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Post by scottharris on Jul 2, 2009 13:47:48 GMT -5
Who won the fight between the Avengers and X-Factor? I just finished reading this issue, and the answer is that both teams lost. Firstly, though the Avengers do appear in this issue, X-Factor doesn't actually fight or meet them. So for the Avengers collector I would say this issue is a curiosity, but not something you necessarily need to purchase. It is interesting, though, mainly because the bad guys and their backstory are nearly identical to the Skrulls and the Skrull motivation during Secret Invasion. I don't mean the Space Jesus part, I mean the thing where they were bent out of shape, so to speak, about Reed Richards turning them into cows. Well, this issue of X-Factor features a race of shape changing aliens called the Xartans. These guys appeared in Journey Into Mystery #90 and were defeated by Thor, who had them shape change into a grove of trees at the end of the story; once they were trees, the lost the ability to think, since trees don't have brains, and thus were trapped forever. Anyway, they get loose here and they are actually more powerful than Skrulls, because basically every one of them is a super-skrull: just by taking the form of a hero they automatically gain all the powers as well. So they observe an Avengers press conference and learn how to copy the Avengers, then they decide to kill X-Factor while disguised as the Avengers. And they trounce X-Factor, because the mutants are hesitant to fight their friends in the Avengers. However, during this time period X-Factor was taking care of a bunch of younger mutants like Rictor, Skids, Boom-Boom, Artie and Leech. The Xartans had studied X-Factor and prepared themselves to counter all of their powers; but they didn't count on these kids interfering, and so when the kids attack they tip the scales and with X-Factor's help beat them. All in all, it's pretty lame to be honest. Key to the kids defeating the aliens is that Leech's power disrupts the alien shapeshifting. I kind of don't think his powers wouldn't affect them. And the basic plot -- the adults get saved by a bunch of kids! -- was annoying to me even when I was a kid myself. On an interesting note, I believe this story takes place during Simonson's run on Avengers, and his wife Louise is writing X-Factor at this time, so it's an inter-family crossover. And one of the few Avengers crossovers featuring Dr. Druid as team leader. The Avengers lineup in this issue only existed for four or five issues of Avengers -- Dr. Druid, Thor, She-Hulk and Black Knight. Had this been a real fight between the two groups, well, I still give the edge to the Avengers because I don't think X-Factor, even with their teen helpers, has an answer for Thor. They'd have to come up with some way to trick him or something. Jean at this point also is pretty much telekentic only, no telepathy, so I think She-Hulk would give them some issues as well, as that group of X-people doesn't have a way to really meet the kind of physical power she has. She'd only have to land one punch to take almost any of them out. Only Leech could counter her, really, but his powers wouldn't affect Dr. Druid, Black Knight or Thor. 10 against 4 is kind of hard to win for the shorthanded team, but in this case I think the final of the fight would be Thor standing and everyone else on the ground unless something broke up the fighting sooner.
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Post by scottharris on Jul 2, 2009 13:56:34 GMT -5
Another comic I got yesterday was this one, which technically qualifies for this thread: What's interesting here is that this story is acually an epilogue to the classic Avengers story from Avengers Annual #7 and MTiO Annual #2. It takes place immediately after the end of that crossover where they fought Thanos. Basically, we learn here that even though the Avengers won, they actually defeated Thanos too late. Turns out enough of his pan was already implemented to seal the fate of the entire universe. The sun, you see, is now generating cosmic power, which is all flowing into Captain Marvel, who is acting like a cosmic magnet. He says that he is going to absorb more and more energy until it will overwhelm him and blow up forst Earth and then the entire universe. His solution is to have Thor kill him before this happens. Thos sort of doesn't want to kill him, despite CM begging him, so CM instead starts to blow up Earth. At this point, Thor somehow activates CM's nega-bands, opening a portal to the Negative Zone, where all that cosmic energy is dissipated (and simultaneously), creating a new sun inside the Negative Zone. It's a fast read, and I kind of didn't really understand why some of this happened really, but it's an interesting story thanks mostly to it's connection to the classic story from Avengers #7. If people dug that two part epic, they might want to pick up this issue of CM.
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Post by scottharris on Jul 2, 2009 14:02:24 GMT -5
A couple more from yesterday's pull list. They don't feature the whole Avengers team, but they technically do have two Avengers on the cover: The second one is interesting because it's one of the relatively few crossovers featuring John Walker as the replacement Captain America, circa Cap #340. It's also interesting for today's reader because it's about a friend of Peter being deported from the country because she can't prove she's been in America long enough to qualify for citizenship. A pretty interesting issue. It reminded me quite a bit in some ways of the recent acclaimed film The Visitor.
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Post by bobc on Jul 2, 2009 15:47:32 GMT -5
Thanks, Scott. I hate when I buy a comic that has two groups squaring off on the cover--only to find they never actually fight. I just bought War of the Kings 5 and the cover makes it look like each Inhuman is going to fight an alien, but it never happens.
I agree that the Avengers would trounce X-Factor back then--but why did Jean Grey only have telekinetic abilities? What was teh deal then? I only vaguely recall that whole series, mainly because I was kinda bored with the X-Men at that point. This was way after the Dark Phoenix stuff, right?
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Post by scottharris on Jul 2, 2009 15:53:17 GMT -5
Yeah, this was about three years after she returned to life. I don't recall the details of why she only had telekinesis. In this issue, Dr. Druid tries to mentally control her and she says something like, "Even though I can no longer use my telepathy, there's still enough residual power for me to block your attempt". I'm not sure when she got her telepathy back, though I know she had it by the time they left X-Factor to rejoin the X-Men in X-Factor #70.
This issue (#32) also has some setup for Inferno, so it was an all-around craptastic time for the X-books.
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Post by bobc on Jul 2, 2009 16:05:31 GMT -5
uhg. Another good reason to keep dead characters dead!
By the way--I doubt all of those X-Men combined could take on Thor by himself! I agree that even the She-Hulk would give the group a big problem! Now if Jean had her telepathic powers it might be a different story.
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Post by sharkar on Jul 2, 2009 17:18:55 GMT -5
Thanks, Scott. I hate when I buy a comic that has two groups squaring off on the cover--only to find they never actually fight. I just bought War of the Kings 5 and the cover makes it look like each Inhuman is going to fight an alien, but it never happens. I just bought WoK #5, too, and you're right--what a letdown!! The WoK covers have been abominable: Black Bolt and Vulcan are on almost every cover, then there's the one with Gladiator and Lilandra in a mating dance, and now this clash cover...and no such scenes occur! Very disappointing covers but unfortunately, these are par for the course these days. (And for those who may be interested, there's a War of Kings thread in the Other Big Events section.) I agree that the Avengers would trounce X-Factor back then--but why did Jean Grey only have telekinetic abilities? What was teh deal then? I only vaguely recall that whole series, mainly because I was kinda bored with the X-Men at that point. This was way after the Dark Phoenix stuff, right? When Jean returned from the dead (the first time ), Mr. Fantastic hypothesized that the grafting of Jean's soul/humanity onto the Phoenix force , and Jean's subsequent disengagement form the force, somehow resulted in the loss of Jean's telepathic abilities...also the whole Phoenix force/cocoon ordeal somehow also strengthened her telekinetic abilities. (His theory may have since been retconned, of course...). Anyway, it's mentioned in FF #286 and in X-Factor #1. And what do you know, FF #286 meets the requirements for this thread--i.e., a non-Avengers title that has at least two Avengers on it!
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Post by scottharris on Jul 2, 2009 18:35:18 GMT -5
And, the issue is also continued from Avengers #263.
On another note, one thing I'm increasingly interested in is long Avengers stories that take place in other titles. As I've been putting together my Avengers crossover collection, I've started coming across a few of these that I wasn't familiar with. The most famous, of course, is the Thanos saga from Captain Marvel #26-33, which prominently features the Avengers throughout and crosses over into Avengers #125.
But I've run into a couple others as well. Yesterday I picked up Daredevil #155, which is the first part of a three-part story featuring the Avengers (they appear on the cover of both #155 and #157). I also got Hulk #284, and after reading the issue it seems like it too is part of a three-part story, as it is continued (I'm assuming from Hulk #283) and then seems to continue into the next issue (to a degree anyway; at the end of the issue, Wasp asks Hulk to join the Avengers as an active member! And he's supposed to give his answer in the next issue).
This sort of thing gets me wondering about how editors and writers set up these stories and why. The Avengers seems to be pretty active in Hulk at this time, as they also appear in Hulk #278-279 and Hulk Annual #11 during this period (then later in #300, #316 and #321-323). Did Hulk need the sales boost from Avengers crossovers? Was there a move afoot to actually have him join the Avengers, and these issues were setting up the possibility only to have a later editorial decision reverse it?
My guess is that in the case of this ongoing Daredevil story, anyway, the title really needed the boost since it was struggling at the time (luckily, the very next issue would see the addition of Frank Miller). There's no real story reason for them to be included. Daredevil reads in the paper that Black Widow has moved into Avengers Mansion (why this is in the paper, I can't imagine; the story takes place during the Korvac Saga, when she and Herc were helping out) and he gets infuriated and smashes into the Mansion to confront her for no good reason (and takes out both Beast and Cap by himself, which, no way). Totally random way to rope the Avengers in to this story for three issues.
Iron Man is another interesting case, although I think the reasons are reversed here. The West Coast Avengers appear in Iron Man #193 and in Iron Man Annual #7, and if memory serves they pop up in some other Iron Man issues at this time also. This is less because Iron Man needs the help than to keep WCA in people's minds, I think, because these stories take place between the end of the WCA limited series and the beginning of their ongoing series. As such they are pretty interesting from a continuity point of view, as they are sort of like missing WCA issues in a way.
Anyone think of any other long term (three issues or more) Avengers stories that appear in other titles? They appear in a 3-part Spectacular Spider-man story (#168-170). They also appear for a few issues of Thor during the Ragnarok storyline, but it's more of a cameo role than a major one (I think they are in a couple scenes here and there from #350-353, with the main involvement coming in the actual crossover issue of Avengers #249).
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Post by sharkar on Jul 2, 2009 19:58:03 GMT -5
And, the issue is also continued from Avengers #263. Yep...and all three stories (Avengers #263, FF #286 and X-Factor #1) are contained in John Byrne Fantastic Four Visionaries Volume 7 (I don't have the original issues). Nice of Marvel to include all these, since the Avengers and X-Factor story aren't illustrated by Byrne. Incidentally, the Byrne FF Vol. 7 also contains another crossover, FF Annual #19 and Avengers Annual #14 (part of the Avengers-Skrull story, which I believe was circa Avengers # 258-261?). One of the first crossovers I encountered was the Avengers/X-Men crossover that started in late 1967, featuring Magneto as the villain. (I was a fan of both series back then.) The story started in Avengers #47-49, then moved over to X-Men #43-#45, and then concluded in Avengers #53. Except for a couple of Avengers cameo panels in the X-Men books, the only real "crossover" characters were Wanda and Pietro, who appeared in all 7 issues (though it was pretty clear after Avengers #49 that the two would soon be on their way out as Avengers). And Magneto and Toad appeared in all the issues. I'd guess that Marvel wanted to give the (then) weak-selling X-Men comic a shot of adrenaline by linking them to the more successful Avengers book.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jul 5, 2009 2:01:30 GMT -5
And what do you know, FF #286 meets the requirements for this thread--i.e., a non-Avengers title that has at least two Avengers on it! Uhmm, not that it matters but since Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Thing, She-Hulk, Crystal, and even Ant-man and Luke Cage have all been Avengers, wouldn't just about every FF cover qualify? Heck, in Bendis' revisionist writing, so has the Human Torch. He, along with Spiderwoman, Nick Fury, and Dr. Strange showed up after Disassembled when references were made to "Everyone here" having been Avengers.
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 5, 2009 6:29:21 GMT -5
And what do you know, FF #286 meets the requirements for this thread--i.e., a non-Avengers title that has at least two Avengers on it! Uhmm, not that it matters but since Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Thing, She-Hulk, Crystal, and even Ant-man and Luke Cage have all been Avengers, wouldn't just about every FF cover qualify? Heck, in Bendis' revisionist writing, so has the Human Torch. He, along with Spiderwoman, Nick Fury, and Dr. Strange showed up after Disassembled when references were made to "Everyone here" having been Avengers. I hadn't caught that. I imagine, though, that a case could be made for that being the original golden age Torch-- 'cause wasn't he a member of the WCA for an issue or so, as well as an annual? Can't remember the poor guy's "real" name. . . HB
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Post by spiderwasp on Jul 5, 2009 11:03:37 GMT -5
Uhmm, not that it matters but since Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Thing, She-Hulk, Crystal, and even Ant-man and Luke Cage have all been Avengers, wouldn't just about every FF cover qualify? Heck, in Bendis' revisionist writing, so has the Human Torch. He, along with Spiderwoman, Nick Fury, and Dr. Strange showed up after Disassembled when references were made to "Everyone here" having been Avengers. I hadn't caught that. I imagine, though, that a case could be made for that being the original golden age Torch-- 'cause wasn't he a member of the WCA for an issue or so, as well as an annual? Can't remember the poor guy's "real" name. . . HB Good thought. I pulled the issue to double check myself. Unless Jim Hammond has taken to wearing a great big 4 on his chest, no such luck. It was actually the Black Panther who says "We were all Avengers once upon a time." I was wrong however in thinking that Dr. Strange was there. He was not but Nick Fury, Luke Cage, Spiderwoman, and Daredevil were. One could easily argue that the Panther just didn't look around that carefully but I think, now that I've seen what Bendis does with history, that he had simply decided that they were all members.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jul 5, 2009 21:14:08 GMT -5
I liked this book. Random groupings are always good for me and I like seeing the women get their shot. This one was good too. I miss this type of graphic novel I just ran across this in my collection. Don't remember much about it though.
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Post by scottharris on Jul 5, 2009 22:01:39 GMT -5
I just ran across this in my collection. Don't remember much about it though. This is an interesting issue for a couple reasons. Thor shows up to help Cap clean up Hydrobase after it's recently been wrecked and they get attacked by the armies of Set (or Seth... one or the other, if there's any difference). During the fight Cap lifts Thor's hammer and gains the power of Thor! Somewhere later this is semi-retconned to say that during times of extreme danger to Thor, the hammer's enchantment eases its requirements so that peope who might not otherwise be able to lift the hammer can do so. I don't know why anyone thought this was necessary. Anyhow, Thor and Cap share a bonding moment afterwards, as anyone who has weilded Thor's hammer becomes part of a sacred brotherhood (as far as Thor is concerned, anyway). Another interesting thing in this issue is that it takes place during the Armor Wars storyline (right after Cap #340) when Tony Stark clobbered Cap as part of his crusade to destroy his pilfered technology. Cap tells Thor about this episode and Thor is really conflicted, because he respects Cap more than any mortal, but Tony has been his close friend for so long. This friendship leads Thor to doubt Cap. However, after Cap lifts the hammer, all doubts are erased and Thor apologizes and basically says that the hammer has proven that Cap is right. However, I don't think Thor ever got around to giving Iron Man a beatdown, because this story started the big epic that led to Odin's death in Thor #400, so Thor was too busy with his own stuff to get involved in Cap and Iron Man's dispute. In terms of the relationships of the Big Three, then, this issue is kind of a turning point. Before this, Thor was much closer to Iron Man, as shown by the fact that they knew each other's secret identities and whatnot; but after Cap lifts the hammer in this issue, Thor really swings over to Cap's side of things. I personally don't think there's any doubt where Thor would have come down in the Civil War debate had he been around; having him on Cap's side would make for an interesting What If story.
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Post by sharkar on Jul 6, 2009 17:49:14 GMT -5
Uhmm, not that it matters but since Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Thing, She-Hulk, Crystal, and even Ant-man and Luke Cage have all been Avengers, wouldn't just about every FF cover qualify? LOL, and let's not forget T'Challa (boy, the cross-pollination between the FF and the Avengers has really gotten out of hand, hasn't it?). Anyway, my comment about the FF #286 cover was primarily meant to be a facetious way of steering the discussion back on topic--though in hindsight I see I was remiss in not underscoring the flippancy of my "And what do you know?" remark with a or emoticon. Mea culpa, my bad, and all that jazz!
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