As Van recently pointed in out the comparison of Iron Man and Doctor Doom, Iron Man did what he felt was best in the interest of the greater people. Oh, and the coincidential gods smiling upon me today! This is from FFPlaza.com. In a recent review of Fantastic Four # 543, the reviewer had this to say: I found this to be a very interesting thought. www.ffplaza.com/library/?issue=ff543v3~W~
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 16, 2007 15:55:43 GMT -5
See, for me it still provides an avenue of escape. Even though it reflects the current issues and attitude because it has my favorite heroes dealing with the same things. To see these attitudes have negative lasting negative effects on some of the heroes is just part of what interests me. Again , just clinging to hope that they'll come back aroud. (c'mon shellhead, you can do it)
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Post by uberwolf on Mar 16, 2007 16:12:08 GMT -5
Heh here we go. Once again, it's all a matter of opinion. I personally hate reality TV and can honestly say I've never seen an entire episode of reality TV, unless Mythbusters counts. I don't like reality TV so if todays comics reflect this trend than it makes sense I don't like todays comics. Why can't I say I don't like the present Marvel? You can like comics from every single decade back to the stone age, that's your right. I'm just stating how I feel.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 16, 2007 16:57:32 GMT -5
and that is perfectly OK. Differing opinions are what makes boards like this worth visiting.
Example
Doom: Boy I love Bendis Nutcase : Really, I love Bendis too Uberwolf: I really love Bendis TheW40: But I love Bendis more etc. etc.
See that would be really boring (also nauseating)
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Post by uberwolf on Mar 16, 2007 17:19:28 GMT -5
Uberwolf: I really love Bendis TheW40: But I love Bendis more Um.... I think it's safe to say you will NEVER see this happen.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 16, 2007 17:37:44 GMT -5
see, differing opinions can be a VERY good thing ;D
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 16, 2007 17:53:43 GMT -5
To be fair, I think it would be JUST as boring and rubbish if it went: The W: Boy I hate Bendis! Nutcase: Yeah, me too. I hate his dialogue. Ua2: I think he writes all his characters wrong! Uberwolf: You know who else suck? Quesada and Millar Night Phantom: Yeah! I agree! I HATE them! Doom: I think we should burn Bendis in effigy! ...Actually strike that, most of you would probably love it! (j/k ) That's why The W and I and a few others have to be here- we're the checks and balances, we keep things from getting too birng for you
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 16, 2007 17:59:07 GMT -5
Doom, that is exactly the point I'm trying to make. If everyone was for, or everyone was against something it would be a snoozefest and non-enjoyable.
Checks and balance is exactly right.
For the record I don't hate Bendis. I would PROBABLY hit the brakes if I saw him crossing the street in front of my car.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Mar 16, 2007 18:09:11 GMT -5
Probably...? Seriously, to checks & balances!
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 16, 2007 18:14:16 GMT -5
Seriously, to checks & balances! If I am rabidly for something. I start a string and rant and rant about how great it is. Four other people are for it as well and bulk up the string ranting and ranting about how great it is. There will be people who pass by the string who dont like whatever it is. Some people don't have strong wills and start thinking 'I must not be very smart, appearantly this is good and I have bad taste" By having differing opinions you don't have one thread full of praise and worship all the time. It also shows New Avenger status posters that it's OK to disagree with Avenger status posters. Get on here speak your mind. Like I do, repeatedly as Doom points out and yes, probably.
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