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Post by humanbelly on Jun 4, 2009 13:28:00 GMT -5
*feh*- it's just lame, that's what think. Like Kraven committing suicide, and then his never-before-heard-of son suddenly taking up the mantle? A son who appears to be the same age, and a genetic duplicate?? What's the point? It just turns everyone into potential "Marcus"-es, for Kang to duplicate as necessary to serve a purpose (figuratively speaking).
Y'know, though, the one villain it kind of has worked for, for me, is Mysterio. Having that persona change hands over the years has been kind of neat, since he's such an oddball kind of villain (I mean, basically special effects, technology, performance, sometimes enhanced powers-- but overall lame. . . EXCEPT it's just the best costume EVER!). It's like Mysterio is a great theatrical role, who is larger than the actor portraying him. Or maybe like Dr. Who.
HB
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Post by scottharris on Jun 4, 2009 17:08:38 GMT -5
I actually like this. I think it's more realistic than bringing someone back from the dead and if handled correctly it enhances the legacy rather than tarnishing it. For someone like Thunderbird -- who is one of the few examples left of characters who have remained dead and should remain dead -- it's the logical progression for his brother Warpath. I like it. Goofy junk like that Kraven thing, though, that sort of stuff is dumb. Better than actually bringing Kraven back, but still bad.
DC is very good at this sort of legacy thing -- the whole JSA series is basically based on this idea -- now they just need to actually leave people dead once they have established a successor. *cough* Barry Allen *cough*
(though I do waver on this -- the death of Hal Jordan was a terrible idea to begin with, and the "death" of Oliver Queen was set up to be overturned all along anyway, so I didn't mind either of them coming back)
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 4, 2009 19:22:53 GMT -5
Oh wow, Scott, I almost mentioned the JSA for the very same reasons. I haven't bought that title since shortly after its latest re-launch, but I agree that its handling of legacy and continuity was really great while I was reading it. I loved the previous volume-- am working on filling in gaps in that run.
Probably my biggest knock against this ploy is that it just seems to be a shamelessly transparent ruse to pull in younger readers by throwing out the "older" heroes (or villains), and replacing them with younger ones that the kids can "relate" to. We get a teenage Flash, a much younger Green Lantern, a revivified Vulture, an edgy younger Doc Ock, Kraven Jr (as mentioned). . . do I even need to mention Bucky Cap? (Another exchange I enjoyed in NA #23.) I'm sure there are others I'm not thinking of, as well.
I. . . I somehow didn't know that Barry Allen had finally come back. But he has been SO sorely missed all these years. Wally just is not in the same league, for all of his efforts (of course I stopped buying FLASH, like, ten years ago--- so things may have changed. . . )
HB
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 4, 2009 21:12:06 GMT -5
I voted for Norman and Bucky.
As far as the replacement technique goes, I think it sometimes works well if it's not overused.
I think Harry Osborne becoming the Green Goblin, for example, was very good and far better than having Norman return. Even when Norman's psychiatrist became the Goblin, that still wasn't bad. As others have said, the Thunderbird replacement works but only because we got to know the character as Warbird first. Perhaps if it had been previously established that Kraven had a son or if that son had not been identical to his father, that might could have worked too.
The reason that people have somewhat accepted Bucky as Captain America (Personally, I still don't like it) is that it was slowly set up.
Of course, the best example of this working is Hank Pym becoming the new Wasp after Jan's death. That was a stroke of brilliance.
Yes, I'm kidding.
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Post by dlw66 on Jun 5, 2009 9:48:58 GMT -5
Excellent points on the legacy angle.
I also felt that the way the Hobgoblin came to be was believable and handled well. No matter what you think of the resolution of it all, the build-up through the mid- to late-'80's was good Spidey stuff.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 6, 2009 5:07:19 GMT -5
I wonder. . . I wonder. . . Is it possible that Pym as Wasp isn't really supposed to work? I mean, it's clearly creeping out his teammates as much as it is us reader-folk. It seems to be another- perhaps unfortunate- manifestation of Hank's chronic mental instability, and it is interesting, even if it's not exactly pleasant.
I, of course, am hoping Jan will somehow be returned to the land of the living. (I don't know how she died---- any brief details that can be thrown my way?)
HB
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Post by scottharris on Jun 6, 2009 12:45:17 GMT -5
She died as a result of one of the dumber master plans in Marvel history. In Secret Invasion, the heroes finally gathered together to throw down with the Skrulls, only they didn't factor in the Skrulls' even more secret backup weapon: they had, er, infected the Wasp with... something bad? And then she grew to huge size and was going to, I don't know, explode on everyone or infect them or something? Only, instead she died or Thor killed her or I forget exactly. Whatever it was, it was pretty pointless.
I can't entirely blame Bendis for the lameness of this death, though he gets some of the credit, because of all the super deadly masterstrokes ever planned by villains -- especially as the climax of a company-wide mega event -- having someone grow giant and infect everyone is a pretty idiotic plan. That's the best the Skrulls could come up with? Having said that, though, I think the reason this death was so pointless and carried exactly 0 emotional impact is more due to the terrible art of Leniel Yu or whatever his name is. Not only did it have no drama or emotion, it was difficult to even figure out what was happening because it was so poorly drawn.
As much as I didn't like Civil War, I have to say it was 10 times as competent as Secret Invasion. The only thing keeping Secret Invasion from being the worst mega event in Marvel history is the existence of World War Hulk.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 6, 2009 14:37:59 GMT -5
Thank you Scott. I was going to answer HB's question earlier but when I tried to put into words all I could come up with was phrases like "They gave the Wasp...something" so she would "Grow and...explode on everybody?" which would "Somehow make the Skrulls win..." but in the end "Thor...um...dispersed Jan?". It's nice to see that someone else was just as stuck on how to make sense out of the nonsense. The only thing I'll add to this otherwise (I think) accurate explanation is that it was the Skrull version of Yellowjacket that gave the stuff to Jan so that she could have the new power of growth to add to her repertoire of shrinking, firing stings, and uhmm, growing the exact same way which she had already done shortly before Avengers Disassembled.
I also agree with you in your comparison between Civil War and Secret Invasion. After reading SI, CW seems something akin to "The Coming of Galactus" or "The Korvac Saga." Maybe that's Bendis' plan. If he makes each event worse than the one before, the legacy of the earlier ones will shine. If that's the case, he's certainly on the right track with Dark Reign. This is the first major company crossover I've ever completely avoided (Well, mostly. It's creeping it's way into MA so you can't totally avoid it unless you buy nothing - which I'm practically down to)
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 6, 2009 17:03:38 GMT -5
Well, fellas, thank you. 'Cause in a way the specifics of her demise almost come as good news. What I'm not hearing are words like "body" or "remains" or "final resting place". As soon as the cause of death has anything to do with words like "dispersed", it's almost a given that it will be possible for them to be re-integrated or re-combined somehow at some later date. (Really. Off the top of my head, Dispersed Foes: Absorbing Man, Count Nefaria, Will o' the Wisp, Sandman, Hydroman. . . I'm sure there are scores more, were we to dwell on it at all.)
You know who I'm really worried about when Jan's resurrected, though? Jocasta. She was treated with inexcusable neglect by the rest of the team in her initial incarnation (especially by an amazingly obtuse Vision), and I'm not sure that was ever resolved. As was pointed out in another thread-- she's essentially Jan. In fact, she seems to posses all Jan's best traits w/out too many of her "rich girl" quirks. OF COURSE Jocasta is going to fall in love w/ Hank. I'm sure that's what we're seeing in MA, yes? She's a person with a completely prosthetic body, as it were.
Y'know what I see coming? Hank & Jo wind up in a relationship that's even harder for everyone to swallow than Vision/Wanda was. Jan returns from the dead- traumatized- and decides that she is ready to try marriage again, after all. Aaaaand Hank understands, is sympathetic, and full of regret for the hurt he's going to cause---- but he chooses to stay with Jocasta. For several good reasons, in fact. Jan flips out, and beats the bejeebers out of Hank (ostensibly to get the Wasp mantle back-), and Hank WILL NOT lift a hand against her to defend himself, because he's sworn time and again that he never would strike her again. This would almost be the only way he could redeem himself for battering her all those years ago.
Boy-- I like this story. I hope the writer takes this route.
HB
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Post by starfoxxx on Jun 7, 2009 11:25:27 GMT -5
I also agree with you in your comparison between Civil War and Secret Invasion. After reading SI, CW seems something akin to "The Coming of Galactus" or "The Korvac Saga." Maybe that's Bendis' plan. If he makes each event worse than the one before, the legacy of the earlier ones will shine. If that's the case, he's certainly on the right track with Dark Reign. This is the first major company crossover I've ever completely avoided (Well, mostly. It's creeping it's way into MA so you can't totally avoid it unless you buy nothing - which I'm practically down to) Yes, as I stated in a thread a few months ago (can't remember which one), we b*tched about CIVIL WAR when it was (sloooooowly) wreaking havoc on the MU, but compared to the total crap "super-event-crossovers" Marvel and DC have shoved down our throats since, it was actually pretty good. (at least the main CW series; most of the crossovers were just a rehashing of the main title).
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Post by betaraybill on Jun 7, 2009 22:35:19 GMT -5
You know who I'm really worried about when Jan's resurrected, though? Jocasta. She was treated with inexcusable neglect by the rest of the team in her initial incarnation (especially by an amazingly obtuse Vision), and I'm not sure that was ever resolved. As was pointed out in another thread-- she's essentially Jan. In fact, she seems to posses all Jan's best traits w/out too many of her "rich girl" quirks. OF COURSE Jocasta is going to fall in love w/ Hank. I'm sure that's what we're seeing in MA, yes? She's a person with a completely prosthetic body, as it were. Y'know what I see coming? Hank & Jo wind up in a relationship that's even harder for everyone to swallow than Vision/Wanda was. Jan returns from the dead- traumatized- and decides that she is ready to try marriage again, after all. Aaaaand Hank understands, is sympathetic, and full of regret for the hurt he's going to cause---- but he chooses to stay with Jocasta. For several good reasons, in fact. Jan flips out, and beats the bejeebers out of Hank (ostensibly to get the Wasp mantle back-), and Hank WILL NOT lift a hand against her to defend himself, because he's sworn time and again that he never would strike her again. This would almost be the only way he could redeem himself for battering her all those years ago. Boy-- I like this story. I hope the writer takes this route. HB Sounds good. I'd like to see Jocasta take the bold step of becoming "the Wasp" herself. Then her and Hank would essentially compete for the name, with Hank letting her have it in the end?
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Post by ultron69 on Jun 9, 2009 7:10:19 GMT -5
The sad thing is, as bad as Secret Invasion was, it still got excellent sales numbers. Meaning, Marvel and Bendis will continue to churn out more of the same cr@p in the future. I didn't realize "Marvel Zombies" referred to the readers.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 9, 2009 20:21:22 GMT -5
The sad thing is, as bad as Secret Invasion was, it still got excellent sales numbers. Meaning, Marvel and Bendis will continue to churn out more of the same cr@p in the future. I didn't realize "Marvel Zombies" referred to the readers. Heh-- wasn't that, in fact, who the phrase was coined for back in, like, the late 70's/early 80's? It was an unkind reference to folks (like yours truly) who only bought Marvel Comics, and turned their nose up at the very thought of buying any DC Comics. The very idea. . . HB
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Post by scottharris on Jun 9, 2009 21:10:19 GMT -5
Oh yeah, back when I started reading in the mid-80's, Jim Salicrup used to do an ongoing Marvel Zombie thing in the editorial column of Marvel Age, exhorting his Marvel Zombies to read only Marvels. One of my good friends at the time was also a dedicated comics reader and he was a straight-up Marvel Zombie, refusing to read any DC at all until he finally broke down with the Grell Green Arrow -- an excellent decision.
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Post by Wonder Man 2 on Jun 10, 2009 8:56:24 GMT -5
While most were good choices, three deaths always annoyed me, the deaths of Reed Richards, Tony Stark's first death, and finally Mar-vell. I was upset about Reed's death because we all knew that he would be brought back because of the fact there will and can not be a Fantastic Four without Mr. Fantastic. Not only could no one replace him on the team in name and brain power, but as one of the major cosmic defenders of the MU, he was far to valuble for Marvel to just throw away. Sure, he's a total tool, but even I can't denigh that he is one of Marvel's most defining characters. Besides, I can't imagine Sue moving in with Namor.
Now Tony's "death" annoyed me for the reason we all knew he wasn't actually dead because they would show him in the cryo-chambers, while also showing his funeral. It felt almost like I was getting cheated on what could have actually made a much better story line. Now, as for Mar-vell, I know he didn't actually comeback and that it was really a Skrull who thought he was Mar-vell, but Marvel made such a big deal of his return, when the truth was revealed, I felt like I had wasted my time and money on buying the issues featuring him.
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