Kang Dynasty; Best of Busiek?

[Doctor Doom]

I posted this on CBR a while ago but was hesitant to post it here because.... well, I know I'll get taken apart for this and find no-one who agrees Nevertheless, here I go.

Now we all know there are some stories which eveyrone regards as some of the best- Avengers Under Siege. The Kree/Skrull War.

Busiek's run is up there among the best, if not THE best, and is remembered as such. When hearing people talk of Busiek's run, I ALWAYS hear them talk about Ultron Unlimited above all else, as though it were the only story he wrote.

But personally, my favourite Avengers storyline under Busiek ever is NONE of his early ones. I have heard no-one else express this opinion, so I wanted to throw in my two cents. I genuinely believe that The Kang Dynasty was the best Avengers story Busiek wrote.

Yes, it was very drawn-out and at the time quite annoying to read a cliffhanger and not find it resolved until 2 months later, with the intervening months spent in side stories. But I love it nonetheless- when read all together it is fantastic. It establishes Kang as an INCREDIBLY effective villain- his destruction of Washington is just plain chilling, a MONUMENTAL 'Nuff Said issue (Thor falling to his knees and howling to the sky in despair...) and the entire first half is brilliant, with subtle character moments like the Thor/firebird relationship and the Wanda/Simon dynamic- not to mention thor's incredible display of power.

But it's the latter issues which make it above the rest to me. I literally had absoloutely NO idea how on Earth the Avengers were going to get out of their situation after #49, which is a rare and brilliant thing. When they staged the fightback and were foiled, I was hanging on every page. I really began to wonder if Kang held all the cars.

When we got the BRILLIANT ending of issue 52 (Now you miserable little jacked-up Tin Hitler.... let's End this!") I could not WAIT until the next issue, in an anticipation state I can't even remember having before or since (except for my anticipation of Civil War 3 and 4) The battle in issue 53 was so memorable it really felt as though the Avengers were doing everything possible to battle Kang, with the awesome climatic space confrontation. 54 was a perfect wrap-up- Busiek had an astonishing handle on Kang, and the way he killed his son because of his 'betrayal' was chilling. I was a little disappointed at the one-page Kang/Cap battle though. And 55 was a touching end- especially the final few pages where the heroes leave the party to join the Washington Memorial.

So to wrap up, I genuinely feel that the Kang Dynasty is not only BETTER than Ultron Unlimited, but it is up there with the best Avengers stories ever. I know many people don't like it, so I just wanted to offer my opinion and see if anyone else agrees?

<winces and crouches in bunker>

Thoughts?

[thew40]

A great story, I agree. I thought it was bogged down a little with the whole Triune subplot, which really hurt the story and prevented it from being as great as it could be. But the idea of Kang conquering the Earth the way he did was fantastic.

I wouldn't say it was the best of Busiek's run, but it was certainly up there.

I wish we had seen more of the ramifications of the events of "Kang Dynasty" in Marvel Universe proper, but it seems it's just now getting some attention paid to it (mentioned here and there in the "Civil War" tie-ins).

~W~

[imperiusrex]

had it been blessed with alan davis' artwork throughout I might tend to agree, but the inconsistency made it painful at times. I wouldn't have minded a great different artist on the story, but manuel garcia just didn't do anything for me. I enjoyed Kieron Dywer too, but those middle issues are just kind of ugly (to me) and art can make or break how I enjoy a comic.
Actually I think the issue where Simon and Vision come to realize how similar they are, have a little brawl and quote Pogo is the most effective Busiek issue. It made me care about the love triangle more than anyone has in twenty years. And it made me care about the Vision again. I didn't want him to go away at the end of that issue. That's effective stuff...

[dlw66]

An admirable review of a very good story, one of the more memorable arcs in Avengers Vol. III. However, and you knew this was coming, Doom, you write with a short past. I'd encourage you to check out the writing tenures of Roy Thomas on the Avengers, as well as Steve Englehart. Some things grow better with age.

And to somewhat echo what Rex said, art is more of a driving force in my opinion than writing. A fantastic story can be done in with poor art; a mediocre story can be lifted by the likes of a John Buscema, Neal Adams, George Perez -- the masters.

[Doctor Doom]

Knew it was coming, dlw66, stll doesn't mean I have to agree I specifically said that this story was the best of BUSIEK, which I do have a right to judge since I have the whole run. It's true I can't say whether it was one of the best stories ever- I expressed that opinion purely because many people place Busiek's run as one of the best and indeed, Ultron Unlimited is usually mentioned alongside Avengers Under Siege or the Kree/Skrull War.

But on another topic you mentioned- I disagree again. I think story is FAR, FAR more important than art. While there are a small number of artists who I will put more consideration into buying a book for (Perez, McNiven, Weringo) there are a good few writers who I WILL buy a book for, no matter who the artist.

I'll put it like this:
I'd buy a Liefield-drawn comic written by Waid or Millar, but I wouldn't buy an Austen-written comic drawn by George Perez.

[dlw66]

docdoom said:

Busiek's run is up there among the best, if not THE best, and is remembered as such.

No, you didn't say "it" was among Busiek's best, you said that Busiek's run was possibly the best. I merely retorted that you as a young'un may not be qualified to make such a statement. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but speaking from the present without an accurate view of history clouds one's judgement.

As to expecting to get hammered over your post, I don't think you did, nor should you. As I stated, it was a nice review of a very good story. Busiek is in my top 5 Avengers scribes, but not who I think of first when I reflect on the team's history and lore.

We've had the artist/writer debate earlier (see a poll elsewhere on the boards). I will stick to my guns that comics are a visual medium, and the two major selling points of a book are the cover and the art. It has only been in the past few years that Marvel and DC have begun putting the names of the creative team on the cover; prior to that it was often the potential buyer's first impression of a leaf-through as to whether or not they would purchase a book.

No writer is getting me to put down $3 for Liefeld art. Won't do it...

[Doctor Doom]

Ah, sorry.

Yes, whether Busiek's run is among the best is of course, up to people's discretions and I have not read enough to be qualified to make such a statement, so I shouuld not have. Iapologize.

And I guess I should have remembered that this is AA, not CBR or Newsarama, so I wouldn't get smashed into oblivion for making a post which did not reflect the opinion of the majority. (Actually, on Newsarama you can get smashed for making a post which DOES reflect said opinion, but anyway.)

As to Artist/Writer- each to his own.

(And only Waid or Millar could get me to shell out cash for Liefield art. POSSIBLY Brubaker. Not even Busiek. )

[dlw66]

Doomsie -- the writer/artist poll is on page 3 under the General section. As you'll see, I am in the definite minority on art over writing. There are some very good comments in the thread -- feel free to jump in and get it back on the front page for some of you newbies to chew on!

[imperiusrex]

while I don't think the story is wholly dependent on art, it is a factor. for example during one point when Thor is losing it over Captain America's supposed demise during the Kang storyline, I remember Garcia's art being very flat, both dimension wise and emotion wise. He also didn't have a capacity to create mood to my eye. As a result the story, however good doesn't have much impact. Most of the truly classic comics often have very good artwork to great artwork. Not to be mean, but how many "great" comics have a Joe Staton, Al Milgrom or other workhorses on pencils who aren't thought of as "greats", but still otherwise turn in a professional competent job?
I think if the story had gone directly from Davis to Dywer, I would esteem it higher. As it stands, It's merely pretty good...

[Shiryu]

Nice question.
I really enjoyed Kang Dynasty throughout most of it, even though the art's inconsistency was annoying at times (if Alan Davis or Perez had done it all, it would have been up there among the stars). I especially enjoyed the Davis issues, the final issues (from Counterattack onwards) and the 'nuff said issue (I didn't like any other 'nuff said issue in general, but this one was good IMO).
That being said, for me the best of Busiek is Ultron Unlimited, but this is a fair second

[Yellowjacket]

shiryu said:

the 'nuff said issue (I didn't like any other 'nuff said issue in general, but this one was good IMO).

Yeah, that one was really good, best one I read, too. As far as I remember it was the only one where the art really "spoke".