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Post by dlw66 on May 13, 2009 15:58:41 GMT -5
Who do you think met a meaningful ending back in the day -- but over time, their death was reversed. Did that reversal sour you on the original story, sour you on the creators/editors who perpetrated the revival, or do you think that perhaps the character and their respective universe are better off for their revival/current state of affairs?
EDIT: My poll question was too long -- the ending should say "who do you think should have stayed dead?"
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Post by redstatecap on May 14, 2009 0:04:21 GMT -5
Without question, Bucky. It was the one comic-book death (from either big company) that was respected for essentially the entire modern age of comics.
He was revived to make a buck, plain and simple.
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Post by ultron69 on May 14, 2009 7:03:11 GMT -5
There are many good choices, but I chose Barry Allen and Jean Grey. As far as I'm concerned, there are two meaningful comic book death- Gwen Stacy and Barry Allen. All of these characters were brought back to make a buck, so I won't bother mentioning that. However, Barry and Gwen were not only very meaningful deaths, but they both stayed dead for a long time, making their deaths even more meaningful. Barry's ultimate sacrifice should have remained just that. I chose Jean over Gwen because Jean has been brought back so many times that it's become a joke, and it's quite sad. X-Men #137 may be my all time favorite comic, and I now feel like it's been diminished. If I try really hard, maybe I can block out the past 17 years.
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Doctor Bong
Reservist Avenger
Master of belly dancing (no, really...)!
Posts: 167
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Post by Doctor Bong on May 14, 2009 8:56:58 GMT -5
Well, Gwen's still dead, isn't she...? As far as I know... nevertheless, IMO, "Sins Past" was akin to the rape of many old readers' treasured memories...
I selected Bucky and Norman Osborn. For me, Norman was "the Great Nemesis who stays dead". The way things seem to be going now, Marvel's overexposing him much in the same way they did with Iron Man before.
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Post by dlw66 on May 14, 2009 12:39:15 GMT -5
Well, Gwen's still dead, isn't she...? As far as I know... nevertheless, IMO, "Sins Past" was akin to the rape of many old readers' treasured memories... I selected Bucky and Norman Osborn. For me, Norman was "the Great Nemesis who stays dead". The way things seem to be going now, Marvel's overexposing him much in the same way they did with Iron Man before. To the best of my knowledge Gwen is still dead (although is her clone still out there somewhere?). For her, I was getting more at the "current creators trampling..., etc." aspect of her demise. I voted for Gwen Stacy and for Norman Osborn. I started reading comics regularly very shortly after ASM #121-22. I had a friend who had copies of each, so I had access to them almost as soon as I was bitten by the comic bug. So for virtually my entire comics-reading life those two issues served as the backbone to the Spider-verse. Periodically picking up copies of Marvel Tales filled me in on the backstory of Peter/Gwen's romance -- I'd go so far as to say it was a courtship, that Peter should have married her and not Mary Jane. What has happened to both Gwen's legacy and to Osborn in general over the past decade has been a travesty. I shoud say I'm not completely put out by it as I haven't bought a Spider-Man comic since the 2nd clone saga (please seek out the tpb for the 1st clone saga, as it was a really good story that followed very shortly after the events of ASM 121-22). I am not remotely interested in some love affair between the young Gwen and Osborn, and even less interested in him being splashed all over the Marvel Universe. Let them both rest in peace (or in his case, pieces) back in the early 1970's. By the way, I didn't vote for Bucky simply because I haven't read a Cap book in forever. Know what's going on, but don't feel qualified to comment. I will say, though, that Avengers #56 was such a great story about Cap's/Bucky's relationship and its subsequent impact on Cap's life, that anything they've done has kicked sand in the face of Roy and Big John for that story. |
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Post by ultron69 on May 14, 2009 12:57:44 GMT -5
Whom you vote for here probably depends on what your favorite comics are to you. I didn't vote for Norman or Gwen because I don't read much Spider-Man.
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Post by humanbelly on May 14, 2009 13:54:31 GMT -5
Well, if Jarella really has come back in the Hulk (I mentioned elsewhere, I haven't been paying close attention, so I'm not exactly sure what's going on. Kinda looks dubious), that would certainly put a blemish on what was an absolutely heartbreaking, but meaningful, passing. Ohhhh, the scene where Hulk finally accepted that Doc Strange couldn't bring her back, and Valkyrie was holding his head as they both cried as his heart so completely broke. . . . . . .
HB
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Post by dlw66 on May 14, 2009 14:36:07 GMT -5
I recall that scene with the Hulk! You are right -- very meaningful scene.
Ultron, I would agree with you to an extent. Spider-Man was always one of my mainstay titles (ASM, PPTSSM, MTU), but I wouldn't say that I could have separated it as a favorite. However, I would say that many years removed, and after having access to lots of history via the DVD-ROMs of a few years ago, that Spidey is certainly among my top 3 favorite books (Avengers and FF the other two).
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Post by eureka on May 14, 2009 16:38:21 GMT -5
I voted other. I feel Wonder Man returning from the dead not once but twice made the classic Avengers #9 just another story. Men go to or get involved with a villain/villains in order to get a power upgrade then fight the Avengers, after pretending to be one of them.
Simon's original death stood out among Swordsman and Power Man appearances in the book. I enjoyed Simon on the Legion of the Unliving and thought that his appearance with the original Torch was good enough to kick off Vision's origin. No need for Simon to return in #151 for me.
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Post by sharkar on May 14, 2009 20:00:38 GMT -5
Well, if Jarella really has come back in the Hulk (I mentioned elsewhere, I haven't been paying close attention, so I'm not exactly sure what's going on. Kinda looks dubious), that would certainly put a blemish on what was an absolutely heartbreaking, but meaningful, passing. Ohhhh, the scene where Hulk finally accepted that Doc Strange couldn't bring her back, and Valkyrie was holding his head as they both cried as his heart so completely broke. . . . . . . HB That was such a heartbreaking scene and story! I just read it a few months ago, along with a host of other Hulk-Jarella stories, in the recently issued collection "Hulk: Heart of the Atom." I can't recommend this book enough; it traces the saga of the Hulk-Jarella relationship from its start to the tragic end. At its core these stories are about people, love and acceptance. The scene HB mentions is so damned moving...the compassion the Hulk's friends show for him brought tears to my eyes. I never liked Dr. Strange more than I liked him here. There are many other scenes in this book that are just so touching, such as the Hulk (with Banner's intelligence) finally enjoying life as Jarella's consort and being respected by the masses (this is early on in the series). The short-lived nature of his happiness is heartwrenching. This set of stories have Biblical/Homeric overtones and proves that comics (when they're done right, as here) can shed some perceptive light on the human condition. From marvel.com: Hulk: Heart of the Atom Collecting INCREDIBLE HULK #140, #148, #156, #202-203, #205-207 and #246-248; and WHAT IF? #23. |
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Post by dlw66 on May 17, 2009 21:19:23 GMT -5
Have their been any poignant villain deaths (other than ol' Norman) that really ticked you off when reversed? I guess we expect those bad pennies to keep turning up, so perhaps those types are not as impactful.
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Post by Shiryu on May 22, 2009 8:47:38 GMT -5
Gwen and Bucky for me, the former because of the way her memory was tarnished in recent events, the latter for the impact it had on Cap.
Funny enough, I never minded Norman Osborn's return, perhaps because I read some of his modern stories before the reprints showing his death. Besides, he is gone from Spider-Man villain to Marvel Universe villain, so it wasn't all bad.
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Post by humanbelly on May 22, 2009 9:02:25 GMT -5
You know, with the villains, I'm sure there are those instances- but I can't think of a-one offhand. Boy, how about that? Truly, these guys are almost death-proof. If they're a "classic" nemesis (Green Goblin, Dr Doom) no writer is going to want them to remain eternally unavailable. If they really did appear to die (Will O' the Wisp, the Glob), but were poignant enough to spark reader reaction, they ALWAYS manage to return somehow. And if they were a one-off, and no one really cared too much, there's no reason to ressurect them. Say, how many of Scourge's victims managed to crawl back to life? They were all C-listers, for the most part-- have they all managed to stay ensconced in the hereafter?
HB
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Post by Shiryu on May 22, 2009 9:39:28 GMT -5
Besides, with villains there is always the option of someone else taking over their identity. Even when Norman was dead, we had plenty of Goblins and Hobgoblins and didn't really care too much (in fact I like the original Hobgoblin run much more than the early Silver Age Goblin appearances).
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Post by humanbelly on May 23, 2009 15:04:11 GMT -5
OMG-- I'm out mowing the lawn, mind wandering freely, sort of mulling over little bits of discussion here--- and I skipped back to the original question in this thread, and I think maybe we've missed a HUGE one. One that never seemed to carry as much weight, but has since had enormous repercussions.
Aunt May.
Does anyone remember that? She died "for real" about 10 years ago. It was an arc where she'd been fading (cancer, maybe?), had a "one last day" revival (which often happens) that was very touching and tastefully done- a chance to say goodbye to Pete & MJ- and then passed away. I'm pretty sure the best of it took place in whatever the incarnation of Spectacular was at the time. Sal Buscema was the inker, and it was some great work on his part. Although heartbreaking, I thought it was great, and that it held true to the spirit of "real life" being a part of the Marvel Universe. It was the perfect example of growth and change being intertwined with the natural occurrences of life.
But I'm guessing there was a howl from a lot of us fans, 'cause several months later it turns out that the dead "Aunt May" was really just an android or another clone or some lame thing, and that she actually had been kidnapped & held in a life-support tube or something. This took a sweet, touching, personal, and very memorable issue of SPECTACULAR, and made it absolutely meaningless. And I think the reason no one remembers this is because it was all wrapped up in the same time-frame as the awful Clone Saga, and fans have literally banished it en masse from their recollection.
Granted, I since have LOVED much of how May's been used-- updating her look, her resolute manner in accepting that Pete is Spidey, and then aggressively supporting him in the press, her creating a tight, unbreakable family unit w/ Pete & MJ (and her unconditional love of MJ, as well), her budding romance w/ Jarvis & (somewhat unrealistic, yet very entertaining) residence w/ the Avengers.
BUT-- if May had remained dead, this awful, awful, awful BRAND NEW DAY quite possibly might have never happened. Because May wouldn't be there for Pete & MJ to sacrifice their happiness for. Would the writer (was it indeed Bendis?) have found another route to get rid of this "inconvenient" marriage (my god, these writers are such cowards. . .)? Possibly-- but at that point it may have stretched it to a point where it was too implausible even for these marshmallow editors to go with. So, I love her-- but I wish she'd never come back.
And #2! Wow-- what about Reed & Sue's Second Baby?? "A Small Loss", was the title of that FF story, I believe? Right after Secret Wars I. Oh my heavens-- just ripped your heart out and stompified it. Again-- real-world loss. Super folks dealing with tragedies that can bring a halt to any of us. So what happens? As the years go by, we get Franklin bumped up to teenager, then bumped back to little kid, then. . . . alt univ. Valeria pops in from somewhere as a young teenager? Becomes Franklin' big little sister? Is that it? Then. . . . . . . some heretofor-unheard-of cosmic being declares that the situation is all out of whack, and "re-orders" this universe so that. . . Franklin's still little, but now Sue is about to give birth to Valeria. . . again? Do I have this right? Or close? And does Valeria still exist right now? I haven't been keeping up. Plus Dr Doom was involved, I remember that.
But it was a hopeless web that, in my opinion, dragged the book down for a long, long time. Tons of effort spent on dealings with children that are little more than imaginary characters in the long run. Glad Franklin got back to age-appropriate, at least.
So-- there's two more solid "other" votes from my end.
HB-- the scion of voluminous loquaciousness
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Post by spiderwasp on May 24, 2009 19:34:15 GMT -5
HB - You're right. Aunt May's death should have been on the list, not just once, but twice. She died once before that and turned out not to be dead too. It's funny that the writers feel they have to include a death in order to make a story feel important when the opposite is actually true. Death in the MU is so unimporant after so many returns that it just cheapens an event.
I wasn't reading FF during the time of the whole Valeria thing but I am reading it now so I've been wondering where she came from. Your description sounds just convoluted and ridiculous enough to sound accurate. Thanks for the info. I sorta kinda almost understand now.
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Post by dlw66 on May 24, 2009 21:23:48 GMT -5
Sorry about the Aunt May omission -- I haven't read Spider-books since the second clone saga debacle. That, Maximum Carnage, and the return of Osborn drove this True Believer away.
I also didn't know all that FF stuff...
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Post by humanbelly on May 25, 2009 20:13:03 GMT -5
Oh golly, dlw, no apology necessary-- as Spiderwasp pointed out, the habitual use of "A Death in the Family" as a means of cynically boosting sales has rendered the demise of most villains and supporting characters mundane in the extreme. Like I said, I had forgotten about it, too (and I can't remember that earlier one at all! Good grief!). Know what I remembered after that post? Mary Jane "died", too, a couple of years later. A plane she had boarded exploded? EVERYONE I know hated it. A few months later, it turns out she had been kidnapped by a stalker. But the death was meaningless. Just another awful, contrived complication in poor Pete's hang-dog life. It seemed to be driven by a youngish fan contingent who thought Peter was crazy to get married when he could be bedding down dozens of hot babes (the Black Cat being a particular fantasy for them). Yeesh, talk about catering to the lowest common denominator. . .
HB
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Post by sharkar on May 25, 2009 20:33:43 GMT -5
... then. . . . alt univ. Valeria pops in from somewhere as a young teenager? Becomes Franklin' big little sister? Is that it? Then. . . . . . . some heretofor-unheard-of cosmic being declares that the situation is all out of whack, and "re-orders" this universe so that. . . Franklin's still little, but now Sue is about to give birth to Valeria. . . again? Do I have this right? Or close? And does Valeria still exist right now? I haven't been keeping up. Plus Dr Doom was involved, I remember that. Yes, apparently a Valeria from an alternate timeline popped up and then later on her existence was worked into a contemporary story in which Doom plays midwife and delivers her (and a stipulation is that Sue must name her child after Doom's lost love, as I'm sure most of you have already figured out). While this "development" may be preposterous, taken on its own the story arc about Doom's involvement in Valeria's birth is actually quite good; it's very moving. It's collected in the Fantastic Four/Inhumans book that comprises the Inhumans limited series #1-4 and FF vol. 3 #51-54. (I just read this book last year, but from what I gather the stories are from earlier in the decade.) The Inhumans series here is just beautiful visually--it looks like it's drawn on parchment, there's a real otherworldy effect. The story itself is also very effective, you get a real sense of how downtrodden the Inhumans are. Then the Inhumans appear in the FF issues (as does Doom) and the story moves briskly along. Highly recommended. www.marvel.com/catalog/?book_id=6815 |
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Post by humanbelly on May 26, 2009 4:54:37 GMT -5
Ah yes, this brings it all back--- thanks Sharkar.
HB
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Post by Shiryu on May 26, 2009 18:34:01 GMT -5
While this "development" may be preposterous, taken on its own the story arc about Doom's involvement in Valeria's birth is actually quite good; it's very moving. It's collected in the Fantastic Four/Inhumans book that comprises the Inhumans limited series #1-4 and FF vol. 3 #51-54. (I just read this book last year, but from what I gather the stories are from earlier in the decade.) The Inhumans series here is just beautiful visually--it looks like it's drawn on parchment, there's a real otherworldy effect. The story itself is also very effective, you get a real sense of how downtrodden the Inhumans are. Then the Inhumans appear in the FF issues (as does Doom) and the story moves briskly along. Highly recommended. I happened to read it a short time ago and I agree with Sharkar that Doom's role in the story, and the "reward" he asks make it pretty good. I have the volume 1 story where Sue loses the baby on dvd, but haven't had time to read it (along with most of the FF) yet. On a side note, there are two "What if..." books showing possible futures where she did originally survive, and they are worth a look. In the first one she changes the world for the better, but the second one is straight out of a sci-fi horror story ^^ |
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Post by humanbelly on May 26, 2009 21:01:16 GMT -5
Heyheyheyheyheyhey! The God-bless-it-for-hangin'-in-there Spiderman newspaper strip (still by ol' Stan) stated that it is bowing to fan pressure, and is re-instating Peter & MJ's marriage! Right there on the comics page! (To be honest, I don't read the strip much, and had no idea that they'd been Brand New Day-ed there, as well.)
Chinks in the armour, I tell ya. I'm assuming that if-and-when they decide to give our married hostages their real lives back, it will involve whatever whispered deal MJ made w/ Mephisto at the last moment.
And actually, I'm still waiting for it to be revealed that their theoretically-stillborn baby indeed survived. I think the whole company forgot about her being whisked mysteriously away by an unnamed person at the end of that tragic storyline. . .
HB
p.s.-- this. . . . this isn't really the right thread for me to be chatting about this, is it. . . ?
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Post by dlw66 on May 26, 2009 21:12:26 GMT -5
Death of a marriage -- you're good to go!!
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Post by Tana Nile on May 27, 2009 15:37:31 GMT -5
Death has truly become meaningless in comics, but if I could turn back the clock, I'd prevent Osborn from coming back. The deaths of Gwen and Osborn were incredibly powerful to me back when they happened. They just seemed to break all the rules and turn Spidey's universe on its head. But then we got clone Gwen, and then Harry started playing Goblin...the worst was the whole story with Gwen and Norman having kids, but I've discussed that to death.
I guess I would also have liked to see Jean stay dead. Her dying-repeatedly - has become the single biggest joke of the X-Men mythos. It's a shame.
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Post by humanbelly on May 27, 2009 16:49:11 GMT -5
Wow, I've. . . I've always been afraid to even say that I wish Jean had stayed dead. I didn't think it was safe to go there. I thought the whole "event" of the launching of the original "X-FACTOR" was horribly over-hyped, forced, and awkward. But fans were all crowing about how it was a brilliant twist of available plot threads, razza-razza-razza--- so I figured I was just not tuned-in properly. Boy. Thanks for lettin' me come out of the closet, Tana.
HB
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Post by humanbelly on May 27, 2009 20:19:32 GMT -5
[quote On a side note, there are two "What if..." books showing possible futures where she did originally survive, and they are worth a look. In the first one she changes the world for the better, but the second one is straight out of a sci-fi horror story ^^[/quote]
This mention of "What If-?" (thanks Shiryu) has given me the confidence to mention the first story I thought of when this thread was brought up-- but didn't mention it, 'cause it was only. . . "What If--?". It was from the first run, and I believe the title was something like, "What If Susan Richards Had Died In Childbirth?". . . or something very near to. It was a great, great, utterly devastating story. Sue dies, of course, and (SPOILER! SPOILER!) Reed and Annihilus die at the end. But, boy, get it if you can. It's one of the few issues of "What If-?" that lived up to the promise of enlightening our understanding of the "real" MU by looking at alternate possibilities in a meaningful way. Nothing could illustrate Reed's emotional dependence on Sue more than a one-page panel of him sitting amongst a pile of erased data files, quietly murmuring, "My life is over. . . " The clear-minded coldness with which he methodically went about tracking down Annihilus to exact revenge was frightening. Annihilus' terror of Reed was. . . geeze. . . pathetic--- their roles in that sequence becoming nearly reversed. Annihilus simply a creature trying to stay alive, and Reed the relentless killer. Ben & Namor forced to watch as an emotionally ravaged Reed quietly rides w/ the defeated Annihilus on a piece of Neg Zone rock into the exploding unstable area. . . and dies.
While I still completely disagree with the way Reed was used in the Civil War/Initiative stuff--- that story in What If does show what he is/was capable of in extremis.
HB
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Post by Tana Nile on May 28, 2009 13:44:35 GMT -5
Wow, I've. . . I've always been afraid to even say that I wish Jean had stayed dead. I didn't think it was safe to go there. I thought the whole "event" of the launching of the original "X-FACTOR" was horribly over-hyped, forced, and awkward. But fans were all crowing about how it was a brilliant twist of available plot threads, razza-razza-razza--- so I figured I was just not tuned-in properly. Boy. Thanks for lettin' me come out of the closet, Tana. HB HB, I bet there are plenty of people out there who now wish Jean had stayed dead, given all the times she's returned. It just blunts the impact of the original story, which was quite moving. But actually I never wanted Jean to die, and of course the original plans for the story had her surviving but being stripped of all powers. The story behind her death and the involvement of Jim Shooter in the decision that Jean had to die for her crimes is pretty interesting. For those who've never heard it, essentially the plan was for issue 137 to end up with the Shiar psychically removing not just Jean's connection to the Phoenix, but her mutant abilities as well. They recognized that Jean was not responsible for the Phoenix' actions. However, perhaps due to mis-communications between assistant editor Jim Salicrup and Jim Shooter, Shooter was shocked when he saw that Jean was not going to be punished sufficiently (in his opinion) for the destruction of an inhabited planet. Shooter insisted that this psychic lobotomy was not enough. So the end of 137 was re-written, and Jean wound up killing herself. In many ways, it's probably a stronger ending than what was originally planned. Of course, it works better (IMO) if Jean stays dead. It's been told a number of places but one of the best resources (not only for this but for info on the early years of the new X-Men) are a pair of books Fantagraphics published in 1982 called the X-Men Companions I and II. They did extensive interviews with Claremont, Byrne, Austin, etc and you really get the whole story. You might be able to find them on Ebay. |
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Post by Shiryu on May 31, 2009 8:22:23 GMT -5
It's DC and not Marvel, but Jason Todd coming back from the dead was just as bad as Bucky IMO. And unlike Bucky, he hasn't even starred in particularly good stories from what I've seen. PS: anyone reading Incredible Hercules? In the latest issue there is a funny take on these resurrections ;D They are big, so I put them as html link rather than as image. Click on it to see the pic. i41.tinypic.com/2w33ypw.jpgi41.tinypic.com/2vkx3pl.jpg |
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steed
Reservist Avenger
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Post by steed on May 31, 2009 11:49:50 GMT -5
Yeah, I picked up the latest Hulk yesterday and my wife and I laughed and laughed. Having been there for every Game Master story, I thought this was the best. And it does kinda point out how meaningless death is in funny books.
I voted for Barry and Bucky. Their deaths seemed to be meaningful, Bucky filling Cap with angst through the 60's and Barry saving the multi-verse. And neither one needed to come back.
And I still believe Cap wished Bucky back with the Cosmic Cube, which is another story waiting to happen.
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Post by dlw66 on Jun 4, 2009 11:00:11 GMT -5
How do you feel when another person wears the costume/takes the name of a dead character? Minor example -- the Proudstars and the name/costume "Thunderbird".
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