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Post by thew40 on Feb 20, 2007 11:21:35 GMT -5
It comes out tomorrow! I haven't been this excited about comic coming out in a looooong time! This preview has me all jazzed up: www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CivilWar/07/preview/CW07Pre.htmlThe best dialogue from the preview? Cap: "AVENGERS ASSEMBLE!" Bishop: "What's he talking about? I thought our side was the Avengers?" ~W~
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Post by imperiusrex on Feb 20, 2007 12:58:54 GMT -5
the worst dialogue? Cap sitting there, his head in the clutches of Lady Deathstrike (you might want to move, Cap...) and he says "No I'm just thinking of my pal up there kicking your butts into next week..." Ah, the grace and eloquence that Cap is well known for is on great display here... Really, one of cap's most interesting points is that he often talks like a man out of time, with a speech pattern formed by the thirties and forties. it was one of the tenets of JM DeMatties' run on Cap's book. There are any of a hundred characters who can rattle off a third rate junk throwaway line like this. Cap is one of the few characters who has a reason to have good distinct speech pattern. Is it so hard to use it in an interesting fashion?
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Post by Doctor Doom on Feb 20, 2007 17:31:04 GMT -5
Wow. It's when all the absoloute haters of CW can complain about is the lack of disctinctive speech patterns from Cap's talking that you can tell just how high quality this preview is.
Seen reviews at CBR and IGN. (Both non spoiler). One likes, the other thinks it's okay but anticlimatic. Both say the actual ending itself is a calm note. IGN say the characterization is better than ever before in this series and the finale rightly focuses on Cap and Iron Man, as well as the climax being about CHARACTER rather than about action or shock.
LOVE the Avengers Assemble line, the best "Avengers Assemble!" we've seen since in a half decade or more. (beating out the Young Avengers one and the JLA one)
It's funny; I think we already know most of you folk are guaranteed to hate it and will do so no matter what is in this issue but I think it's great how marvel and DC have almsot swapped places in the last year or two. People used to talk in the late 90s/early 200s about how Marvel was all shock and death and no substance, like Disassembled. Now we have civil war where there are barely any casualties, and Infinite Crisis were about twenty characters died in issue 4 in gruesome ways just to make the villain look cool.
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Post by imperiusrex on Feb 20, 2007 19:03:18 GMT -5
Wow. It's when all the absoloute haters of CW can complain about is the lack of disctinctive speech patterns from Cap's talking that you can tell just how high quality this preview is. Seen reviews at CBR and IGN. (Both non spoiler). One likes, the other thinks it's okay but anticlimatic. Both say the actual ending itself is a calm note. IGN say the characterization is better than ever before in this series and the finale rightly focuses on Cap and Iron Man, as well as the climax being about CHARACTER rather than about action or shock. LOVE the Avengers Assemble line, the best "Avengers Assemble!" we've seen since in a half decade or more. (beating out the Young Avengers one and the JLA one) It's funny; I think we already know most of you folk are guaranteed to hate it and will do so no matter what is in this issue but I think it's great how marvel and DC have almsot swapped places in the last year or two. People used to talk in the late 90s/early 200s about how Marvel was all shock and death and no substance, like Disassembled. Now we have civil war where there are barely any casualties, and Infinite Crisis were about twenty characters died in issue 4 in gruesome ways just to make the villain look cool. sorry you didn't like my critique, but it is stupid lame dialogue that doesn't make sense for the character. you can choose to ignore it as is your right, but it doesn't make my complaint about it any less valid. and unlike your reply I at least give a thought out reason with years of cap as my basis as to why i didn't like the dialogue. all you can say is "he must be a hater." well, that's well thought out, that's a great excellent smartly done rebuttal. here's more why it's so bad. would this dialogue as presented work for USAgent? yes and here's why: Agent would show some aggression and arrogance during the course of a battle; he would talk about kicking someone's butt and he would ignore a present threat to himself, just to gloat. if the dialogue would work for Walker, it shouldn't work for Steve Rogers. Now perhaps this is just me, where I expect some semblance of character, some distinctive traits to seep through, but when dialogue doesn't fit a long established personality, then maybe it doesn't belong there. However, maybe Cap should get that standard tough patois that'll make him less distinct and less interesting just so he can fit in more with marvel's current grim and grit. And besides that. what is there to discuss besides a couple of fight pages. big deal. are you ready to crown it an instant classic based on this preview? it's very short and doesn't give much. and what else I love is your practically crowning it the glowing and highest praise having only seen a scant few pages, but when i don't like it, it's fall back on the standard "hater" approach. Heaven forbid some of not like it just because we don't think it's very good... And CW has a lot of death too from what I recall (will check again for accuracy, but believe this a fairly close list)-- Black Goliath Bantam Night Thrasher Namorita Microbe Speedfreak Colbalt Man Coldheart Jester Jack O Lantern Stiltman almost a dozen characters. not exactly twenty (then again not sure if twenty died in IC either), but CW ain't over yet, either. could be any number of deaths big or peripheral coming up.
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Post by redstatecap on Feb 20, 2007 21:01:01 GMT -5
the worst dialogue? Cap sitting there, his head in the clutches of Lady Deathstrike (you might want to move, Cap...) and he says "No I'm just thinking of my pal up there kicking your butts into next week..." Ah, the grace and eloquence that Cap is well known for is on great display here... Millar is writing Ultimate Cap and has been since CW started. He seems to be unaware that there is a major difference from "616" Cap. RSC
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Post by The Night Phantom on Feb 20, 2007 21:07:40 GMT -5
Wow. It's when all the absoloute haters of CW can complain about is the lack of disctinctive speech patterns from Cap's talking that you can tell just how high quality this preview is. You might not put any stock in words. Some people do.
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Post by spiderwasp on Feb 20, 2007 21:33:46 GMT -5
sorry you didn't like my critique, but it is stupid lame dialogue that doesn't make sense for the character. you can choose to ignore it as is your right, but it doesn't make my complaint about it any less valid. and unlike your reply I at least give a thought out reason with years of cap as my basis as to why i didn't like the dialogue. all you can say is "he must be a hater." well, that's well thought out, that's a great excellent smartly done rebuttal. here's more why it's so bad. would this dialogue as presented work for USAgent? yes and here's why: Agent would show some aggression and arrogance during the course of a battle; he would talk about kicking someone's butt and he would ignore a present threat to himself, just to gloat. if the dialogue would work for Walker, it shouldn't work for Steve Rogers. Now perhaps this is just me, where I expect some semblance of character, some distinctive traits to seep through, but when dialogue doesn't fit a long established personality, then maybe it doesn't belong there. However, maybe Cap should get that standard tough patois that'll make him less distinct and less interesting just so he can fit in more with marvel's current grim and grit. And besides that. what is there to discuss besides a couple of fight pages. big deal. are you ready to crown it an instant classic based on this preview? it's very short and doesn't give much. and what else I love is your practically crowning it the glowing and highest praise having only seen a scant few pages, but when i don't like it, it's fall back on the standard "hater" approach. Heaven forbid some of not like it just because we don't think it's very good... And CW has a lot of death too from what I recall (will check again for accuracy, but believe this a fairly close list)-- Black Goliath Bantam Night Thrasher Namorita Microbe Speedfreak Colbalt Man Coldheart Jester Jack O Lantern Stiltman almost a dozen characters. not exactly twenty (then again not sure if twenty died in IC either), but CW ain't over yet, either. could be any number of deaths big or peripheral coming up. I'm with you. I think these boards should be places where people can freely say they don't like something without always being accused of being a hater. All I saw you say was that you didn't like a particular line. I hardly inferred that you were saying this book that you haven't yet read was bad. Besides, even if you were "Just a hater" the fact that this the only thing you could find to criticize might be because it's a PREVIEW. Enjoy the karma
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Post by redstatecap on Feb 20, 2007 21:42:10 GMT -5
...People used to talk in the late 90s/early 200s about how Marvel was all shock and death and no substance, like Disassembled. Now we have civil war where there are barely any casualties, and Infinite Crisis were about twenty characters died in issue 4 in gruesome ways just to make the villain look cool. Uhh... Courtesy of wikipedia... The super-casualty list: --Cobalt Man, killed at Stamford --Coldheart, killed at Stamford --Microbe, killed at Stamford --Namorita, killed at Stamford --Night Thrasher, killed at Stamford --Speedfreak, killed at Stamford --Bantam, killed by Thunderclap --Digitek, committed suicide --Goliath, had a wide bloody hole blown through his chest by Clor --Happy Hogan, killed fighting Spymaster --Hammerhead, shot through head by Underworld --Slyde, shot by Underworld --Jack O'Lantern, head blown off by Punisher --Jester, head blown off by Punisher --Plunderer, shot by Punisher --Goldbug, killed by Punisher --Stilt-Man II, killed by Punisher --Typeface, thrown under a bus by Venom --at least one more hero in issue #7, the "big shock death" we keep hearing about --several as-yet-unnamed villains at Hammerhead's summit likely killed in Iron Man's raid Total bodycount of supers: 19 confirmed plus several more as-yet-unnamed casualties. You will also note that several of these casualties died in gruesome ways to make the killer look cool -- notably Bill Foster and the Punisher's kills. The non-super casualty list: --612 killed at Stamford --50+ other civilians and police officers from later fighting --the crew of a US nuclear sub, approximately 130 men --a substantial number of SHIELD personnel, probably in the hundreds --a substantial number of HYDRA personnel, also probably in the hundreds Total bodycount of non-supers: 800 confirmed, plus hundreds more implied. I think a good ballpark figure is around 1500 non-supers. You were saying something about "barely any casualties?" RSC
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Post by spiderwasp on Feb 20, 2007 22:10:32 GMT -5
...People used to talk in the late 90s/early 200s about how Marvel was all shock and death and no substance, like Disassembled. Now we have civil war where there are barely any casualties, and Infinite Crisis were about twenty characters died in issue 4 in gruesome ways just to make the villain look cool. Uhh... Courtesy of wikipedia... The super-casualty list: --Cobalt Man, killed at Stamford --Coldheart, killed at Stamford --Microbe, killed at Stamford --Namorita, killed at Stamford --Night Thrasher, killed at Stamford --Speedfreak, killed at Stamford --Bantam, killed by Thunderclap --Digitek, committed suicide --Goliath, had a wide bloody hole blown through his chest by Clor --Happy Hogan, killed fighting Spymaster --Hammerhead, shot through head by Underworld --Slyde, shot by Underworld --Jack O'Lantern, head blown off by Punisher --Jester, head blown off by Punisher --Plunderer, shot by Punisher --Goldbug, killed by Punisher --Stilt-Man II, killed by Punisher --Typeface, thrown under a bus by Venom --at least one more hero in issue #7, the "big shock death" we keep hearing about --several as-yet-unnamed villains at Hammerhead's summit likely killed in Iron Man's raid Total bodycount of supers: 19 confirmed plus several more as-yet-unnamed casualties. You will also note that several of these casualties died in gruesome ways to make the killer look cool -- notably Bill Foster and the Punisher's kills. The non-super casualty list: --612 killed at Stamford --50+ other civilians and police officers from later fighting --the crew of a US nuclear sub, approximately 130 men --a substantial number of SHIELD personnel, probably in the hundreds --a substantial number of HYDRA personnel, also probably in the hundreds Total bodycount of non-supers: 800 confirmed, plus hundreds more implied. I think a good ballpark figure is around 1500 non-supers. You were saying something about "barely any casualties?" RSC Wow! Facts sure are hard to argue with. I'm sure that won't stop some folks though.
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Post by sharkar on Feb 20, 2007 22:26:18 GMT -5
Really, one of cap's most interesting points is that he often talks like a man out of time, with a speech pattern formed by the thirties and forties. it was one of the tenets of JM DeMatties' run on Cap's book. ... Cap is one of the few characters who has a reason to have good distinct speech pattern. Rex makes an excellent point; dialogue is not inconsequential. It's a key element of fiction, as it's often used to establish characterization (as others in this thread have said). Character-specific, appropriate dialogue is one of the things that separated Marvel from DC during the comics renaissance in the 60s...Marvel's characters had distinctive "voices", while over at DC everyone spouted the same words. You know the old story: about how you could have anyone in the 1960s Justice League saying anyone else's dialogue, it was interchangeable, that it wouldn't matter who was saying what, etc....and it wasn't just the readers who noticed this, DC's own editors (Denny O'Neil et al.) commented on this too!
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Post by Tana Nile on Feb 20, 2007 22:57:01 GMT -5
Millar is writing Ultimate Cap and has been since CW started. He seems to be unaware that there is a major difference from "616" Cap. RSC Agreed, I noticed this almost immediately in CW. Even over in Cap's own book, he has become a much rougher guy than I recall, although I still think Brubaker has done a heck of a job. The only thing I can think of to justify Millar's writing of Cap is that perhaps this is his only way of showing to what degree Cap has been changed by this war (much as Stark has), and that at the conclusion he may realize how he has betrayed his own ideals. I guess we'll see if that's the case. I'll be heading out to the store to get CW 7 tomorrow, despite my concerns over the new direction of the Marvel Universe.
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Post by thew40 on Feb 20, 2007 23:06:21 GMT -5
Only at Avenger Assemble! does every little detail get scrutinized, critized and deemed only either "good" or "bad."
Why wouldn't Cap say something like that? He's not allowed to say "butts?" Not even to a villian?
~W~
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Post by The Night Phantom on Feb 20, 2007 23:09:47 GMT -5
The only thing I can think of to justify Millar's writing of Cap is that perhaps this is his only way of showing to what degree Cap has been changed by this war My problem with that theory is that Millar has written him thus from the beginning, as noted in my initial critique of CW #1.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Feb 20, 2007 23:12:16 GMT -5
Only at Avenger Assemble! does every little detail get scrutinized, critized and deemed only either "good" or "bad." Oh, get real. The same reason any person speaks like himself and not like all other persons.
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Post by thew40 on Feb 20, 2007 23:20:44 GMT -5
...People used to talk in the late 90s/early 200s about how Marvel was all shock and death and no substance, like Disassembled. Now we have civil war where there are barely any casualties, and Infinite Crisis were about twenty characters died in issue 4 in gruesome ways just to make the villain look cool. Uhh... Courtesy of wikipedia... The super-casualty list: --Cobalt Man, killed at Stamford --Coldheart, killed at Stamford --Microbe, killed at Stamford --Namorita, killed at Stamford --Night Thrasher, killed at Stamford --Speedfreak, killed at Stamford --Bantam, killed by Thunderclap --Digitek, committed suicide --Goliath, had a wide bloody hole blown through his chest by Clor --Happy Hogan, killed fighting Spymaster --Hammerhead, shot through head by Underworld --Slyde, shot by Underworld --Jack O'Lantern, head blown off by Punisher --Jester, head blown off by Punisher --Plunderer, shot by Punisher --Goldbug, killed by Punisher --Stilt-Man II, killed by Punisher --Typeface, thrown under a bus by Venom --at least one more hero in issue #7, the "big shock death" we keep hearing about --several as-yet-unnamed villains at Hammerhead's summit likely killed in Iron Man's raid Total bodycount of supers: 19 confirmed plus several more as-yet-unnamed casualties. You will also note that several of these casualties died in gruesome ways to make the killer look cool -- notably Bill Foster and the Punisher's kills. The non-super casualty list: --612 killed at Stamford --50+ other civilians and police officers from later fighting --the crew of a US nuclear sub, approximately 130 men --a substantial number of SHIELD personnel, probably in the hundreds --a substantial number of HYDRA personnel, also probably in the hundreds Total bodycount of non-supers: 800 confirmed, plus hundreds more implied. I think a good ballpark figure is around 1500 non-supers. You were saying something about "barely any casualties?" RSC Outside of the New Warriors and Goliath, does anyone really care or have as deep as an emotional connection with any of those characters as they would, say, Spider-Man, Cap, or Wolverine? Probably not. Also, note that (1) you can't always trust Wikipedia (where in the world did they get that civilian/police number?); and (2) not all of those deaths appeared "Civil War" proper. The ones that occured in the actual mini-series actually meant something and had an impact on the characters and the story -- not just for "shock value." Tomorrow will be the true test. Heh . . . issue isn't even out yet and here we are, aruging it over. As much as I hate arguing (it would be nice to have a thread where we all got along and enjoyed something and could discuss it without every other post lambasting a creator) . . . it's nice to know some things never change. EDIT: You know, the more I look at that non-supers list, the more I have to question it. The SHIELD deaths are probably high, but not in the hundreds. The only time we see SHIELD agents killed are in Black Panther (maybe), Wolverine and Frontline -- and that's only off the top of my head, mind you. Granted, more are implied. The Hydra numbers are probably in the hundreds, since they're kinda the bitches of "Civil War." Note that it doesn't list Atlantian number, some of whom died in (again) Wolverine and Frontline. Where's the substantial proof that more civilians and police officers were killed than what we saw? I certainly haven't seen 50 deaths, nor have I seen that number even implied. Also, just a quick response on your "look cool" notation. The Punisher has always been into cool-looking deaths. It's a not a new idea. Still jazzed up about this issue, though! ~W~
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Post by redstatecap on Feb 20, 2007 23:26:50 GMT -5
Only at Avenger Assemble! does every little detail get scrutinized, critized and deemed only either "good" or "bad." Why wouldn't Cap say something like that? He's not allowed to say "butts?" Not even to a villian? ~W~ It's really not about the one line of dialogue. Millar is writing Ultimate Cap.This line of dialogue is only important as one of many examples of dialogue and characterization which demonstrate that Millar does not understand the very significant differences between his Ultimate Cap, and the 616 Cap which he is supposed to be writing for this series. Other examples just off the top of my head: --the "pampered punk" exchange with Iron Man --chiding the Air Force pilot for his language is literally straight out of Millar's Ultimate Cap --speaking about Goliath's death as a recruiting tool None of these things represents the 616 Cap I've read about for 25 years. RSC
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Post by thew40 on Feb 20, 2007 23:38:42 GMT -5
Only at Avenger Assemble! does every little detail get scrutinized, critized and deemed only either "good" or "bad." Why wouldn't Cap say something like that? He's not allowed to say "butts?" Not even to a villian? ~W~ It's really not about the one line of dialogue. Millar is writing Ultimate Cap.This line of dialogue is only important as one of many examples of dialogue and characterization which demonstrate that Millar does not understand the very significant differences between his Ultimate Cap, and the 616 Cap which he is supposed to be writing for this series. Other examples just off the top of my head: --the "pampered punk" exchange with Iron Man --chiding the Air Force pilot for his language is literally straight out of Millar's Ultimate Cap --speaking about Goliath's death as a recruiting tool None of these things represents the 616 Cap I've read about for 25 years. RSC Ah, but it represents that Cap I've read about for 15 years. Sure, he's a good guy, but he's also bad-ass. The guy stood up to Thanos even after all of the other heroes were killed. He took down Kang. Lines like that from Millar, they maybe written from a more "Ultimate" angle, but I feel they work just fine with 616 Cap. They don't detract from the character, they don't turn him into a serial killer . . . they just sound cool. Granted, the day that 616 Cap shouts "You think this 'A' stands from France?!" I'll concede your point. Also, after chiding the pilot on his language, he took him out for burger and fries. What a guy! ~W~
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Post by thew40 on Feb 20, 2007 23:53:53 GMT -5
Hey, does anyone else plan on reading this issue with the other six? I always do that with the end of an arc/mini. Makes it seem like a bigger story.
~W~
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Post by imperiusrex on Feb 21, 2007 1:13:57 GMT -5
It's really not about the one line of dialogue. Millar is writing Ultimate Cap.This line of dialogue is only important as one of many examples of dialogue and characterization which demonstrate that Millar does not understand the very significant differences between his Ultimate Cap, and the 616 Cap which he is supposed to be writing for this series. Other examples just off the top of my head: --the "pampered punk" exchange with Iron Man --chiding the Air Force pilot for his language is literally straight out of Millar's Ultimate Cap --speaking about Goliath's death as a recruiting tool None of these things represents the 616 Cap I've read about for 25 years. RSC Ah, but it represents that Cap I've read about for 15 years. Sure, he's a good guy, but he's also bad-ass. The guy stood up to Thanos even after all of the other heroes were killed. He took down Kang. Lines like that from Millar, they maybe written from a more "Ultimate" angle, but I feel they work just fine with 616 Cap. They don't detract from the character, they don't turn him into a serial killer . . . they just sound cool. Granted, the day that 616 Cap shouts "You think this 'A' stands from France?!" I'll concede your point. Also, after chiding the pilot on his language, he took him out for burger and fries. What a guy! ~W~ Well I've been reading Cap for close to 35 years and it doesn't sound like him at all. I've detailed several reasons which you don't address. Here's another one. There's a very good chance someone will die during this battle. Cap is a master tactician and knows this. Knows the person who will die could very well be someone or several someones he has fought alongside since his second life began. And that this someone or several someone are possibly going to die fighting one of their own in a battel that shouldn't be happening. The Cap I know and have read forever, wouldn't joke at a time like that. he'd be incredibly remorseful about this whole situation. Again, good dialogue should be written so that you dont see the artwork and can still read the character. Cap is tough, and brave but he has a distinct speaking pattern with a respect and determination. The line reads full of smirking bragaddocio and that is not Cap. You don't mind it and that's your right as a reader, but you can't presume to tell those of us who don't like it we don't have a case. That's not your call. It's a matter of taste and opinion and for many of us it does not work. That's it. Period. It works for you. Groovy. Enjoy it. I think it's terrible and poorly written and doesn't reflect the character in this situation. And I keep giving actual reasons why it doesn't work for me. what else do I need to do? Pie Chart? call Steve Englehart and Mark Waid for a conference call about Cap's character? And again, you want to complain about a line being scrutinized or touted as good or bad when you started a very thread that claimed a line in the preview was one you enjoyed. Am I the only one that strikes as incredibly odd? Why do you get to like what you see, but I don't get to dislike what I see? It's a bit of a double standard if you ask me. How about you just admit you're allowed to have a valid opinion and I am too? It'll make life a lot easier.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Feb 21, 2007 1:55:44 GMT -5
Happy Hogan died...
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Post by Doctor Bong on Feb 21, 2007 1:56:14 GMT -5
Say it isn't so...!!!
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Post by redstatecap on Feb 21, 2007 2:26:03 GMT -5
Happy Hogan is, in fact, a "casualty of Civil War." Too bad he wasn't at least expended for something worthwhile. Until they retcon it, anyways.
RSC
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Post by redstatecap on Feb 21, 2007 2:32:35 GMT -5
Hey, does anyone else plan on reading this issue with the other six? I always do that with the end of an arc/mini. Makes it seem like a bigger story. ~W~ To do that, I would had to have bought the other 6 issues. Fortunately, the $21 was much more profitably spent on toilet paper. RSC
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 21, 2007 4:03:57 GMT -5
I'm fairly curious to see CW 7 and will be getting it as soon as possible. It's by far not the comic I have been looking forward the most (that would be Avengers/JLA #4 I think), but I do want to see how this will all end.
As for Cap speech, I think the change occurred before CW, somewhere along the line in V4 of his own book (and I agree it's a pity, I liked Cap's way of talking). The most classic speaking Cap I've seen recently is probably the one by JMS on Amazing Spider-Man.
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 21, 2007 8:44:02 GMT -5
Heh . . . issue isn't even out yet and here we are, aruging it over. As much as I hate arguing (it would be nice to have a thread where we all got along and enjoyed something and could discuss it without every other post lambasting a creator) . . . it's nice to know some things never change. ~W~ Yeah, like you don't like to argue...
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Post by thew40 on Feb 21, 2007 9:36:42 GMT -5
Rexy (can I call ya Rexy?), I never said you didn't have a case or didn't have a right to feel the way you feel. If you disagree with Cap's dialogue, that's your business and your opinion. Cap is still the same Cap, if you ask me, but that's just me.
dlw66, it's not that I don't like to argue, it's just that it would be nice to have a decent convo for once.
As for Happy Hogan, he died in Iron Man # 16. I wasn't very happy about it, but if memory serves me right, it had to do with subplot unrelated to "Civil War."
~W~
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 21, 2007 9:44:38 GMT -5
W --
I wouldn't call a 40-year old man "Rexy", but that's maybe just me...
Arguing, you must understand, is what makes a message board, forum, etc. interesting. The reason we have conversation around here is because we have some basic, general groups:
Me, Rex, sharkar, steed, tananile, and a few others who are 60's-70's children You and Doom who are more 90's-00's children The Night Phantom, resident thesaurus-abuser, forced non-English language user, and moral conscience for us all
This is what keeps it all going!
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Post by thew40 on Feb 21, 2007 9:50:55 GMT -5
W -- I wouldn't call a 40-year old man "Rexy", but that's maybe just me... 40! Really?!?! I wasn't even thinking! Sorry, ImperiousRex! I'm afraid you old fogeys will just have to forgive me. I'm just a young, 24-year old whipper-snapper, what with my video games and DVDs and acne and New Avengers . . . ~W~
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Post by Tana Nile on Feb 21, 2007 10:00:53 GMT -5
The only thing I can think of to justify Millar's writing of Cap is that perhaps this is his only way of showing to what degree Cap has been changed by this war My problem with that theory is that Millar has written him thus from the beginning, as noted in my initial critique of CW #1. Well, I didn't say it was a good tool for showing this!Maybe I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. But going back to issue one, you're correct. When Cap is fighting the SHIELD agents on the carrier, he says to one of them, "Don't even think about it, little man". That's not 616 Cap. Like Rex said, after 35 or so years reading Cap, we have a pretty good grasp on how he sounds, how he thinks, behaves, etc. He has consistently been portrayed as a man of deep respect and honor, following what some might consider to be out-dated ideals, but they define what he is as a person. Although Brubaker has made Cap a bit more of a soldier than before, I think he still has a good grasp of the character. Compare Millar's Ultimate Cap saying "This A on my head doesn't stand for France" as opposed to Brubaker's wonderful speech from Cap in issue 3 about the French Resistance. Everything he says is true to the personality of Cap as we've known him. I remember reading the Kang story from vol.3, where Cap goes toe to toe with Kang, and being really rocked when he said "Now you miserable jacked up little tin Hitler, let's end this!" That was strong stuff coming from Cap, but it still felt like Cap.
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 21, 2007 10:11:49 GMT -5
I thought Night Phantom said it best earlier when he said that we all have individual speech patterns, and even our mythological characters need to adhere to theirs. That's part of what some of us mean when we discuss "characterization".
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