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Post by dlw66 on Mar 7, 2007 12:55:18 GMT -5
SPOILERS!!!! In light of today's sad news, let us honor the greatest Avenger with a series of reflections on our favorite moments in Avengers' lore that directly involved Steve Rogers. Great images for me:  End to a great two-parter that introduced the Swordsman and gave an early origin for Hawkeye. The Kooky Quartet learned in this issue what it means to be a hero, and to work as a team. Great Cap moment to start the issue.  See comments elsewhere in the Classic Avengers section. I will add that this is one of the issues that gives every reason why Bucky should not have been resurrected.  The definitive Captain America as leader of the Avengers. The ending scene is priceless. |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 7, 2007 14:03:25 GMT -5
Two things
Firstly, I think the name of this thread is pretty clear spoilers so if I hadn['t spoiled myself I would be enraged right now. Secondly, if Avengers 56 gives the greatest reasons why Bucky should not come back, they are very much overshadowed by the reasons he SHOULD, and did.
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Post by balok on Mar 7, 2007 14:20:44 GMT -5
To be fair, I knew what happened in today's issue as soon as I surfed CNN this morning.
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Post by thew40 on Mar 7, 2007 14:36:55 GMT -5
My favorite issues/moments would be when Cap took on Kang during the "Kang Dynasty;" Steve Rogers at Ground Zero, then saving that guy from being mugged because of his ethnicity in "Captain America" # 1 (volume 4); Captain America surrendering in "Civil War" # 7 (good bye, karma!); and when Cap stood up to Thanos in "Infinity Gauntlet." Farewell, Steve! I'll see you when you come back next year! To be fair, I knew what happened in today's issue as soon as I surfed CNN this morning. That's kinda cool. ~W~ |
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 7, 2007 15:00:59 GMT -5
My apologies, Doom. Given that there were 25 posts in the CA #25 thread, and that most of the people around here come here all the time and are somewhat privy to what goes on, and not to mention that this death had been somewhat anticipated as at least a possiblility, I went ahead with the thread.
However, you have my apologies. If I could change it now, I would.
EDIT: I could change the title, and have done so.
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 7, 2007 15:44:23 GMT -5
...if Avengers 56 gives the greatest reasons why Bucky should not come back, they are very much overshadowed by the reasons he SHOULD, and did. Ummmm... don't know about the reasons why he should be back (nor should Norman Osborn, or Jean Grey (2nd time -- Phoenix worked for me; Uncle Ben has to be next :  , but this issue is very emotional and shows the true angst of Cap in light of Bucky's death -- at this point 20 years past. |
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 7, 2007 19:20:05 GMT -5
... I would be enraged right now. And another thing... most of us think you're just always enraged anyway! ;D  |
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Mar 7, 2007 21:12:40 GMT -5
Yeah -- Cap was a good old horse.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 14, 2007 9:26:15 GMT -5
One of my favorite moments was when Cap gives Superman his shield in the Avengers/JLA.
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Post by Tana Nile on Mar 14, 2007 11:21:18 GMT -5
One of my favorite moments was when Cap gives Superman his shield in the Avengers/JLA. Yes, that was a good one! That brings up memories of so many other great Cap moments. He also gave his shield to Wonder Man when Nefaria attacked them, and Wondy was practically speechless. How about when 'The Captain' was able to lift Thor's hammer? Or Cap standing up to Thanos in Infinity Gauntlet? What are everybody's favorites? |
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Post by redstatecap on Mar 14, 2007 11:29:53 GMT -5
...f Avengers 56 gives the greatest reasons why Bucky should not come back, they are very much overshadowed by the reasons he SHOULD, and did. Right: 1)$$$ 2)$$$ 3)$$$ 4)$$$ 5)$$$ Did I miss any reasons? RSC |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 14, 2007 11:39:55 GMT -5
Well I suppose you could always try "Massively critically acclaimed and called many times the best story in Cap history" as a reason why it was a good idea- that it made an awesome story, but that's just me...
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 14, 2007 12:19:17 GMT -5
I'm curious (and I haven't read any of Winter Soldier): would it have made a difference to those of you who liked/hated it if it had been an "Elseworlds" story? Did it have to be canon to be impactful?
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Mar 14, 2007 12:19:34 GMT -5
Cap has never been my favorite Avengers. I've always felt his personality was a little overbearing and he was kind of bossy -- that's kind of how Hawkeye felt about him at first too. When I read the Kooky Quartet saga, I came to appreciate Cap's leadership qualities just as Hawkeye did, every step of the way.
My favorite Cap moment was when he wrote a letter to Nick Fury, shortly after being revived, to request membership in SHIELD. The address wasn't current though, and the Swordsman found it and used that letter to capture Cap, directly leading to Cap being thrown off that building on the cover of issue 20.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 14, 2007 13:39:07 GMT -5
Honestly, I 100% think it did, because things like the fate of the Skull and the impact of Bucky's return have no meaning to me if it's not the real character. I mean, one of the best moments was simply Cap trying to deal with his newfound knowledge of Winter Soldier and his memories, and remembering being with Bucky in an exchange which ended with Bucky saying, "Sometimes I think I'm the only one who really understands you!" or something similar. Then present-day Cap buries his head in his hands. That stuff has no impact if it's Elseworlds.
Oh, do yourself a favour- buy this book. Seriously. I know I like much that you don't, but an overwhelming majority of Cap fans adore it and even RSC said in the past that it's "good". (Though he also said it was nowhere near as great as most claimed.)
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 14, 2007 13:51:40 GMT -5
Oh, do yourself a favour- buy this book. Seriously. I know I like much that you don't, but an overwhelming majority of Cap fans adore it and even RSC said in the past that it's "good". (Though he also said it was nowhere near as great as most claimed.) It's not that I am opposed to reading it; more an issue of economics for me. See, what you should do is go over to the "TPB Recommendations" thread in the General section and post a review that would convince me to buy it  . |
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Post by redstatecap on Mar 14, 2007 20:52:36 GMT -5
Oh, do yourself a favour- buy this book. Seriously. I know I like much that you don't, but an overwhelming majority of Cap fans adore it and even RSC said in the past that it's "good". (Though he also said it was nowhere near as great as most claimed.) It's not that I am opposed to reading it; more an issue of economics for me. See, what you should do is go over to the "TPB Recommendations" thread in the General section and post a review that would convince me to buy it . Here's my evaluation of his book as a whole: I think Mr. Brubaker is generally an above-average writer, and in streaks a good writer. And I say that as a person that doesn't give praise lightly. Many so-called "professional" comic writers are hacks that can't write a plot that makes the barest amount of common sense. Mr. Brubaker is a cut above the average and several cuts above the true hacks, but it doesn't make him "great" in an absolute sense. He also has flashes where he is very average. While I've generally felt from the beginning that he "gets" Cap, there are moments that make me wonder. Cap #10 for example was an exceptionally poor comic that made me wonder if he really did get Cap. Often his plot points could use more careful thought and probably a rewrite. Several examples come to mind from the recent "21st Century Blitz" -- an arc that had tremendous potential but was rather sloppily executed. Overall I feel that the quality of the writing has declined somewhat since the early issues, perhaps because he's taken on too many books. On the positive side, he can write dialogue like Bendis wishes he could write dialogue. Cap "sounds" like he should sound. It's direct and devoid of the cutesy, formulaic banter that Bendis passes off as good writing. His plots usually (usually!) make good common sense. He makes the effort to bring in Cap's history. I've debated with him a number of times on Comicboards, and while we must agree to disagree on a lot, he was a good guy to talk to. He didn't take disagreement personally. The value of Mr. Epting to the title can't be understated. It's probably the best work of his career, and while he's still fairly weak on dynamic action, the book does look great. I think a fair amount of the credit given to Mr. Brubaker really should go to Mr. Epting. I won't lie and say I recommed this book to you DLW66, because I can't. Resurrecting Bucky was merely a symptom of the disease, just as "killing" Cap is a symptom of the same disease. Buy it, and you support the cause of the disease -- that is, Marvel's conscious decision to maximize short-term profit before all else. Whether Mr. Brubaker is a good writer or not, or a good guy or not, as far as I'm concerned he's complicit in implementing this decision. RSC |
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Post by uberwolf on Mar 15, 2007 18:51:35 GMT -5
I've given up on Marvel and have been happily ignorant of anything they've been doing lately. My best friend, who has never really had an interest in comics, sent me the CNN link concerning Cap's death along with this little note..
"what a bunch of crap. he's probably an al-queda sleeper writing the episodes.
cap would never do that. "
So I sent back my opinions of the people and writers driving Marvel Comics today. I won't post a copy of that because most of it would get censored. Here's his reply...
"Quesada is one letter away from being an anagram for al queda!!! I KNEW IT!!! "
Eh heh heh, we laughed. So then I came here to find out what was going on with the whole death of an icon thing. And so, after reading the posts here I'm just going to keep on ignoring the present day Marvel. There's plenty of back issues I missed that I'm tracking down.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Mar 15, 2007 21:51:34 GMT -5
Is anyone else having a hard time buying into the whole Cap dead thing? Even before reading 'the initiative' I just didn't buy it.
I keep flashing back to the John Walker turning Cap back over to Steve thing.
The only thing that comes to mind is "how long are they gonna wait to write him back to life?"
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Post by redstatecap on Mar 15, 2007 22:27:13 GMT -5
Is anyone else having a hard time buying into the whole Cap dead thing? Even before reading 'the initiative' I just didn't buy it. I keep flashing back to the John Walker turning Cap back over to Steve thing. The only thing that comes to mind is "how long are they gonna wait to write him back to life?" Yeah, I'm not too worked-up over it. Even if Cap really is "dead" and Mr. Brubaker intends to keep him that way for a while, in the end he will return. It was a business decision to kill him off, and it will be a business decision to bring him back. I am completely indifferent to it and I understand that I won't be buying Cap for a long time, which is fine with me. RSC |
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Post by balok on Mar 17, 2007 16:38:01 GMT -5
My guess would be they'll restore him to life within five years, and probably sooner rather than later. It may not happen until Brubaker leaves the book, or Quesada leaves the EIC chair, but it's certain.
The only question, really, is will the story do it justice?
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Post by Yellowjacket on Mar 19, 2007 9:37:38 GMT -5
I´d guess there´ll be two "returns".
One: the return of Steve Rogers as person and maybe as Nomad or another new character. This would have the nice side-effect of selling yet another book for Marvel, so it shouldn´t take ages.
I´ll take it as a strong hint, that it´s hawked that Rogers isn´t dead, only wounded.
Two: and then, someday, the return of Rogers as Captain America.
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Post by uberwolf on Mar 19, 2007 19:31:30 GMT -5
I'm wondering about the image of the Punisher-Cap that's been circulating. Frank Castle as the so called "New" Captain America until the original heals up, finds out what's been going on then totally kicks the crap out of Castle for desecrating his name and uniform. At least, that's what I'd like to see.
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Post by redstatecap on Mar 19, 2007 20:38:10 GMT -5
I predict that Cap will return shortly after President Bush leaves office, in order to make a meta political statement that Marvel will deny is a meta political statement. Pres. Bush's term is over in January 09, thus Cap's return could profitably be scheduled as the "big event crossover" of Summer '09.
RSC
Note: Post edited because I typed in the wrong year. But yeah Summer of 09 sounds about right. A little more than two years is long enough to make everyone think it's permanent, and then Marvel will spring the big-money return crossover that summer.
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Mar 20, 2007 0:30:54 GMT -5
uhhh... the election is in November 2008. Bush will hand over the reigns to the president elect in like the 3rd week of January 2009.
So, if we are waiting for that... then we are waiting for a while.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Mar 20, 2007 18:34:03 GMT -5
uhhh... the election is in November 2008. Bush will hand over the reigns to the president elect in like the 3rd week of January 2009. So, if we are waiting for that... then we are waiting for a while. Bush could leave office sooner. An American dream… |
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Mar 20, 2007 19:31:40 GMT -5
uhhh... the election is in November 2008. Bush will hand over the reigns to the president elect in like the 3rd week of January 2009. So, if we are waiting for that... then we are waiting for a while. Bush could leave office sooner. An American dream… I guess that would depend on who would take his place. |
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, but this issue is very emotional and shows the true angst of Cap in light of Bucky's death -- at this point 20 years past.
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