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Post by bobc on Sept 29, 2006 17:33:03 GMT -5
Hey Guys
I have an interesting discussion topic that really got some of the guys I work with going yesterday, and here it is:
What can be done with Thor to make him attractive or viable with readers today? Nobody can deny that Thor is a HUGE Marvel icon, one of the mainstays, but Thor as a comic has been cancelled several times for low sales, and no writer seems to know what to do with him. Soooo how would you cahnge him? And don't get all crankypants over changing a tried and true character, because what I'm asking here is would you emphasize his super heroeness, or would you focus more on the Godly angle? Would you stage stories more in Asgard, or would you make him a more aminstream superhero who spent most of his time on earth? He's been presented both ways so nobody can complain about either presentation going against his history.
I will say that I liked Thor best when he had the Warriors Three, Balder and Sif as a supporting cast, but he still spent a lot of time on Earth (I liked the early 70's years when Buscema did him). I liked the more super heroey Thor.
What would you do with Thor?
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Post by dlw66 on Sept 29, 2006 19:06:45 GMT -5
Personally I enjoyed the Tales of Asgard stories, the battles between the gods of Asgard vs. Olympus, the Egyptian gods, etc. Cosmic stories involving Galactus, etc. were very cool. I preferred the grandeur of the landscapes and the whole "universe is in the balance" intensity of the old Kirby stories. While I have no problem with the stories bob mentions (which I cut my Midgardian teeth on), I just like the outworld stories a little better.
These might appeal to today's fans of sword and sorcery, magic, et al.
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Post by Shiryu on Sept 30, 2006 12:03:09 GMT -5
I'd like a super-hero Thor for awhile, stuck on Midgard (Earth) for some reason (which is not a punishment from Odin !), but the problem with that is finding villains strong enough to be a mach for him without things becoming cosmic in scale.
As alternative, I'd like a Thor wandering in the universe, like he did with the Recorder waaay back in the Kirby days.
Asgard is, of couse, his home, but it has been explored a lot recently, with Ragnarock and stories before that.
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Post by bobc on Sept 30, 2006 14:06:07 GMT -5
Yeah that is a problem shiryu--finding villains strong enough to challenge him. BUT I think a writer with a little imagination could solve this problem. What about an Avengers storyline where someone like Zemo or Loki organizes an attack on him, the way he did with Hercules? After all, Thor is vulnerable to sonic attacks, mental attacks, sorcery and mega-strong physical attacks. He's also been hypnotized many times.
The Avengers have had members over the years who were in Thor's ballpark power-wise (Hulk, Hercules, Wonderman, ect) but none of those people were seen as unbeatable or even head and shoulders above the others. Even in Civil War this week, Hercules is part of the average pack of superheroes, and Thor comes in and knocks the crap out of all of them. I would certainly give Thor the nod over Hercules if push came to shove, but I wonder why Hercules isn't seen as very close in terms of raw power.
As far as Thor's history is concerned, the storyline that I recall being the most exciting ever was when he and the the Silver Surfer fought Durok The demolisher (I think that was his name). Now that was an epic, exciting battle!!!
I like Thor being more superhero than God in presentation.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Sept 30, 2006 17:00:16 GMT -5
bobc, perhaps the answer to your questions is that, at some point during the 90's, Zeus removed Hercules' immortality... (and, so far, I believe, he hasn't given it back to the Lion of Olympus.). If I'm not mistaken, I think it was explained that, as a result, part of his godly power was lost as well.
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Post by Shiryu on Sept 30, 2006 17:11:40 GMT -5
I don't know if it is still the case, but during the battle with the Exemplars in V3, Hercules mentioned not being immortal anymore, and having only 50% of his strenght and godly powers.
Moreover, Thor is not just strong, but also has all the powers of the storm (hurricanes, rain, lightnings), which all the others you mentioned don't possess, so this is probably what gives him the invincible aura he often seems to have.
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Post by bobc on Oct 1, 2006 9:14:51 GMT -5
True--all true. But even if Hercules has been stripped of some of his power, Wonder Man was created to go head to head with any of the Avengers and he has never been written as even close to Thor, power-wise. The Sub-Mariner's pretty close too. Well sort of.
Okay so we know Thor's one of the toughest superheroes out there, so why has his popularity floundered? Is it the Old English venacular? Does it seem corny these days?
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 1, 2006 11:35:46 GMT -5
bobc: I suspect that there has been a covert operation at Marvel recently to depower Wonder Man somewhat... I mean, even before the new "Mighty Avengers" hits the stores, for once that happens apparently they're REALLY gonna depower him, judging from the previews we've seen... But I'm talking of his current state... I used the word "covert" just because, unlike Hercules' case, as far as I know, nobody has come out & said it or offered any kind of explanation but, like you said, Wonder Man originally was supposed to hit "as hard as Thor's hammer", and throughout most of his career he was continually counted among the greatest "heavy hitters" at Marvel, and yet recently I've noticed this quiet movement at Marvel to make him somwhat less powerful; perhaps some writer/s or editor decided he shouldn't be too powerful...? For example, the 'Marvel Encyclopedia" gives him just 6 points of strength, which would make him roughly as strong as She-Hulk & Iron Man, who have the same strength score... and I believe I've seen other manuals were he was comparably rated... Now, I think we would all agree that doesn't seem right... but there you have it.
Regarding Thor's faltering popularity through the years, I believe that, even though from time to time he had inspired writers who wrote original & interesting stories for him, there were just too many large tracts in between of ho-hum or "sameo-sameo" stories... Large periods of time, just like in a soap opera, where nothing was really going on & you could leave the mag for a couple of years & then return & see that nothing had changed, everything was still the same....
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 1, 2006 16:29:28 GMT -5
Concerning Wonder Man, I would like to see the whole "ionically powered" bit go by the wayside and a return to just a plain old Simon Williams. I know the history of said Simon accounts to one issue total, but I really didn't care for the form he assumed throughout Vol. III.
Marvel uses those power scales now, don't they? Back when the Handbook was first being published (Vol. I and II in the mid-80's), the true heavy hitters were described as having "Class 100" strength, or the ability to lift 100 tons.
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Post by Shiryu on Oct 1, 2006 16:35:42 GMT -5
Mah, handbooks have been weird before. I think Hank Pym was given only "normal" intelligence in 2004, and he is the world's best in biochemistry.
If he is normal, what are we ?
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Post by The Night Phantom on Oct 1, 2006 19:26:09 GMT -5
Mah, handbooks have been weird before. I think Hank Pym was given only "normal" intelligence in 2004, and he is the world's best in biochemistry. Maybe if you balance his genius in biochemistry against his boneheadedness in other areas (e.g., creating a psychopathic murdering machine…more than once), he averages out as “normal”.  |
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Post by asgardian on Oct 20, 2006 1:57:22 GMT -5
Thor still has followers. Check out this entry on Wikipedia (I wrote some of it): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_%28Marvel_Comics%29Re: Thor's power, in this mostly well-written age of storytelling, only the Asgardian monsters (eg. the Destroyer; Mangog; Fafnir: Surtur; Ymir; World Serpent etc) and truly great cosmic villains (eg. Thanos) can really challenge him. Now that he's in Endgame form, Thor is omnipotent and beyond even them... |
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Post by The Night Phantom on Oct 22, 2006 4:14:39 GMT -5
Thor still has followers. Was this meant in a religious sense? |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 22, 2006 16:20:20 GMT -5
Hmm, it's a dilemna indeed. The problem is, while emphasising the Super Hero connection might garner better sales, there's only so far it can go- very few villains can really stand up to Thor. And the mystical side of things works, but normally causes low sales and interest. During the 2001-2004 or so era it might have been interesting to promote it's similarites to LotR and the like in the genre, but with that interest fading it's no longer such a viable option. I think that Thor should be more firmly grounded in real life, earthly problems and villains... which would necessitate a way to neutralise his massive advantage over villains. Or they could put him against Doom, the only super-villain truly worthy of him |
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Post by Tana Nile on Oct 22, 2006 22:33:03 GMT -5
Or they could put him against Doom, the only super-villain truly worthy of him Ah, reminds me of Thor 182-183...awesome story! ;D |
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BigDuke
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 136
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Post by BigDuke on Oct 26, 2006 14:24:38 GMT -5
My memory may be fuzzy, but did our current Blonde Locked Thor not find evidence of a prior Asgard, complete with Red Headed Thor that was consumed in Ragnarok?
Now if I have gleaned information correctly, has Asgard not recently gone through a Ragnarok of sorts again?
Perhaps this is a bit too "Matrixy" but why not have Odin reform a new Asgard in some way, based on the original myths. The Asgardians could have been secreted away in some mortal vessel until such time as Odin was able to reconstitute Asgards existence.
The new Thor could be the merger of himself and his mortal shell (Dr Don Blake?) on the path to becoming the mighty warrior he once was. This would give us old timers something we (I) used to like about the character (the secret identity) and it would be an opportunity to (temporarily) ramp his power to a level that Midgard villains would be competitive with Thor.
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Oct 26, 2006 16:15:01 GMT -5
I could get into that -- maybe he could go on a quest to find other prominent Asgardians living all around the world in their own mortal shells. Or maybe he could just run into them now and again, and eventually somehow Asgard is born anew.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 26, 2006 21:31:36 GMT -5
Actually, don't look now, but I think a very similar concept was excuted some years ago....
During the long gone but never missed days of "Heroes Reborn", Thor's book reverted to the name "Journey into Mystery", with a subtitle that, If I'm not mistaken, was "The Lost Gods". All of the asgardians, except Thor, became humans & lost their memories for a while....
Eternals, anyone...?
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Post by curtisjamm on Nov 14, 2006 22:07:29 GMT -5
Yeah that is a problem shiryu--finding villains strong enough to challenge him. BUT I think a writer with a little imagination could solve this problem. What about an Avengers storyline where someone like Zemo or Loki organizes an attack on him, the way he did with Hercules? After all, Thor is vulnerable to sonic attacks, mental attacks, sorcery and mega-strong physical attacks. He's also been hypnotized many times. The Avengers have had members over the years who were in Thor's ballpark power-wise (Hulk, Hercules, Wonderman, ect) but none of those people were seen as unbeatable or even head and shoulders above the others. Even in Civil War this week, Hercules is part of the average pack of superheroes, and Thor comes in and knocks the crap out of all of them. I would certainly give Thor the nod over Hercules if push came to shove, but I wonder why Hercules isn't seen as very close in terms of raw power. As far as Thor's history is concerned, the storyline that I recall being the most exciting ever was when he and the the Silver Surfer fought Durok The demolisher (I think that was his name). Now that was an epic, exciting battle!!! I like Thor being more superhero than God in presentation. Where can I get my hands on the issue or book that you refer to wherein Thor knocks the crap out of some group? "Civil War?" Is that another series? Thanks! |
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Post by The Night Phantom on Nov 15, 2006 21:34:15 GMT -5
Where can I get my hands on the issue or book that you refer to wherein Thor knocks the crap out of some group? "Civil War?" Is that another series? is a currently running limited series with numerous crossovers and tie-ins. At the end of issue #3, Thor showed up at a battleground; the actual battle took place in #4. However, it turned out that Thor was not the Thor but some sort of robo-clone created by Tony Stark, Reed Richards, and Hank Pym. |
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Post by bobc on Nov 18, 2006 18:11:38 GMT -5
Hey did you all ever read Alan Moore's Top Ten, which was about a police department on a planet where every person has super-powers? It was AWESOME. So many comic references, it was mind-boggling. The reason I bring it up, is there is one story where a rookie cop gets called to a bar to investigate a murder--and as it turns out, this bar is populated by Asgardians!! Loki is hanging out at the bar and uses some sneaky magic to kill Balder, who was playing darts! Odin throws a hissy fit and is so insane with grief that he wants to bring down ragnorrak, as the cops tries to calm him down! Then Balder just gets up and is suddenly alive again--and the cop finds out this same Balder death scene has been playing on an endless loop for centuries in that same bar!! The whole thing is like a never ending religious allegory!
Absolutely brilliant writing. Rookie cops always get sent to that "crime scene" as a prank on them!
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ozbot
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 103
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Post by ozbot on Nov 19, 2006 18:43:14 GMT -5
If you aren't going to play Marvel Ultimate alliance, you are missing out on some brilliantly-realized scenes in Asgard. I was never really all that impressed with tales of Asgard and would be just fine with Thor off a memebership line up. But I was really taken with the scenes in Asgard in the game. I liked the scope and mythic scale of the environment and the creatures. I liked haveing the mixture of old runes and grassy knolls with star-filled space. If they would combine this old-world and futuristic world with an artistic sense like this, then i can see appreciating a Thor comic more. (Although how can you do this and still keep in grounded on Earth? I mean, they did stuff like that already, right, with Thor and Nobilius and Rigilllians and the Black Galaxy and Tarene and what not. So maybe I just liked the 3-D art of it all.)
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