|
Post by tomspasic on Dec 5, 2012 15:33:57 GMT -5
Hope this is the right bit of the forum for this... So yes, spoilers, probably.
I read the first issue and liked it. Mainly because it's not Bendis, but also because it seemed like an OK first issue. Lots of questions unanswered though. I am concerned by the 100,000,000,000,000 member roster though. If absolutely everyone and anyone is an Avenger then it really is meaningless as a term. I think the more members a team has, the less chance there is for individual members to shine. That said, I love the LSH, so maybe Hickman can make this work.
|
|
|
Post by woodside on Dec 5, 2012 22:17:11 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Marvel Boy on Dec 6, 2012 0:17:37 GMT -5
Hm, some interesting choices for the 'Not Appearing/Not Members' List. No Vision Sentry - Isn't he dead ever since Siege? No Daredevil Wonder Man - though he is set to appear in Uncanny Avengers Quicksilver- was he no longer a teacher at Avengers Academy? Iron Fist - though I'd rather see more of Danny than Luke. Who is Prince of Orphans? Psylocke - good, I'd rather see her on an X-Force team than an Avenger Moon Knight - His last title by Bendis & Maleev didn't last long and now he isn't an Avenger. Spector's luck stinks. No Mockingbird, Sersi or Crystal despite saying elsewhere about expanding the female membership. Still, for the first time since '91-'92, I now have a mail subscription to the Avengers. Eagerly awaiting this first issue.
|
|
|
Post by tomspasic on Dec 6, 2012 10:08:43 GMT -5
@marvel Boy, it kind of bugs me that they are still recruiting a lot of new members when there are plenty of old Avengers not getting used anywhere. No Pym, Wasp, Black Knight, Triathlon, Rage, Deathcry, Silverclaw, Hercules, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Black Panther, Quasar, Moondragon, Starfox, Sersi, Gilgamesh, Tigra, Hellcat, Mantis, Firebird, D-Man, Stingray, Living Lightning etc etc. They aren't even using half the new members Bendis bought in like Iron Fist, or Storm. I'll give this a fair chance, but 9 years after the big "Break With Past Tradition" of the Bendis era, why do we still need to constantly recruit new members? I did actually like this issue, in case my griping clouds that fact. I don't think that anyone has pointed out the parallels to "World Trust", the last time the Avengers proper went Big. Not that Hickman is ripping off that storyline, but it feels like the Avengers is becoming the "A" team of the marvel universe again. I've missed that.
|
|
comaboy
Great Lakes Avenger
Posts: 34
|
Post by comaboy on Dec 6, 2012 12:17:03 GMT -5
After reading the CBR article I'm left wondering why I should even read Avengers. It sounds like Hickman is ruling out a ton of characters and plot ideas that usually draw me to an Avengers title right off the bat.
|
|
|
Post by spiderwasp on Dec 6, 2012 23:00:52 GMT -5
No Pym, Wasp, Black Knight, Triathlon, Rage, Deathcry, Silverclaw, Hercules, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Black Panther, Quasar, Moondragon, Starfox, Sersi, Gilgamesh, Tigra, Hellcat, Mantis, Firebird, D-Man, Stingray, Living Lightning etc etc. They aren't even using half the new members Bendis bought in like Iron Fist, or Storm. . Many of these characters were not on the "No" list. Hickman even said he was not releasing actual line-ups and that they would be changing so many may be showing up. Here's the list he gave, posted straight from the article: On the "No List" for the books are the likes of Vision, the Sentry, Daredevil, Wonder Man, Captain Britain, Quicksilver, Pete Wisdom, Blue Marvel, Red She-Hulk, Ghost Rider, Bucky Barnes, Iron Fist, Prince of Orphans, Damion Hellstrom, Psylocke, Moon Knight, Magma, Richard Rider, any of the staff from Horizon Labs or the Agents of Atlas. Hickman also noted Mockingbird, Sersi, Sharon Carter, Crystal and Firebird would not be appearing in his Avengers-related books in "any significant way." While I would love to see Vision, Wonderman, and Quicksilver since they are three of my favorites, the reality is that no line-up since the very early days have included all the characters I've wanted to see and it just wouldn't be practical to try. Most of these other characters, I'm fine with not seeing in an Avengers book for a while. A fantastic line-up or two could be formed easily without any of these characters. Indeed, my concerns are not so much with the characters that are not included as with the ones that are. I just don't see any need to focus on new members when there is such an abundance. That said, I must confess to hyposcrisy. I'm excited by the idea of seeing Hyperion again and the hint that more of my beloved but long ignored Squadron Supreme may be show up is even better. I'd love to see them used well somewhere even though I would prefer to see them in their own book again. Of course, I also realize the market for that book would probably not be big enough. I guess what it boils down to is that it's very easy to be upset about something, such as adding new characters, until the characters are someone you want to see. Again, I have my concerns, but I'm staying optimistic at this point. I haven't bought the first issue yet but will tomorrow.
|
|
|
Post by spiderwasp on Dec 7, 2012 17:51:50 GMT -5
Okay, I kept my mind open. I really did. I optimistically and eagerly went to the CBS to buy Avengers #1 and then I read it.
I don't know what the general opinion is going to be and some of you may be very impressed. For me, I have to be honest - it was awful. There was not one line, one panel, one action that I liked. Most if it I didn't even understand. There were characters I've never seen before talking about things I've never heard about but in a way that made it clear that I should have previous knowledge. The grouping that was assembled was obviously put together so that we could have one big (Badly drawn) panel featuring the line-up from the movie but it might as well have been them because anyone would have worked the same. The dialogue and actions were so generic that any team of Avengers could have been filled in their places with the exception of Cap. I hate to say this but I've actually read a lot of Bendis issues that were better. I am sorely disappointed.
|
|
|
Post by tomspasic on Dec 8, 2012 6:31:27 GMT -5
I'm sorry that you didn't like it. Apologies for the long attempt to excuse the book which follows. I do understand the feeling of having perhaps gotten a copy missing a page or two, and those pages containing info that would make more sense of it all. I got that feeling myself, but trust Hickman to fill in the gaps. I think that Hickman plays a long game, which is slightly different from simple decompression, and that long game means that a first issue can seem underwhelming and confusing, as this issue sort of was. He was setting up a tone, an elegiac one, with a feeling of foreshadowed....something. The narrative voice is clearly speaking of events in their past, which they know but we do not yet. Bendis tried a similar trick several times and failed much more badly than this (imo), because he put his "epilogue dialogues" right at the climax of long running stories, meaning the reader knew much of the outcome of climactic battles and events from the first page on. Hickman uses the device more subtly, to create a feeling of impending change and possible loss (though it being comics any "loss" is likely to be temporary). After all, we do not at this point even know who the "narrator" is, other than that they are an Avenger. So no spoilerage from knowing who survives. Yes the main group of villains was introduced without origins, biography or any information beyond what they said, and it was hard to discern their ultimate motives, or powers. And that lack of knowledge of them does explain why the Movie Avengers did not fare well. But yes, it's hard as a reader to get a bunch of "people" show up and be told/shown virtually nothing of who/why/where/when/how. Again, I'm trusting Hickman to remedy this. The Avengers imagined that Hulk, Thor and Iron Man would be power enough for any foe, backed up by the tactical skills of Cap, Hawkeye and Black Widow. Because they too knew nothing about the enemy. I think that you are at least partly wrong in your assertion that "The dialogue and actions were so generic that any team of Avengers could have been filled in their places with the exception of Cap." Nobody else except Tony could have had his spoken parts, though obviously other characters in the book with less dialogue might have been interchangeable with other Avengers. Show me almost any issue of the Avengers and I can show you characters for whom that is true, it's the nature of an ensemble book that in any given issue not everyone will always get very character specific roles and dialogue. So for the dialogue you are partly right, we do not get 19 pages of dinner table banter where so-called "character moments" waste time and space, and the Avengers yet again do nothing. Personally, I'm sick of that. I never want to read another "the baby's poo smells bad" "joke" again. Ever.
But as to their actions? I think there you are mostly wrong. Who else but Hawkeye could make the shot that takes out the third "origin bomb" on it's way to earth? Who else but Hulk would succumb to that particular hypnotic goading or be strong enough to deck Thor? Who else but Thor would survive an unexpected punch from an angered Hulk? The Widow used her Widow's bite, not guns, because she is the Black Widow, not Lady Punisher. And that makes her more in character than she has been for the last 8 years, where any gun toting bimbo could have worn the costume. So from my point of view I thought that the actions were pretty non-generic. Again, many Avengers issues are prone to "it could have been any Avenger". That is sort of the point of the team. That regardless of the roster and characters and powers, that they get the job done.
I cannot argue you into liking what you did not like, and I cannot claim that the book was perfect or flawless. It's a somewhat confusing, often portentious, set-up issue that has people doing what is needed to get to a new team. That is clumsy, but I'm hoping once we have the new team in place we get some storytelling. That is traditionally how it goes. New writer comes in, has contrived reasons to boot out or bring in characters, then away we go with a new status quo.
If you don't enjoy this kind of long-term epic, slow-build, high-concept story, then this title probably will be unsuitable for you (and sometimes I just want an issue of the Avengers with a classic team interacting and fighting some clearly presented menace myself). Over in Avengers Assemble is a much more traditional feel and story telling structure which I greatly enjoyed (not the Bendis issues, but the DeConnick ones).
For my part, I'm basking in a writer with a vocabulary of more than 150 words, who is unlikely to have Count Nefaria ever say the words "big boy table", who actually knows what the Black Widow uses in combat, who is not simply pushing Luke "where's my baby!" Cage and Jessica Jones, who has a plan that is not a dull ten year old's fan-fic writ large. I'm in this for the foreseeable future. I hope amongst the plethora of Avengers books that you can find at least one written by somebody doing stuff you enjoy more than this issue, because it would be awful to be stuck with another writer you dislike. I can sympathize, and really sincerely hope that at least one of the books is enjoyable for you. At least there is a little bit of choice between Hickman, Remender and Deconnick.
|
|
|
Post by spiderwasp on Dec 9, 2012 11:28:50 GMT -5
I get what you're saying Tom, and I do plan to stick around for a few issues to see if it starts making sense - mostly because of my desperate need to love the Avengers again. However, I do admit to being old-fashioned. I want to enjoy each issue for its own merit as well as for its part in an overall picture. I don't feel that I should have to suffer through several issues without enjoyment while telling myself that eventually this will pay off. It's kind of like exercising. The lifting, crunching, etc. is painful and unpleasant but you do it because you keep telling yourself the benefits will be worth it. I just can't wrap my mind around treating comics the same way.
I've had the same issues with tv, by the way. I stopped watching Lost in the third season because I wasn't enjoying it even though the producers criticized the audience and said that those that stuck with it would be rewarded later. Good, long-term stories can be told in a way that each issue is still worth reading on its own. Look at the Korvac Saga, Kree Skrull War, or the original Dark Phoenix Saga. These stories were very long-range and took a long time to develop but I don't feel bored or lost along the way to the big ending.
On a positive note - Remenders title, though not perfect, was far better. Hopefully Deconnick's will be too. I just wish they could have given something to Gage. Ah, he could have restored the Avengers to glory.
|
|
|
Post by tomspasic on Dec 9, 2012 12:06:06 GMT -5
I get what you're saying Tom, and I do plan to stick around for a few issues to see if it starts making sense - mostly because of my desperate need to love the Avengers again. However, I do admit to being old-fashioned. I want to enjoy each issue for its own merit as well as for its part in an overall picture. I don't feel that I should have to suffer through several issues without enjoyment while telling myself that eventually this will pay off. It's kind of like exercising. The lifting, crunching, etc. is painful and unpleasant but you do it because you keep telling yourself the benefits will be worth it. I just can't wrap my mind around treating comics the same way. I've had the same issues with tv, by the way. I stopped watching Lost in the third season because I wasn't enjoying it even though the producers criticized the audience and said that those that stuck with it would be rewarded later. Good, long-term stories can be told in a way that each issue is still worth reading on its own. Look at the Korvac Saga, Kree Skrull War, or the original Dark Phoenix Saga. These stories were very long-range and took a long time to develop but I don't feel bored or lost along the way to the big ending. On a positive note - Remenders title, though not perfect, was far better. Hopefully Deconnick's will be too. I just wish they could have given something to Gage. Ah, he could have restored the Avengers to glory. Absolutely agree, about the need for each issue to stand on it's own, and for the reader to not have to rely on deferred gratification as long as a year down the line. And I think that it's a valid complaint about Hickman's work that it often does stretch out over a loooong time. In his defense I can only say that he does at least seem to have a well planned long-term approach. And I have seen him throw in a few more or less "done-in-one" type issues too. Though I admit it can be awfully frustrating to hear "of course what you just paid $3.99 for isn't entertaining, but spend $40 more and it will be" over and over. I also heartily agree that Gage would have been great. It's not like I dislike any of the current Avengers writers, I've enjoyed various stuff by all 3. But Gage's work I really really liked on Avengers Academy, so he would be my personal choice. I'd also like to give Slott another shot with perhaps some different artists, or at least a more stable rotation of artists than he got on Mighty Avengers. I think it would also help if he were not overshadowed by the Rule Of Bendis on the Avengers. But Slott seems happy on Spidey, so I'll make do with what I have, which is 4 Avengers books not written by Bendis, (even if one is the stupid Illuminati). Even if I don't like these writers at all, I doubt they will linger for 8 years...
|
|
|
Post by spiderwasp on Dec 10, 2012 21:17:13 GMT -5
Even if I don't like these writers at all, I doubt they will linger for 8 years... Very true. I even tolerated Bendis for several years because of my love for the characters. That's been the the positive thing through all of the bad periods of the past (And they definately existed.) They were all temporary and relatively short lived. Despite my disappointment, having Bendis gone still leaves me with a sense of hope that has been missing for a long time.
|
|
comaboy
Great Lakes Avenger
Posts: 34
|
Post by comaboy on Dec 11, 2012 12:14:34 GMT -5
One of the biggest problems I had with Mighty Avengers, which carries over to this title, is the slow build pace of stories. It is indeed frustrating to go month to month reading a story line that actually comes across far better as a TPB months later.
Having said that, I'm willing to cut Hickman slack on the wholly new villains as I like the air of mystery.
|
|
|
Post by tomspasic on Dec 20, 2012 7:54:33 GMT -5
Sooo.. anybody had a chance to read #2 yet?
Spoilerage ahoy:
I enjoyed reading it, but less than the first issue. Some things bugged me. First the waste of pages. Now in addition to the (in my opinion) superfluous "previously" page, (which now simply reprints a page from the previous issue, they are actually too lazy to write a summary or synopsis!), we get a whole page just showing the names and symbols of those in the comic, and a whole page just for the title and credits. So it's not till page 4 that the comic actually begins. Now, I was willing to overlook this nonsense in the first issue, because if "writing for trade/omnibus" you might want some nice big title/credits in the first issue. But in every issue? Not so much.
I'm also underwhelmed by the cover, which was too busy, featured a scene not actually in the comic, and had some frankly rather poor figure drawing where the artist appears to be attempting dramatic foreshortening or possibly a fish-eye-lense effect, but it ends up with characters with limbs of varying lengths.
The story itself reads well enough, but is all exposition and backstory. We literally get no further than the end of #1, save only that the sole quinjet the Avengers own now gets repaired by the "new" Avengers. We get some of the villains' backstory (basically a duplication of Jack Kirby's Celestials, they go from planet to planet judging life and either wiping it out or evolving it). Their story, if "true" also contradicts quite a lot of existing Marvel universe continuity. But hey, these days, "continuity" is a derogatory term anyway, so wateva.
Then interspersed with this we see how the new bunch of Avengers are recruited, which is just like every other time we've seen this; Cap asks, they say "yes". There are some jokey panels where what is offered as an incentive to join is tailored to each character, Wolverine is told there is beer, Spidey that there is money. Luke Cage and Doctor Strange are mentioned as turning the Avengers down. No mention of founding Avengers Giant Man or the Wasp. Or of Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Hercules, Black Panther etc etc etc. Or any of the 20 or so other Avengers ignored for the last decade by Bendis. But again, whilst it's apparently fine for Wolverine and Spidey to be in every Avengers comic for a decade, it's "boring" to want actual Avengers in an Avengers comic.
There is a page where the new Avengers are shown repairing The Only Quinjet, (or possibly fitting out another one for the journey to Mars), despite the fact that none of these characters has any scientific training or technical aptitude. Oh, wait, Spidey does. I take it all back. This panel sort of reminds me of the scene in Avengers JLA #4 where both teams retrofit an Atlantean cruiser. In that book it's a cool scene where we see the technical genius of Stark, Pym, Palmer etc etc, we see the two teams bond as a unit prior to combat, and several quiet little character spots of them just talking. Busiek and Perez devote six pages to the sequence and it works well. Hickman and Opena give it two thirds of a page with a caption at the bottom reading "Individuals aligned perfectly to serve a greater purpose", which is rather clumsy and compressed, in a book that is otherwise rather decompressed. Later we are told that the team has been together for less than 6 hours, which makes the ship repair more impressive or stupid, depending on your outlook. So maybe there was no time for idle chitchat.
I thought that the writing itself is somewhat flawed. Firstly there is the problem of narration. In the first issue Hickman has our narrator serve as the caption boxes, setting mood and tone, filling in details too. I have no problems with that. The second issue opens with an old-school Omniescent Authorial Caption Box reading "Mars. Now", and is peppered with these throughout, as the narrative switches times and planets quite a bit. The trouble with this is the use is not consistent. So when the bit on "Mars. Now" ends we get a panel of earth, followed by a sequence in the past. But there is no caption to tell us we are on "Earth", or where on earth we are, just "Then.". We can infer that we are looking at Avengers Tower in New York on Earth, but while on "Mars. Now." we got a flashback to several other parts of the galaxy/universe which was Ex Nihilos origin/exposition, so you might think it would help to be specific. Next page is "Now." set in the Tower again, but we don't apparently need to be told this. The next 4 pages are clearly flashbacks, as they show the new Avengers being recruited, but we are not told that it is "Then, but a bit later.", let alone what parts of what planet we are on. The next page we are back to "Earth.Now." and 5 "origin bombs" land, and we get told their locations, including population. Then it's back to "Mars", though it's left to the reader to deduce it's "now." Then it's back to "EARTH. Avengers Tower." And I, being clever, can work out that it's now, even though I'm not told this.
So there are a few inconsistencies with the narrative captions showing time and place, so what? I never really got confused about where and when I was, so what's my problem? Well, first, if you are going to do something, be consistent. Don't drop an un-announced 4 page flashback sequence which jumps around the globe into a comic so strenuously peppered with "THEN." and "NOW." captions. It's sloppy, and lazy. Either do it right or don't do it. My problem is also that interspersed with the Omniescent "THEN/NOW/EARTH/MARS" Captions we also still have our Mystery Avenger Narrator from last issue. And he is narrating over bits like Bobby and Sam's conversations on a beach in Brazil (maybe?). And he's narrating some bits in the NOW, and some bits in the THEN. And he's filling us in on some of their motivations, and you are sort of wondering, how does Mystery Avenger Narrator (hereinafter referred to as MAN) know all this? How does he know exactly what was said, worn, drunk in each scene. Only Cap and Tony are shown in the Recruitment Montage scenes, and MAN definitely isn't either of them. I get that the Testament style of MAN works to give a better epic feel than a cold Omniescent Authorial Caption, but having both just confuses me. Are we being told this tale in flashback by MAN, or are we seeing it unfold in real time whilst Omniescent Authorial Caption (OAC) fills in the gaps for us?
I'm probably carping a bit too much. I did enjoy reading it, despite the War And Peace length list of complaints above. It is light years ahead of you-know-who in terms of scope, style, execution and, well, everything. I probably only felt dissatisfied at the end because I was enjoying reading it, and wanted more. As an individual issue I could probably only give it 6/10, as a chapter in an on-going trade/omnibus it probably ranks as an 8/10.
|
|
|
Post by Marvel Boy on Dec 20, 2012 23:55:55 GMT -5
Argh, mail subscription runs about a week behind the release date, so I should get #1 this week hopefully with #2 following soon given it was released yesterday.
As for lack of 'proper' members, Wasp and Scarlet Witch are probably set within Uncanny Avengers. Unsure about Quicksilver's status, if he's appearing in any of the X-books. Didn't Quasar die during one of the Annihilation events?
I sure miss Black Knight though........
|
|
|
Post by tomspasic on Dec 21, 2012 5:52:49 GMT -5
Yes, it's true that amongst all the various teams are appearing many "classic" Avengers members. I just find it odd that in the face of a world-destroying threat they go to people they've never worked with without even bothering to try more of the classic membership. Even a simple panel of a monitor with the names on followed by "unavailable" would have been a nice nod to traditional pre-Bendis Avengers. It isn't a thing which ruins the book for me, like I said, there are probably enough Classic Avengers spread over the 27 different Avengers books. I suppose it just galls me that Cage gets a line explaining his absence while a whole tranche of Avengers are not even considered worthy. Meh. I'm still enjoying it for now, whatever the lineup.
|
|
|
Post by Marvel Boy on Dec 28, 2012 0:50:12 GMT -5
Thoughts on #1 (a tad late, I know, but that's the postal system for you):
I can understand everyone's feelings about where are the classic Avengers in these line-ups or their more noticeable absences, but going on what I know of the current MU, I can certainly see the point(s) behind Tony's talk with Cap, about having to expand the team where and when needed to handle these greater threats. Also seem to be hints towards more specific line-ups to handle specific threats, so there may not even be a line-up in the classic sense (other than the core members presented here perhaps).
I see this as an expansion of Bendis' Initiative efforts. I may not agree completely with the idea that every single hero in the MU is worthy of membership, but here, the expansion seems more natural rather than a consequence of some mandated law.
Hickman is definitely planning big, judging by those foreshadowing scenes. Hyperion (rescued by AIM?), the Imperial Guard, the Light(?) and an interstellar war at least. From what I consistently hear about his FF run, Hickman will deliver on these long-term plots.
As for the actual fight, Ex Nihlio sounds familiar but this is the first time I've read of him. The fight was rather typical, Tony being outsmarted (at first), Hawkeye and Widow getting in some good shots but then falling, Hulk being manipulated into fighting Thor, and Cap never giving up. This fight would seem to re-enforce the book's goal of bigger Avengers squads as Cap needs to summon replacements. It wasn't bad just straight-forward.
Opena's art was decent but his Hulk looked rather...skinny to me. This is my first exposure to his art and I liked it overall.
Of course, the new symbol chart for the team(s) screams LSH to me, with all their little symbol representations. It's cool just something new to get used to, especially after I become more familiar with whose symbols are whose.
Overall, I liked this issue, Hickman is building a sense of grandness and wonder here. This may not be our classic Avengers of yore, but I'm excited to see where this is going.
|
|
|
Post by tomspasic on Dec 29, 2012 7:24:45 GMT -5
I'm in complete agreement with you about that sense of grandness and wonder, and how, despite it not being a complete return to Classic Avengers, I'm still optimistic and excited to see where it goes. For the first time in 8 years I'm eager to read the next issue of Avengers. I had almost forgotten what that feels like.
|
|
|
Post by spiderwasp on Dec 29, 2012 13:41:25 GMT -5
I still stand by my evaluation of issue 1 but 2 was an improvement. I still can't say I'm overwhelmed but it was much much better.
|
|
|
Post by Marvel Boy on Jan 4, 2013 12:36:26 GMT -5
Issue #2 -
Decent issue overall, but like tom mentioned before, not much story progression, just flashbacks.
I see what you mean about the beginning. A 'Previous' page that is only a reprint from the first issue. They need to jazz it up some, like over in DD, their synopsis page looks the front page of the Daily Bugle, with the story bits as headlines. Maybe lift a page from the LSH, who had Omni-Com updates, maybe have some sort of J.A.R.V.I.S. update or recap.
The symbols page, yeah, I still like it, like it even better that they listed the names so I can better match the name to the symbol.
The villains' backstory, well, there's always an 'older' race, right ? Interesting but I felt something lacking about Ex Nihlio and Abyss' birth. Adelph released them because he felt he had finally found a species worth evolving. Only one panel gave any indication that they did so and to me, that species looked like the Sh'iar.
The recruitment scenes were funny and enlightening. Some new members, but as Tony and Steve mentioned, some classic members mixed in to maintain a strong foundation to the core team.
Wolverine - funny, but an old joke by now.
Spidey- have to wonder now, which Spidey did they recruit?
Falcon - made sense
Sunspot and Cannonball - funny and spot-on. Leave behind feared and hated for loved and adored. Rock on Bobby.
Manifold - never heard of him till now. Kinda reminded me of Gateway, I think his name was, the mutant teleporter the X-Men used while they were in Australia.
Spider-Woman and Capt. Marvel - probably liked this scene the best, no gimmicks, no hinting around, just tell us what we want to hear, and Carol's response to Cap's direct proposal got a smile out of me.
But my man Shang-Chi is finally an Avenger, about time. And due for some kind of upgrade from Tony. Can't wait to see what that is.
Interesting that they tipped their hand early by showing their recruiting (or going to) of Capt. Universe, Hyperion, and Smasher. Foreshadowing in some weird way. How they recruit an entity like Universe will be fun to see.
A lot of exposition and flashback, but still liking so far. The epic feel is still present, Cap's little speech at the end kinda gave me goosebumps as I read it. Here's to hoping for an epic fight next issue.
|
|
|
Post by starfoxxx on Jan 13, 2013 14:29:11 GMT -5
I have FINALLY jumped into my big(ish) stack of new comics, and read the first two issues of Hickman's AVENGERS, UNCANNY AVENGERS, and AVENGERS ARENA. I liked them all, so far the first two issues of each series has my interest piqued.
AVENGERS first issue gave me the same thrill of reading an epic type tale that I haven't had since I read OLD MAN LOGAN and the first ULTIMATES series (yes, I liked Ultimates, and I LOVE that first cartoon movie). And seeing Cannonball and Sunspot FINALLY get a shot---well, I feel like I grew up with those New Mutant characters (I'm 38), so I love the idea.
UNCANNY AVENGERS is also good, and I admit I was suspicious of this obvious "gimmick" of using both franchises popularity for sales, but the first two issues were really interesting.
AND I also was wary of Avengers Arena being a gimmick book, but I really have no vested interest or love for the participants, so I don't mind seeing them killed off. Insensitive of me, yes, but it's the truth. I do like Hazmat and Mettle (still PO'd AV ACADEMY was cancelled), but I can't wait to see Reptyl's demise. Again, my honest opinion, sorry.
And I picked up NEW AVENGERS #1, but it was just okay for me. Nice art, but I'm not big on the Illuminati concept.
And I won't miss the SECRET AVENGERS, which is more like a quirky 90s era Doom Patrol comic than a proper Avengers book, IMO. And crappy art (although the legion of Dead Avengers is always cool to see, right?).
Pretty clever of Marvel to offer so many titles for me to have to buy, but the jokes on them, cuz I'm liking their product (or is the joke on me? oh well, we BOTH win).
All in all, it's great to FINALLY get excited about the Avengers comic books again, after years. And the inclusion of new and old villains, it's like the good old days. Sure, it makes no sense how Cap and Thor and Tony can be in so many titles with so many world-threatening plots---but it's frickin' comic books-- suspend some disbelief and have FUN! I just hope the titles are allowed to grow stories that are free from the stranglehold of the dreaded "CROSSOVER MEGA EVENT"!
oh and it's nice not to have to mention how sucky Bendis is anymore (LAST TIME I mention him, I swear!)
starfoxxx
|
|
|
Post by tomspasic on Jan 13, 2013 19:16:49 GMT -5
oh and it's nice not to have to mention how sucky Bendis is anymore (LAST TIME I mention him, I swear!) starfoxxx Well, to be pessimistic for a moment, we still have Bendis penned Ultron War to get through before he becomes just a tale to scare children with... Glad to hear another Avengers fan is enjoying the new era.
|
|
|
Post by tomspasic on Jan 30, 2013 18:29:34 GMT -5
So, two more issues have now come out, #3 and #4. I have to say I'm still liking it a lot. I can see how it might seem a tad portentous (in the too serious and trying to be important sense) and possibly decompressed for some people's taste. But the heady combination of high concept and Big Picture writing continues to have me re-reading each issue because I enjoy it so much the first time round. It is not a Perfect book. There are some bum notes, for example, in #4 an Avengers team flies to the savage land to investigate an alien contagion of sorts. Coming out of the quinjet Black Widow says "Don't touch anything until we do a sweep." Spider-Woman replies "Yeah. That's not going to be a problem." Then in the VERY NEXT PANEL is touching a plant! And the Widow is right next to her watching this and says nothing. It reads as if the artist and writer are at cross purposes. Not a massive thing to complain about, and it certainly doesn't ruin the book, but seems to be yet another example of editors not bothering to edit. The book continues to have a reasonably good range, with some humour amongst all the seriousness. It also has some continuity, #4 hints at connections to the New Avengers storylines in Hyperion's origin.
Overall, the feel I'm getting after 4 issues is that finally we have Marvel giving us a Big Avengers, akin to the Morrison run on JLA. One hesitates to bandy about words like "epic" or "awesome" just yet, but this is shaping up to be good, very good. Not since Busiek/Perez have I looked forward to new Avengers comics with such relish...
|
|
|
Post by Marvel Boy on Feb 5, 2013 23:38:35 GMT -5
Ok, time for #3 (#4 should show via the mail this week hopefully) Good ending for this first story and already the seeds for Hickman's ongoing plot are being laid out. Capt. Universe saves the day by shifting the focus of Ex Nihlio's goals. From what I gather, Hickman plans to delve deeper into the origins and purpose of Capt. Universe. The only other instance I've read of the character was back when it possessed Spider-Man and he fought against the Tri-Sentinel. This is apparently a brand-new host seeing as how the girl was confused upon arriving on Mars. This brand-new Hyperion looks about as powerful as the previous. Again, more insight into this new member is forthcoming (perhaps in #4-5) The new Smasher debuts. I've always liked the Imperial Guard but I'm at a little of a loss to understand why this new Smasher is on Earth. Hickman is sure to provide clues. Hickman is starting to build up the epic granduer, the ominous tones at issue's end, the scope of what may be uncovered via their new members, not the least of course that they basically gave Ex Nihlio the okay to terraform Mars as he sees fit. What will come of that I wonder? Loved Thor's line of "Well argued. You will be spared at the time of reckoning"So very good issue, still enjoying it, but like you mentioned, may have to read these issues over as Hickman may be going over my head a bit with all the cosmic stuff......but in a good way.
|
|
|
Post by tomspasic on Feb 7, 2013 8:41:01 GMT -5
The pace of release sort of makes up for any complaints I have about decompressed, long term storytelling. Now #5 is out, and we have an origin for the new Smasher. I feel the art in this issue (#5) is patchy, with some really horrible panels and pages that just look rushed. Which, given that an issue comes out every half hour, is perhaps understandable. It didn't spoil the issue for me but it wasn't until my third reading that I could see that in the panel where the Avengers arrive to help Smasher in a fight, Cap and Wolverine were not grimacing horribly, but wearing some sort of rebreather. These appeared and disappeared on various characters throughout the rest of the issue without any explanations or reasons given. Again, I put it down to a breathtakingly fast production schedule, so it sort of gets a pass from me. But I'm enjoying these books enough to not want these small imperfections to be noticeable, even though the enjoyment always outweighs any grumbles..
Even though these are not shooting to the top of my "favourite avengers issues ever" list quite yet, I retain a really good feeling. For me, Hickman is delivering the goods. I'm not coming away from issues feeling short-changed, frustrated or apathetic. I'm coming away thinking, "I might go back and re-read that in an hour or so." Which is always a good sign in my book. I think that it probably helps the writer to have two books on the go at once, which if not directly tied into one another at least have continuity and references to one another. Kudos to Hickman and Marvel for that. No continuity or references to Uncanny, Assemble, Young, or Arena though, so I'm taking away somebody's kudos for that. All in all we have reached a period in Avengers history which seems comparatively deep and dense with ideas and stories, most of which I expect to see played out to my satisfaction. Some feel Hickman is light on human interaction and emotion, and too heavy on the Big Ideas and Weird Concepts. I tend to see the human stuff as being there if you look. Hyperion's care for the newly born "zebra babies" in #4, Smasher's relationship with her father and grandfather in #5, these are a more subtle and nuanced kind of human interaction and emotion than the sitcom-like dinner table scenes and melodramatic "wheres my baby!!!?!!!" plotlines repeated ad nauseum in the last few years. Again there is a density to these issues which mean if you are accustomed to reading a comic in 3 minutes you will come away having missed the small two or three panel scenes and the weight and information which they can carry. I'm trying hard not to simply "bendis bash" here, but it seems to me that Hickman managed to tell us as much about both Hyperion and Smasher's family backgrounds in two issues as Bendis did with Cage and Jones in ten years of constant spotlight time.
One last repeated complaint. Between the "recap" page, the "roster" page and the "credits/title" page, we are losing 3 pages per issue, sometimes more. Now we are up to #5, in total that makes 15 pages, ie almost an entire comic, gone missing. Now, I'm still happy with what I'm reading, but still, I wish that they would cut this stuff out.
|
|
|
Post by wundagoreborn on Feb 7, 2013 15:56:56 GMT -5
The pace of release sort of makes up for any complaints I have about decompressed, long term storytelling. Now #5 is out, and we have an origin for the new Smasher. I feel the art in this issue (#5) is patchy, with some really horrible panels and pages that just look rushed. Which, given that an issue comes out every half hour, is perhaps understandable. I don't know if it is a common feeling, but double-time schedules are a barrier to me. I don't want to start on titles that I worry about keeping up with. Maybe I'll change my mind as I continue to hear good knews like this. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by candrawz1 on Feb 8, 2013 15:57:30 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by candrawz1 on Feb 8, 2013 16:03:44 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Shiryu on Feb 8, 2013 17:17:23 GMT -5
That's some clever spamming, but spamming nevertheless, mate. This kind of posts can only go in the merchandising section of the boards (sub-board of Movies/Animated), otherwise I'll have to close down your account. Much better to enjoy the forum and have a friendly chat with everyone, isn't it?
|
|
|
Post by Marvel Boy on Feb 8, 2013 23:32:03 GMT -5
About #4, a few questions:
When did A.I.M. get an island?? Are we talking something like a legitimate gov't or do they simply own it?
Liked the Hyperion insights but where was their Earth's destruction detailed? Like you said tom, is this tied into the events over in New Avengers?
Liked this issue, Kubert's art was decent. Didn't notice this till I saw a post about it on another board. Here in #4, this issue ends with a someone being shown frozen in ice. Just like in another classic #4 where someone in ice is thawed out. Nice touch.
|
|
|
Post by tomspasic on Feb 9, 2013 4:05:22 GMT -5
About #4, a few questions: When did A.I.M. get an island?? Are we talking something like a legitimate gov't or do they simply own it? Liked the Hyperion insights but where was their Earth's destruction detailed? Like you said tom, is this tied into the events over in New Avengers? Liked this issue, Kubert's art was decent. Didn't notice this till I saw a post about it on another board. Here in #4, this issue ends with a someone being shown frozen in ice. Just like in another classic #4 where someone in ice is thawed out. Nice touch. RE: Aim Island: It was in Hickman's own Fantastic Four stories, I believe (around #610). AIM island got recognized officially as a sovereign nation, possibly by the UN, I don't exactly recall. It's "legit" in the same way Doom is "legit" in Latveria. RE: Hyperion's world: I don't think that it's been shown before anywhere. It certainly seems to be hinting at a tie-in to the current New Avengers story, to me. I could easily be wrong, though. There has been one definite tie in already, in Avengers #1 Cap wakes up from a dream/nightmare/memory of the Illuminati staring at him. This scene appears at the end of New Avengers #3, so the events of the current NA arc precede Avengers (unless it was a precognitive vision of some sort....) RE: the figure in ice: I hadn't noticed the #4/"ice" connection, and am not sure it's a deliberate Easter Egg/Tribute/reference, but it could be...
|
|