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Post by spiderwasp on May 9, 2006 18:15:10 GMT -5
I have always been a "good story first" guy-- ask anyone I used to deal with (or, rather, anyone who used to have to deal with me!) on MV-1. That being said, a decent respect for the property at hand would dictate at least a little research being done, before writing. I would also add that one of Kurt Busiek's great achievements was that not only did he write IMO brilliant stories, with excellent characterization, dialogue, pacing, and action, BUT--- he also not only respected AVENGERS history and didn't harm it, he intentionally repaired some things that had been damaged by previous writers and made a lot of it work or make sense again. His run, I think, was undervalued at the time, and will only be more respected in years to come, as people look back on it. There are definately some of us already greatly value Busiek's work and it pleases me to see that there are more. You are absolutely right about his fixing some of the problems from previous writers, especially some of the loose ends that were left hanging after the God awful "Crossing." Maybe he'll come back some day and work his magic again.
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Post by spiderwasp on May 8, 2006 19:55:17 GMT -5
I think that hot writers like Bendis, Millar, Ellis, and Brubaker are given as much rope as the want Enough to hang themselves by? Here's a question . . . Is it automatically a bad story if history is not referred to? No, but neither should history be cavalierly violated. However, a series with a long, strong legacy probably has a lot of fans for whom the legacy is a selling point. If one wishes to write a slew of stories that ignore such a legacy, it may make more sense to write for a new series instead. I couldn't agree more. There's a big difference between not mentioning the history and totally rewriting it. If you want to rewrite history, that's what Ultimates is for. I'm really not a stickler for every little detail being remembered but total shakeups just for the sake of shaking things up irritates me. That said, I'm looking forward to the shakeups coming from Civil War because I'm not crazy about where things are now (And that's just as much because I don't think the stories are very good as it because of continuity). I guess it's all a matter of perspective.
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Post by spiderwasp on May 4, 2006 21:43:19 GMT -5
[/quote]Anyway, I actually did a little study on just what you are talking about, and found that the majority of readers who like NA where 15-25 years old, and had only been reading comics an avg. of 5 years.
The majority of people who disliked NA 30 and up, and had been reading comics for 10+ years..[/quote]
This sounds pretty accurate to me. I'm 41 and have been reading comics since the early 70s. It's hard for younger readers to identify with our concerns because they don't have so many years invested in the characters. It's like when the original Avengers left in #16 and Cap's quartet took over. The change was big, but folks accepted it pretty easily since they only had only spent two years getting attached to the team. The 20 year olds today are in that boat so it's no big deal. To those of us who have been around longer, it's not the same. I'm not saying we're right and they're wrong but it's easy to see why we have our own little civil war brewing.
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Post by spiderwasp on Apr 26, 2006 20:54:07 GMT -5
Okay, things are starting, just starting to get a little better. The fact that the New Avengers have called in Ms. Marvel and Vision is a step toward remembering that "Once An Avenger, Always An Avenger." I still don't like the big splash pages. I hate paying 3 bucks for a buck and being able to read in less than a minute which sometimes feels like the case with this trend. I know that a picture speaks a 1000 words but a picture with a 10-15 words still speaks more loudly to me.
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Post by spiderwasp on Apr 12, 2008 17:01:41 GMT -5
For me, as I mentioned before, it's not about one or two particular Avengers. Thus NA didn't feel like Avengers even though it had 2-3 of the big 3. Maybe adding Vision would have helped. I think, however that you have to have a predominance of people who have already been established as members. Had the team been Cap, Ironman, Vision, Hawkeye, Wasp, Spider-man, Luke Cage, and Sentry, I would have probably even been able to accept Sentry better. I they'd then slowly phased out Hawkeye and the Wasp to bring in Wolverine and Spiderwoman, it might could have kept its Avengers feel. (Though it's still hard to imagine justifying Wolverine). Granted the first big change only had Cap to anchor it, but, as I've said before, a change after a 15 issue history isn't the same as a change after a 30 year one.
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Post by spiderwasp on Apr 4, 2008 15:46:39 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with a team not having one of the "Big 3." I prefer to have Cap or Thor on the team (I could live just fine without Ironman) but I think the Avengers have more "Big" members than just the 3. As long as the team has a few of the longtime members, I have no problem feeling like it's the Avengers. For me this includes Vision, Yellowjacket, Wasp, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Ms. Marvel, Wonderman, She-Hulk, Quicksilver, Black Panther, Hercules, and maybe a few more.
The thing to me that makes an "Avengers" team not feel like the Avengers is when the team becomes a small closed off group that forgets the basic "Once An Avenger, always an Avenger" philosophy or contains so many new members that it is hardly recognizable as the team. These were 2 of the major problems I've had from the beginning with NA. Even though Cap and Ironman were initially on the team, it was just them. They are part of the "Big 3" but it still wasn't enough. The line-up then became stagnant for what I'm sure is the longest period of time that an Avengers line-up ever went without changing. When it finally changed, it became even less like something that felt like a team. Hawkeye is there, but he's not Hawkeye so it's just not the same. Furthermore, having an Avengers team that isn't sanctioned by the government or any of the original members doesn't feel any more like a real Avengers team than the Great Lakes Avengers.
For the record, I have no problem considering the Ma team to be legit. It contains Ironman, Wasp, Ms. Marvel, Black Widow, and Wonderman. The others may be relative newcomers but the line-ups have often had new members thrown in. It is also government sanctioned and has two founding members on the roster as well as a third (Yellowjacket) who has shown support. Again, that's not to say that the team has to have founding member but it does it need their willingness to acknowledge that it is the Avengers.
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Post by spiderwasp on Mar 26, 2008 17:50:44 GMT -5
Didn't pretty much everyone die in the Korvac saga? I also seem to recall a lot of deaths at Thanos' hands in Infinity Wars or one of those Infinity series.
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Post by spiderwasp on Mar 21, 2008 14:34:28 GMT -5
Some artists work is dull or they have flaws in certain areas but at least the characters look human. The only other artist who I think was as bad as Yu was the one who drew Force Works, but I don't know his name. It doesn't matter anyway because that wasn't an actual Avengers title and it was way before disassembled..
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Post by spiderwasp on Mar 22, 2008 10:02:25 GMT -5
Oh boy. Y'know, I literally love all the artists except Kirkham, Yu and Caselli I'm glad you said that. Something about it made me feel better about my lack of finding this question easy. When I saw the two artist polls (Best and worst), I instantly posted Yu as my least favorite but couldn't quite find the answer to this one. I was actually wondering if I'm just too negative and that's why I find it easier to focus on the bad. However, what you said made something click and opened my eyes. I can't pick a favorite because I love the work of so many. I truly admire the art that's been in the books (Even when I'm not so crazy about the storytelling) so when someone bad occasionally comes along, it stands out like a sore thumb and I can't help but notice it. The good art has become my expectation so I guess that's a pretty positive outlook rather than a negative one.
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Post by spiderwasp on Mar 5, 2008 22:22:05 GMT -5
Starfoxx's great post on 1985 (Exalt to you) got me to thinking. I loved many of those same things and miss many of those teams and characters. For this thread, the question is "Who do you really miss?" This can be from any time period.
Here's my top 5:
I miss...
Alpha Flight - Omega Flight is okay but they don't seem to be getting enough focus as a team. All in all, the just can't take the place of the Alphans and neither could the short-lived team they replaced them with a few yers ago. I especially thought there was more to be explored with Northstar's coming out. It happened in a great story and then was just dropped. I'd also like to see whatever happened to some of the younger members like Persuasion and Manikin.
The Defenders - This book really fizzled toward the end but it had some good years and did a lot for characters who had previously not recieved a lot of attention like Hell-cat, Nighthawk, and Valykrie. I liked it when they were the heart of the team and the powerhouses came and went.
Pulsar/Photon/Captain Marvel - I loved this character but she has barely been seen in the last few years and keeps going through name changes to the point that it's almost impossible to know what's going on with her. She needs to return to the forefront, whether it's with the Avengers, the Initiative, or in some other book.
Power Pack- All right, I know they are around just about every month but if you've read any of the books, this is clearly a Marvel Adventures type of book, set outside of previous continuity. Every issue they meet heroes they used to know well. They even recently met Franklin Richards who used to be a member of their team. In the first of their recent series they even moved to New York and were amazed by the city. Uhm, that's the city they lived in for years. I want to see the 616 Power Pack show back up. Marvel never dealt with them during Civil War at all. Shouldn't they have had to register? Shouldn't they be in the Initiative?
Squadrine Supreme - The Utopia limited series was awesome and some of their appearances since have been as well. I particularly enjoyed them in Quasar. It was nice to see them briefly as Power Princess joined the Exiles but I want more.
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Post by spiderwasp on Feb 10, 2008 17:56:21 GMT -5
I can understand Hercules and Black Widow being viewed as second bananas, but Angel, Iceman, Ghost Rider, and Darkstar are great characters! I agree with most of what you said about the Champions but am a bit confused. Hercules and Black Widow are second bananas but not Darkstar? Good character or not, I would hardly put her above third banana.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jan 26, 2008 12:48:44 GMT -5
Regularly (Current and upcoming): Mighty Avengers, She-Hulk, Fantastic Four, Initiative, Ms. Marvel, Captain America, Thor, Incredible Herc, Black Panther, Marvel Comics Presents, Illuminati, Young Avengers, X-Men: First Class, and probably Defenders and Secret Invasion.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jan 30, 2008 23:42:17 GMT -5
I gave Namor a 2. I enjoyed his run as a member but I've only thought of him as a Fantastic Four villain. Not so much for the Avengers. Have they ever really had a major story with him as the villain?
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Post by spiderwasp on Jan 12, 2008 9:39:23 GMT -5
Not much happened in modern continuity with this Whizzer (There was more with the Squadrine Supreme version) and he did very little with the Avengers. Even if you look at his potential had he lived longer, his powers were simply redundant for a team that had Quicksilver. I've nothing against him and he was a great addition to the Invaders but I don't even really think of him as an Avenger.
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Post by spiderwasp on Dec 27, 2007 22:51:37 GMT -5
I went with a 4 based on potential and how well she's worked with other team members during her rare appearances (Plus, of course, the fact that I love the character.) She proved herself with the Defenders and if she could hold her own with that odd assortment, she certainly could with an Avengers team. I would love to see Black Widow take on more of a SHIELD laison position and finally let Patsy have her turn.
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Post by spiderwasp on Dec 19, 2007 12:15:27 GMT -5
I think others have hit the nail on the head. We're supposed to enjoy the effects her presence sometimes has but we're not really supposed to like her. However, I can't give higher than a one to an Avenger I don't like. I can just see Bendis getting Wolverine to lead a whole new team with Moondragon, USAgent, Mantis, Dr. Druid, Echo, and of course, Sentry. Man, that's a book I'd buy!
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Post by spiderwasp on Dec 19, 2007 12:24:14 GMT -5
I've just recently started to buy some of the marvel busts on e-bay when I can find them for a reasonable price. So far I have Thor, Giant-man/Wasp, She-Hulk, Hawkeye, Vision, Ms. Marvel, Spider-man, J.Jonah Jameson, Green Goblin, Dr. Octopus, Lizard, and Sandman so; Dear Santa, I want Captain America, Ironman, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Hellcat, Hercules, Black Panther, Daredevil, the Fantastic Four, Mary Jane, Dr. Doom, Ultron, Kang, and Galactus. That's not to much to ask for is it? I've been good. I even gave to charity by continuing to buy New Avengers for half the year. Doesn't penance count for something? Sincerely, Spiderwasp
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Post by spiderwasp on Dec 17, 2007 22:02:16 GMT -5
Right now it is...! And how...!!! Ahh, the white Christmas of the north. Here in North Carolina, we'll be lucky if we see snow at all this winter. Of course, on the other hand, when we do get it, it only takes half an inch to shut everything down.
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Post by spiderwasp on Dec 13, 2007 22:43:08 GMT -5
I went with 4, based mostly on his being responsible for the team getting together in the first place. That certainly makes him an important part of Avengers history. Unfortunately, he hasn't really been instrumental in any great Avengers stories since then (Acts of Vengence included.) He's an awesome villain though.
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Post by spiderwasp on Dec 15, 2007 8:07:44 GMT -5
I have never seen the big problem with either inventing new characters for the Avengers, or bringing in old favourites. Isn't that EXACTLY what Stan Lee did both to make new Avengers *and* to bring in Captain America because he was an old character Stan liked? I actually agree with you. The changing roster of the Avengers has always been a plus and the new blood has worked often. I think it just needs to be done smoothly and without harming the team (Which is where I think Bendis dropped the ball.) Even when Stan did his major shake-up in #16, the original members simply took leaves of absence and start showing back up within 10 issues. Besides the disruption was only of a book with a 16 issue run, not 400+. As far as new characters like Triathalon, Silver Claw, Mantis, Gilgamesh, etc. that just didn't work well, at least they didn't take over the book and become the center of attention for years at the expense of the established characters. I may not rank them highly but if writers didn't experiment a little, we also wouldn't have had many characters that I really liked that were suddenly introduced to the team; Black Panther, Vision, Photon (Pulsar, whatever), Ms. Marvel, etc. I'm sure some among us do indeed object to the concept in general. I don't. I just didn't like the way it was handled in one particular incident that has had unusually long-lasting effects.
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Post by spiderwasp on Dec 13, 2007 11:49:43 GMT -5
Spiderwasp: you're either forgetting or you never read Avengers Forever... It was retconned (explained...?) there that the Mantis we saw during "The Crossing" was actually... no, not a skrull...!!! A space phantom...! Hmmm. This one did read Avengers Forever but forgot that little detail. This one guesses that moves her up from a 1 to a 1.4. That still rounds down to a 1 so I guess it doesn't matter that this one can't change his vote.
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Post by spiderwasp on Dec 13, 2007 6:55:35 GMT -5
I had to debate this one out in my head a bit. Should it be a one or a two? Her involvement in the Celestial Madonna storyline was moving me toward two but then her involvement in the Crossing cancelled that out. In the end, I simply asked myself "Would I ever like to see her return to the Avengers?" The answer clarified things. One.
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Post by spiderwasp on Dec 11, 2007 12:46:51 GMT -5
Hey Bong, didn't we skip a couple of recruits - Hellcat and Moondragon? I was wondering about that too. I know they may have been skipped because neither one was granted full membership at the time (At least I don't think Moondragon was; I know Hell-cat wasn't) so I understand the logic. However, I know they both became actual Avengers later even though Hell-cat never served a real term and Moondragon's appearance were rare. It was clear by the time Patsy returned during the Perez run that she is now considered an actual Avenger. Personally, I'd still like to see them on the list.
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Post by spiderwasp on Dec 9, 2007 0:31:38 GMT -5
I had to give this one a good bit of thought but I decided on a 6. A few years ago, I would have probably gone with something like a 4 but the character has really grown on me. It's strange that I have no problem seeing the Avengers without her but it's hard to picture her without the Avengers. Even in her solo book, she so frequently ties in with Avengers that it is clear that the team has become her life. That bonding actually moves her up for me because there are so many members who seem to only be Avengers in passing but not with all their heart. I also think, handled properly, she could be the Marvel equivilant of Wonder Woman. She's not there yet, but I can see it happening. By the way, Bored Yesterday, you said you were going with a 6 but when I just entered mine, it was the first one. You might want to try that again.
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Post by spiderwasp on Dec 14, 2007 15:48:04 GMT -5
I've never seen an explanation concerning Dr. Spectrum's two prisms. There are actually a lot of unanswered questions about the Squadrine. We see them rarely, so when we do, a great deal of time always seems to have passed. I, for one, would love to see a lost tales of the Squadrine Supreme series. Since this is actually a DC thread, I loved the line in the Avengers/JLA crossover when Hawkeye called the JLA something to the effect of "A bunch of of Squadrine Supreme wantabes." Priceless.
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Post by spiderwasp on Dec 14, 2007 7:26:05 GMT -5
It's been many years since I've regularly read any DC, but my fondest memories are of Green Lantern. I've always liked Quasar and Dr. Spectrum too and I think that's because I connect them with those fond memories.
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Post by spiderwasp on Dec 6, 2007 21:15:41 GMT -5
Because I tend to enjoy personality even more than power, I'm going with a 6. Beast brought an interesting dynamic to the team. I agree with the majority that the new cat-beast is horrible. I look at him and can't even focus on the dialogue because I keep thinking "Where's Hank?" Oddly I never had that problem when he initially became hairy. It's just something that's creepy about this new form.
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Post by spiderwasp on Dec 4, 2007 20:23:46 GMT -5
I was thinking of people like Starfox, Dr. Druid, Gilgamesh, Deathcry, D-Man, Silverclaw... Ehi! Starfox is fun! Agreed. I think the rest of Tana's list is on the money but I actually like Eros.
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Post by spiderwasp on Nov 25, 2007 18:35:22 GMT -5
I gave her a 3. For one thing, she's never been a particularly favorite character of mine, though I think she does work okay alongside characters like Daredevil and is more interesting than usual in the current Captain America run alongside characters such as Falcon and Winter Soldier. As an Avenger, though, I've never seen what she really brings to the team. As a street level fighter, she's always been overshadowed by characters like Cap or Hawkeye and as far as her strategic leadership, she's no stronger than either of them or the Wasp (Who not only shares Natasha's leadership qualities and stings but can also shrink and fly.) She needs to be kept with other characters more in her power range or she just seems superfluous.
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Post by spiderwasp on Nov 18, 2007 0:52:37 GMT -5
I gave Dane a 5. Although I wasn't wild about the actual Gatherers storyline, I didn't hate it either and I liked a lot of the other stuff surrounding that period. I particulary liked the characterizations of BK, Sersi, and Crystal and the subplots that surrounded them. I think he's a great Avenger when used in the right storyline. That's why I actually like it when some Avengers pop in for a short time rather than keeping the same line-up for, say, twenty issues. Black Knight is a great occassional Avenger.
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