Anytime, anyplace stories

[dlw66]

Subject: Alex Ross' Liberty and Justice tabloid-size graphic novel and Justice maxi-series.

Ross has been allowed to take his visions of iconic DC characters and tell his stories, outside of continuity as just "anytime" stories. Wouldn't it be great if Marvel did the same thing? Think of the possibilities -- any team of Avengers could be picked without fear of disruption and just some good ol' fashioned fun could be told.

[Black Knight]

I think that would be a great idea, very similar to JLA Classified and JSA Classified, or Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight. All three of these comics are any era. Marvel should steal this idea and use it for Spidey, the Avengers and the FF.

[von Bek]

It would be a great idea to have an Untold Tales of the Avengers book. There were so many different teams over the years that I would like to see how different creators would handle them.

Can you imagine Cap´s Kooky Quartet by Brubaker and Epting or Harras' Avengers by Kirkman and Kollins?

[Black Knight]

That is what I am talking about, it would be great, and classic Avengers fans would get there fix.

[von Bek]

Fans of any era of the Avengers would be satisfied, or at least it would be interesting to see creators with different aproaches handling (for example) the late 60´s Thomas Avengers.

[dlw66]

I really liked the old Classic X-Men series that had the reprint, then a supplemental, backdrop kind of story by Claremont (the name of the artist escapes me, but he was good!).

I suppose back in the day Marvel Fanfare sort of fit this bill, although it became largely a new talent try-out book, or an avenue for minor-league characters.

I would like to see new ideas, too. Maybe some mix-and-match stories. What if Galactus attacks and the FF aren't home? What if the Avengers have to go into the Negative Zone? How about a Kang vs. Doom across time?

[Black Knight]

The comic you suggest woudl great as a Marvel Fanfare, or Marvel What If. Both great ideas.

And Avengers Classified for lack of a better name would be great. Fans could have there cake and eat it to, and Marvel would make money.

[von Bek]

Or something in the lines of Avengers Spotlight, but with characters from the past history of the Avengers (a young and inexperienced Hawkeye or Scarlet Witch; an untold tale of Swordsman and Magdalene and so on).

[dlw66]

The only thing I would suggest, in light of some of the past series that you mention, is that there be A-list creators. I think the Avengers are deserving of Marvel's best. DC has no problem putting Ross, Perez, or even today guys like Rags Morales on their "big event" books. I wouldn't want the old try-out concept to be done on a team I consider special.

[Black Knight]

Well, in DC you have had Morrison, and Simone doing arcs on JLA Classifed, both good writers, I think you would have writers like Kirkman, Slott, and Joe Casey doing the books.

[The Night Phantom]

I’m going to be negative. (Sometimes it’s fun to be different...)

I’m more of a Marvel guy than a DC guy, but I do read some DC stuff. In fact, I’ve read the Liberty & Justice graphic novel and have been reading the Justice limited series (both of which Dlw66 cited in the initial post).

But I don’t like this out-of-continuity concept for Marvel characters. Why? One of the things that built my interest in the Marvel Universe was the continuity, which gave the fantasy an oddly real grounding and was simultaneously fascinating in itself. And of course, the continuity helped me branch out to other Marvel works, both contemporary and past.

DC’s continuity was, well, a messiverse. Despite efforts to clean it up, the DC cosmos as a general whole has failed to capture my interest. When I read a DC Universe comic, that particular comic’s concept has drawn me in. Clearly, one of DC’s great strengths—perhaps its greatest—is its iconic concept characters. But without the continuity factor, I tend to feel little brand loyalty vis-à-vis DC and its properties, with the consequences that (A) reading a DC series tends not to lead me to seek out other DC series; (B) it’s emotionally easier for me to drop a DC series when it starts to disappoint (as opposed to opting to ride it out and think positive, as I might with...oh, New Avengers, for example); and (C) once I’ve dropped a DC series, I’m less likely to be watching anxiously from afar for a sign of strong improvement that would compel me to start buying and reading it again. In other words, strong overall continuity universe-wide, a draw for me at Marvel, has not been much of a draw for me at DC. That’s why I can read both out-of-continuity Justice and in-continuity JLA: both feature (potentially) interesting concepts, and the continuity is not much of a factor.

If capturing my interest were all that mattered, then an OOC Avengers book would likely be a failure. (Indeed, I don’t read Marvel Adventures comics, and the only Ultimate Universe story I’ve read was Marvel Zombies, in which some other factors like the “high concept” and my estimation of the writer trumped my reluctance.) I want the consequences to cross over from book to book.

Now, a lot of ideas have been tossed around since the initial post. The ideas cited would not necessarily depend on the out-of-continuity condition; one could have a series of rotating creators and eras that would still present in-continuity stories. I even like some of the specific suggestions (e.g., Vonbek’s notions of “Cap´s Kooky Quartet by Brubaker and Epting or Harras' Avengers by Kirkman and Kollins”). On the other hand, I’m also wary of a series with so much creative upheaval from arc to arc. And as mentioned, there is the danger of devolution into lackluster also-ran stories. Frankly, I think I would prefer the occasional limited series (à la Avengers: Earth’s Mightiest Heroes) to a regular anthology-style monthly.

One last thought. If such ideas is pursued, I truly hope the phrase “Untold Tales” would not be part of the title. The title should tell me something of what’s inside. “Untold Tales” tells me no tale is told inside!

[dlw66]

Thanks for the time for your response. Very well thought out.

I think my initial impulse was the comparison to Alex Ross' work, which granted is not on a regular basis. As a big fan of his, that's part of the "treat" to his work. I guess I don't need this to be an ongoing title. I like the mini-series or a revival of the old graphic novel format.

To disagree with you, Night Phantom, I drastically cut back my buying several years ago when crossovers became the norm (all however-many Spider-Man titles going week to week, same thing with Superman). Now, if that's not what you mean (I want the consequences to cross over from book to book), then I apologize. If you meant that you want to see consequences held up over time -- I agree with you. That's why as a longtime fan I CANNOT deal with Norman Osborn being alive, etc.

I like big one-and-done stories. Anyone have the Treasury of Superman vs. the Amazing Spider-Man? Superman vs. Wonder Woman (and no, I am not even going to Supes vs. Muhammad Ali!!!)? Those were cool, out of continuity stories with a lasting enjoyment. Ross' recent mentioned efforts are in that category for me.

[The Night Phantom]

dlw66 said:

Thanks for the time for your response. Very well thought out.

Thanks!

I think my initial impulse was the comparison to Alex Ross' work, which granted is not on a regular basis. As a big fan of his, that's part of the "treat" to his work.

Agreed!

To disagree with you, Night Phantom, I drastically cut back my buying several years ago when crossovers became the norm (all however-many Spider-Man titles going week to week, same thing with Superman). Now, if that's not what you mean (I want the consequences to cross over from book to book), then I apologize. If you meant that you want to see consequences held up over time -- I agree with you.

Then in fact you do agree with me —well, so long as you do not object to consequences held up in contemporaneous publications, too. That kind of crossing over is not necessarily a “crossover” (a continued story). I mean things like, you know, if Spider-Man gets a new costume with new abilities in ASM, then he starts wearing it in all his other appearances. (Even if it’s ugly.) Or if Crystal is having marital difficulties in Avengers, then over in X-Factor, Pietro says something like, “Gee, I’m depressed about my faltering marriage. Maybe I should find someone to hit over and over really fast.” That sort of thing. The consequences may be significant or they may be minor, but they show that the characters do not live in a vacuum.

[Shiryu]

Well, these "Untold" stories shouldn't necessarely be outside continuity. I think there was a book called Untold Tales of Spider Man a few years ago, which was perfectly in continuity.
May be it would be difficult having long, important story arcs, but one isses stories shouldn't be a problem if the author pays some attention to what was happening to the Avengers in those days.

[von Bek]

John Byrne did that in his X-Men Hidden Years series. It was not a retcon, but more like inserting additional stories in continuity, paying attention to what the villains and guest stars were doing in that particular moment of the MU continuity.
Only with rotating creative teams, each one covering a different group of Avengers, such a series would be more dinamic and interesting.

[dlw66]

Yes, Hidden Years was a good series -- I was sorry to see it end. The main thing I didn't like about it, however, was that he was creeping in stuff that didn't seem to fit, like the "first" contact with Storm. I just don't think you can have a "glad to meet you" scene in GS X-Men #1 and retcon an earlier contact.

[von Bek]

dlw66 said:

Yes, Hidden Years was a good series -- I was sorry to see it end. The main thing I didn't like about it, however, was that he was creeping in stuff that didn't seem to fit, like the "first" contact with Storm. I just don't think you can have a "glad to meet you" scene in GS X-Men #1 and retcon an earlier contact.

Yes, but IIRC only the Beast actually saw Storm, Cyclops and Marvel Girl didn´t interact with her at all.

[dlw66]

And since the Beast was getting blue and furry at the time of GS X-Men #1/X-Men #94, there's no conflict. Interesting point...

[von Bek]

I don´t have the issues before me, but it wasn´t really a retcon, since IIRC Cyclops (the only 'old' X-Men who remained with the team after GS XM 1) was uncounscious in Africa, so the first time he actually met Storm (meaning when he actually saw and talked to her) was when they went to Krakoa. Very good job by Byrne.

[dlw66]

Help me out -- what's "IIRC" mean? I'm sure it will be a "well, duh" moment for me, but it's not coming to me!

[von Bek]

IIRC - If I Remember Correctly

[dlw66]

and if my 6th grader, who uses the AOL Messenger way too much had been here, I'm sure he could have told me that!! Thanks!

[von Bek]

No prob, not long ago it took me a long time to find out what AFAIK meant.

[dlw66]

OK -- I give up.

[dlw66]

I came across this while reading an interview with Alex Ross about the 10th anniversary of Kingdom Come, over on Comic Book Resources. It bears discussion in the midst of this thread:

CBR: One of those themes was Superman growing rather disheartened over his world choosing to embrace much darker, less upstanding heroes of the day. Flash forward to today and we have characters violating each other's minds and heroes killing each other. With that in mind, could "Kingdom Come" as it was produced 10 years ago be made today?

Ross: Yeah, except now it would seem redundant because all those same things are being explored in a lot of contemporary books. So, it would sort of be like why set it in the future if you can do it today? Yeah, you could write that "Kingdom Come" story now because they seem to be much more flexible or leaning towards that kind of overall "screw with our entire company" type of thing - characters live, characters die - but I think it benefited "Kingdom Come" to be a story out of time so that, in a way, through the trade paperback sales and the way it sinks into people, it's this moment in history that's not related to a specific time. You can read it today, you can read it ten years from now and it'll still be relevant. It's not connected to one version of a character that's no longer written.