jkemble
Reservist Avenger
the Cosmic Frog
Posts: 243
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Post by jkemble on Nov 29, 2006 14:47:24 GMT -5
now that Beyond is almost over, does anyone have any thoughts on the Beyonder in general?
personally, I liked him, but I also liked Secret Wars 2 and hunted down and read all the cross-over issues. I liked Secret Wars 1 and am enjoying Beyond (wow, Pym in the last issue...)
I'm really not even sure what happened to the Beyonder after Secret Wars 2, but I think I can understand why everyone throws barbs at Bendis after he shang-hai'd the Secret Wars name for his own typical cloak and dagger spy schtick. Never read it, no intrest (unless I can get it banned...) how that for closed mindedness?
thanks for any thoughts!
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Post by Doctor Bong on Nov 29, 2006 15:00:52 GMT -5
I stopped buying it...
Can you fill me in on what's going on, jkemble?
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jkemble
Reservist Avenger
the Cosmic Frog
Posts: 243
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Post by jkemble on Nov 29, 2006 16:53:43 GMT -5
I'll sum it up, so, you know...
SPOILERS --- SPOILERS --- SPOILERS
hope that's far enough...
okay, heros are abducted from all over; spider-man, wasp, hank pym and venom to name a few key players, they are transported into deep space and a voice claiming to be teh Beyonder offers them the old "destroy your enemies and get everything you desire" wager. eventually make their way to battle world from the first secret wars, where they survive a crash landing. spider-man is actually a space phantom, actually the talking stick from way early on in avengers history (circa: Celestia Madonna, Origin of Vision, Legion of the Undead) that guided thor thru time and explained the origin of the vision. the space phantom then escapes into limbo, but pym tracks him and creates a portal to limbo, and the whole team enters, while they are waiting, venom destroys the portal and they are trapped in limbo. but they get out and face venom, everything looks good, and then Hank Pym snaps and shoots everybody.
I did leave out quit a bit, so it still should be a good read if interested. (I didn't spoil too much)
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Post by dlw66 on Nov 29, 2006 17:33:40 GMT -5
I was never a big Beyonder fan, but then I've stated elsewhere that I am no lover of the company-wide crossover events.
My beef with the Beyonder was that he was allegedly SO powerful that he was like a god. Well where does that fit in with the Elders of the Universe and Marvel's various mythological pantheons (the Asgardians, the Olympians, the Egyptians, etc.)? I just felt he was a throwaway character -- with Galactus, Ego, Infinity, et. al, why did they need the Beyonder? When you think about it, that the FF alone has always been able to thwart Galactus is a pretty silly premise...
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Post by Doctor Bong on Nov 29, 2006 20:37:10 GMT -5
Thank you, jkemble!
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Post by Doctor Bong on Nov 29, 2006 20:37:57 GMT -5
He shot the Wasp...  |
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Nov 30, 2006 9:57:51 GMT -5
Wow that sounds exciting. If they package that into a tpb, I might have to get it. I loved the first Secret Wars. That 12-issue series was one of the best years of my comic book reading life. The character of the Beyonder was fine as a plot element in that story just to make it happen, but he's totally uninteresting to me as a character. Secret Wars II was tedious and boring. I hated the Beyonder character in that. He's fine as a plot device, but not as a character. Once they made him a character, I just wanted him to go away.
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Post by Engage on Nov 30, 2006 13:30:27 GMT -5
I was never a big Beyonder fan, but then I've stated elsewhere that I am no lover of the company-wide crossover events. My beef with the Beyonder was that he was allegedly SO powerful that he was like a god. Well where does that fit in with the Elders of the Universe and Marvel's various mythological pantheons (the Asgardians, the Olympians, the Egyptians, etc.)? I just felt he was a throwaway character -- with Galactus, Ego, Infinity, et. al, why did they need the Beyonder? When you think about it, that the FF alone has always been able to thwart Galactus is a pretty silly premise... Didn't the Beyonder actually turn out to be a component of a Cosmic Cube along with the Molecule Man? That might not be a good place in the Marvel Universe but I always thought it was a pretty good explanation. |
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Post by dlw66 on Nov 30, 2006 13:37:12 GMT -5
You know, that rings a bell -- seems it happened in an issue of the Avengers in an epilogue to Secret Wars II. Molecule Man had a giantess of a girlfriend if I recall. The Surfer might have been in that story, too...
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Nov 30, 2006 13:45:19 GMT -5
I remember that story with Molecule Man, his girlfriend named Titania, and the Silver Surfer. I didn't remember the part about the cosmic cube though.
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Post by dlw66 on Nov 30, 2006 14:23:53 GMT -5
This is the book I'm talking about -- am I right that this explained the Beyonder?  |
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Nov 30, 2006 15:24:21 GMT -5
No, that issue did not explain the Beyonder... that came somewhere else, and I believe I remember reading something about the Cosmic Cube business somewhere as well... maybe on Marvel's website.
The issue you remember was one of my all time favorites, just because of the scale of the danger. Basically the Beyonder had made some sort of deathstroke at Earth, and there was a massive global gash in the planet.
The issue basically consisted of the Avengers trying to close up the gash, getting the Silver Surfer to try and do it with the power Cosmic... but he didn't have enough power to bring back more than a small landbridge that didn't last very long. They had to convince the Molecule Man to allow the Surfer to cosmically power him so that he could reassemble the planet's scattered molecules... of course, the risk being that he could lose his powers, or even die if the Surfer decided to push him past his limits to complete the job.
They obviously were successful, and the Molecule Man feigned the loss of his powers, which Surfer agreed to keep his secret for doing such a noble deed as risking his life to save the Earth.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Dec 9, 2006 17:47:01 GMT -5
My beef with the Beyonder was that he was allegedly SO powerful that he was like a god. Well where does that fit in with the Elders of the Universe and Marvel's various mythological pantheons (the Asgardians, the Olympians, the Egyptians, etc.)? I just felt he was a throwaway character -- with Galactus, Ego, Infinity, et. al, why did they need the Beyonder? Well, he was a throwaway character or at least a specific-plot-device character. Since he was, in his original backstory, not even from the Marvel Universe (hence his name), it makes sense that he wouldn’t fit into Marvel’s established cosmology. I think that for the Secret Wars story, substituting an established MU super-super-character would likely not work. In short, I feel that, in the context of the original series, the Beyonder was an appropriate creation. I’ll get to my thoughts on his usage after the original Secret Wars after this…
Didn't the Boyonder actually turn out to be a component of a Cosmic Cube along with the Molecule Man? That might not be a good place in the Marvel Universe but I always thought it was a pretty good explanation. You know, that rings a bell -- seems it happened in an issue of the Avengers in an epilogue to Secret Wars II. Molecule Man had a giantess of a girlfriend if I recall. The Surfer might have been in that story, too... I remember that story with Molecule Man, his girlfriend named Titania, and the Silver Surfer. I didn't remember the part about the cosmic cube though. Toneloc did an excellent job of summarizing Avengers #266, and I have exalted him for it. The Molecule Man’s girlfriend was not the 6′6″ Titania but rather her longtime friend Volcana, who at 6′5″ nevertheless towered over the 5′7″ Molecule Man. (All heights are from OHOTMU Deluxe Edition.) The revised origin of the Beyonder, tying him and the Molecule Man to a Cosmic Cube, come from (drum roll, please) “Secret Wars 3”, in Fantastic Four #319, wherein the B and the MM were joined into a new Cube. Eventually the Molecule Man emerged as a distinct individual once more, and the Beyonder was reborn as a female entity originally called Kosmos but now known as the Maker.
I appreciate Steve Englehart’s attempt (in the aforementioned FF issue) to tie the Beyonder into various pieces of Marvel history—but I don’t like it. It deflates the grandeur of the original concept. Ideally, the character should have served its purpose in the first Secret Wars and been left alone. That said, I don’t mind much his return in Secret Wars II—despite various problems (the uninspired artwork, the excessive tie-ins…), I feel the character was generally well used as a device to explore both the Marvel Universe and various philosophical ideas, and the limited series closed with a definitive ending for the character. Well, definitive until FF #319. Since then, Kosmos/the Maker hasn’t shown up a lot, but I feel the character has been dragged out far “beyond” its useful life.
The Beyond! limited series has now concluded, and I am satisfied with this little jaunt. Fans of Marvel’s traditional cosmology may generally be pleased—especially if they are also fans of Quasar’s old series. |
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Post by Doctor Bong on Dec 10, 2006 0:06:07 GMT -5
And for the benefit of those of us who stopped buying it, would any good soul tell us what was the conclusion...? Was it, indeed, the original Beyonder, or some other different being altogether...? And if it really was him, what were his motivations & what was the conclusion & the consequences (if any...) of the adventure...?
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Post by The Night Phantom on Dec 10, 2006 8:46:10 GMT -5
Ua2, I would recommend picking up the issues that you missed or else February’s hardcover edition. But if you must be spoilerized now…
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WARNING: SPOILER ALERT!!!
Picking up from Jkemble’s summary: in #6, Uatu the Watcher observes as Hank Pym is granted his desires by the voice of the Beyonder. Hank requests three wishes, the first two being to be returned to Earth and to know who the “Beyonder” really is (Hank doesn’t believe for a moment that it’s the true Beyonder from Secret Wars). The impostor almost immediately fulfills the second wish, revealing himself to be…the Stranger. He relates that he had somehow observed the events of the original Secret Wars and came to salvage its Battleworld upon its apparent destruction in the Thing’s series, all for the purpose of studying the rather powerful, dangerous people of Earth. Hank then reveals his third wish: the Stranger must stop his experimentation and never take it up again. It is then revealed that Hank didn’t disintegrate his fellow Earth people; he merely shrank them to fool the “Beyonder”. Once Hank restores them to normal size, the Stranger refuses to be bound by his promise to continue granting Hank his wishes (since Hank’s slaying his enemies was a precondition). The Stranger continues to pontificate on the importance of his experiments and their role in the grand cosmic scheme, and finally a battle breaks out between him and all the assembled Earthers. The Watcher continues to observe, and the Stranger makes some deductions from this, finally ending the battle and agreeing to end the experimentation and provide transportation home. This last point is tricky, with the Earthers having to hurry to their transportation before the planet breaks up for good, and Gravity sacrifices his life in the effort. Back on Earth, the survivors and his loved ones attend his funeral (his identity no longer secret), and Uatu’s narration reveals that Gravity has a “profound destiny whose influence has only just begun” and that his death, as will soon be discovered, “is far from the end of his story”.
SPOILER ALERT CANCELED.
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Modified: corrected a verb tense.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Dec 10, 2006 13:14:57 GMT -5
Uuummm.... Thank you very much, Night Phantom...
I wonder if Freedom Ring will be as lucky; and speaking about him, IMO, that's one of the most horrendous codenames I've ever seen...!
Who created Gravity, by the way...?
On another note, is nice to know Hank found a niche to shine (even with the Wasp's being around...! So much for saying that if he's by her side Jan will inevitably eclipse him...!), albeit a short-lived one, but I guess, in the MU, scientists-turned superheroes-who can't seem to make up their minds about who they are can't be choosers...!!!
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Post by The Night Phantom on Dec 10, 2006 13:31:12 GMT -5
Uuummm.... Thank you very much, Night Phantom... You’re welcome! According to the credits in Gravity #1, writer Sean McKeever and penciler Mike Norton are his creators. |
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Post by thew40 on Dec 10, 2006 14:36:57 GMT -5
I appreciate Steve Englehart’s attempt (in the aforementioned FF issue) to tie the Beyonder into various pieces of Marvel history—but I don’t like it. It deflates the grandeur of the original concept. Ideally, the character should have served its purpose in the first Secret Wars and been left alone. That said, I don’t mind much his return in Secret Wars II—despite various problems (the uninspired artwork, the excessive tie-ins…), I feel the character was generally well used as a device to explore both the Marvel Universe and various philosophical ideas, and the limited series closed with a definitive ending for the character. Well, definitive until FF #319. Since then, Kosmos/the Maker hasn’t shown up a lot, but I feel the character has been dragged out far “beyond” its useful life.
Couldn't agree with all this more, to be honest. I've always felt the same way about the Beyond -- that he was overused after "Secret Wars," despite the interesting ideas in "Secret War 2." ~W~ |
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Post by uberwolf on Dec 10, 2006 18:27:43 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, the Beyonder was from another universe. In fact he WAS another universe, with all the power of it, kind of like a sentient universe. I forgot what caused the breach into the Marvel Universe that enabled him to view and eventually come through and mess with everyone.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Dec 10, 2006 22:01:23 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, the Beyonder was from another universe. In fact he WAS another universe, with all the power of it, kind of like a sentient universe. I forgot what caused the breach into the Marvel Universe that enabled him to view and eventually come through and mess with everyone. The original concept had the Beyonder being an entire universe unto itself. Secret Wars II revealed that it was the transformation of Owen Reece into the Molecule Man that led the Beyonder to his awareness of the Marvel Universe. At the end of Secret Wars II, the Beyonder was shunted into and became a new universe. FF #319 revised the Beyonder’s and the Molecule Man’s origin: essentially, the extradimensional energies that form Cosmic Cubes leaked into our dimension (well, Earth-616’s) at Owen Reece’s nuclear accident, with part of the leaked energy transforming Reece and the rest forming the being that became known as the Beyonder. |
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Post by Doctor Bong on Dec 10, 2006 23:24:25 GMT -5
But aren't there supposed to be a whole race of Beyonders, as well, who actually are what the original one was thought to be, that is, near-omnipotent beings...?
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Post by The Night Phantom on Dec 11, 2006 18:20:02 GMT -5
But aren't there supposed to be a whole race of Beyonders, as well, who actually are what the original one was thought to be, that is, near-omnipotent beings...? That subject is also discussed in FF #319. They are also extradimensional and cannot interact with normal space directly. But they wish to benevolently aid evolution of “our” space. It is they who, in service of this goal, make Cosmic Cubes possible. |
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Post by The Night Phantom on Dec 16, 2006 11:32:30 GMT -5
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Post by Shiryu on Dec 16, 2006 20:03:37 GMT -5
I hope this doesn't mean we'll see the Hood as a NA !
Regarding Beyond, I was a bit disappointed by the overall ending, but I liked the Watcher final statement. Sounded promising.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 15, 2007 18:28:57 GMT -5
Wasn't he just part of that universe, along with Molocule man? Anyhow, I just pulled this thread up (see DLW I can listen  , no staying after class for me) I just got finished reading that Nebula run in the Avengers. Where after all the fighting and planning, he shows up with those HUGE shoulderpads and the Jeri-Curl hairdo and zaps her off to another galaxy, earning the anger of the Avengers and the Skrulls. Not that it mattered much to him. |
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 15, 2007 18:37:33 GMT -5
Another character who's been, IMO, overretconned & tinkered with...
Seems some writers weren't happy with this nigh-omnipotent guy & after some rewritings of his history, although still extremely powerful, he's now but a shadow og the guy who singlehandedly defeated with little effort all the Major Cosmic Players (including the Living Tribunal...!!!).
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 15, 2007 18:38:46 GMT -5
... that is, he defeated their combined might...
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 15, 2007 18:40:56 GMT -5
Loved the original concept of the character even though, of course, he only worked in certain situations, due to his lack of limitations...
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 15, 2007 19:10:54 GMT -5
One of my favorite things was when he was on the boat with all the bikini babes and he was the fat Beyonder. They kept telling him how cute he was while he was fat, but he knew they were lying. Then he just absorbed all his fat. I always wish I could do that. |
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Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 15, 2007 21:59:17 GMT -5
Wasn't he just part of that universe, along with Molocule man? I’m not sure what you mean. Above I’ve already described the origin(s) of the Beyonder. When the Beyonder became a new universe in Secret Wars II #9, he was everything there—the Molecule Man stayed behind. In FF #319, the Beyonder and the Molecule Man were combined into a new being called Kosmos. The Molecule Man later got separated out, and the Beyonder’s essence is now known as the Maker. |
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, no staying after class for me)