Million Dollar Questions

[Yellowjacket]

shiryu said:

I Indeed I remember many occansions where she is falling and someone has to catch her in mid air, or where she says "the Scarlet Witch doesn't fly".

Isn´t that indeed her preferred situation, getting rescued...? ;D
But seriously, at the latest from the early 70s on Marvel´s women were self-conscious and strong, in civil life as in combat alike -- another accomplishment from Marvel.

[Bored Yesterday]

Her flying scene was just about her first outing after learning witchcraft. That would be a good one shot -- a story to tell us why she only flew that one time. Maybe she had harnessed a demon, but was only able to command one service. I'd like to hear from the creators on that. Were they planning on making her a flyer and changed their minds or was it just a fluke or what?

[Shiryu]

I think they weren't sure about her powers and didn't know what she could or could not do. That's just my opinion however.

[autolychus2]

Here's one that's stumped me since I was a kid.
OK, when Pym shrinks down to ant-size, he remains the same weight -- there are several instances where he leaps on a villains' back and takes him down when he was tiny. Unlike the Atom, there's never been any mention that I can remember of him being able to control his density. So, my question is this: How do his flying ant friends pick his 180 or so pounds up on their backs?

Auto

[bobc]

So many contradictions so little time! Yeah the whole Wanda flying things seems to be another example of how all over the place her powers have been over the years.

And yeah Ant Man shouldn't be able to ride an ant if he retains his mass. But this topic has been discussed over the years, with some comic fans saying his mass is deposited into another dimension when he shrinks--something wacky like that.

To me one of the biggest flaws in the Vision's history is Pym's statement that the Vision is "inch for inch a human being, constructed of synthetic parts." Not true! In that very episode we saw flying, metallic plates that acted as a defense mechanism when Ant Man was nosing around in there. I'm pretty sure no real human has those! And over the years, the Vision has been shown to have lots of metal and wires inside him--so saying he's a synthetic human is a stretch. He's more like a robot.

[Shiryu]

As for Auto's question, I think bobc mentioned the most recent explanation, that when he shrinks he retains his human sized strenght but his mass is sent into another dimension, the same one where the Pym particles come from. In the middle of volume 3 this contributed to cause the creation of a second Hank Pym.

As for the Vision, I actually think that your argument goes towards the definition of "inch for inch a human being, constructed of synthetic parts". He is made of wires, plastic and metal and has his own metallic immune system, but acts, thinks and behaves like a (usually very rational) human being. For example I doubt a robot could be gelous for his wife sleeping with someone else.

[Bored Yesterday]

I just encountered an in-continuity explanation for Scarlet Witch's flight. In issue 163 she mentions an experimental flight belt developed by Tony Stark that proved unsafe for continued use. This was confirmed in the letter column of issue 168 as an explanation for her flight in issue 153.

At least I think 153 and 163 are the correct issue numbers. I get confused about those -- but essentially, good ol' Jim Shooter explained the flight of the Witch.

[bobc]

Bored--you're right, I vaguely remember that. BUT to me that was a hastily concieved excuse written in later, since if you actually look at the issue where she flies, Wanda clearly has a hex sphere going on at the time. I also find it a bit of a stretch that Tony Stark can create jets and super-powered flying armor, but couldn't seem to pull a flight ring together. So I think the whole Wanda flying thing was a mistake which needed a likely explanation or cover up.

Remember Wanda is the most confused character in all of Marvel, power wise. She went from fighting the Enchantress to a standstill in an ealry episode, casting "spell" after "spell," and then just a few issues later she practically had to have a weeks vacation after forming one crappy hex. She was pretty much useless from the mid sixties until the mid seventies, the poor thing.

[Shiryu]

It's probably a later correction, but still I appreciate the try. At least Shooter realized the error and did an effort to cover it up.

[bobc]

The Legion of Superheroes all have flight rings if I recall correctly. Maybe Shooter was confused about which book he was writing.

You know, Wanda really should have the ability to fly if you think about it. If she can levitate boulders and things like that, she should be able to levitate herself. OR if you go with the whole witchcraft thing, she should be able to fly like Storm.

[Bored Yesterday]

I always thought of the Vision as having plastic cellular construction, plastic replicting DNA, the whole bit, because I think that's how he was originally conceived, but of course that has eroded over the years. Now he's just another robot. He's no longer a synthezoid in any sense.

[dlw66]

Wasn't there a big controversy when Byrne was doing WCA as to the Vision's composition? I thought the whole intent of bringing the Original Human Torch back was to show once and for all that the Vision was not created from his body. If I recall, Dr. Horton made the Torch one way (plastics or metals) and the Vision was the opposite.

Anyway, it always made me wonder as a kid when I was reading Invaders and Avengers at the same time, being aware that the story then was that the Vision had at one time been the Torch that they were so different in look, voice, etc. To be honest, I don't think Marvel's ever definitively resolved the point to everyone's satisfaction...

As to Wanda flying, I'm glad I've started such a lengthy discussion . Like bobc said, in the scene I referenced there is clearly a hex sphere.

Man, I need to get that Avengers DVD-ROM to have in front of me for some of these threads!!

[bobc]

I'll go to my grave swearing she was hexing AND flying.

[Bored Yesterday]

Ok, I figured it out, and this is worthy of a no-prize.

Since we know Marvel doesn't make continuity mistakes, there must be some explanation for the contradictions -- hex sphere or flight belt?

Well, we know the flight belt was determined to be too dangerous for repeated use. This could be due to problems with steering or it could be something more risky, like a chance of explosion. In either case, Wanda, while flying with it, must have been using her hex power to counter the danger of the flight belt.

[bobc]

Bored--that explanation was completely crackpot. You not only do not get the no-prize, but I'm afraid you must submit to a public flogging as your penance for crimes against this forum.

[The Night Phantom]

Boredyesterday, I like it. You get...er...no prize from me. ;D

Bobc, a hex on you.

[dlw66]

I thought boredyesterday's response was certainly worthy of the type of waffling you'd get from a creator pinned down at a con panel by angry fans!

She was hexing...

Flight belts??

[bobc]

I deserve a good hexing. Or even a Wasp sting.

[Alaric]

bobc said:

To me one of the biggest flaws in the Vision's history is Pym's statement that the Vision is "inch for inch a human being, constructed of synthetic parts." Not true! In that very episode we saw flying, metallic plates that acted as a defense mechanism when Ant Man was nosing around in there. I'm pretty sure no real human has those! And over the years, the Vision has been shown to have lots of metal and wires inside him--so saying he's a synthetic human is a stretch. He's more like a robot.

I remember reading an interview with Roy Thomas once where he said that when he created the Vision he originally intended the character to be completely human. Apparently, Stan Lee insisted that the character had to be a "red-skinned android", so, as a compremise, they went the "synthezoid" route- trying to make him both an android and a human being, in a sense. Over the years, writers forgot how "human" the Vision's physiology was supposed to be.

[bobc]

wow--I didn't know that, Alaric. I like the Vision best way back in the 60's and early 70's, when he was spookier and seemed mega-powerful. He's another character that seemed to lose something over the years. I remember when he would stomp the floor and bring a whole house down--but his power level seemed to just ebb past the 70's.

Looking back on it--that whole storyarch where the Grim Reaper offers the Vision Wonder Man's body in return for betraying the Avengers, was one of the greatest stories ever. I remember that last panel where the Reaper asks him if he'd betray the Avengers, and the Vision just says "yes"--and then I had to wait a freakin month to find out what evil thing was about to transpire!! hee hee! Man comics meant so much to me back then.

[dlw66]

As a kid I always thought that the Vision and DC's Red Tornado must have been separated at birth. But the Tornado was always portrayed as more robotic than the Vision, with the exception of Vizh's weird yellow word balloons!

I liked the 70's Vision who was a powerhouse on the team: Thor, Iron Man, and the Vision...

[The Night Phantom]

alaric said:

I remember reading an interview with Roy Thomas once where he said that when he created the Vision he originally intended the character to be completely human. Apparently, Stan Lee insisted that the character had to be a "red-skinned android", so, as a compremise, they went the "synthezoid" route- trying to make him both an android and a human being, in a sense. Over the years, writers forgot how "human" the Vision's physiology was supposed to be.

I was reminded of a similar situation this weekend while watching an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation. TNG’s resident android, Data, also started as a “synthezoid” of sorts (he even caught a virus in the series’ second episode) but was soon being treated as a more run-of-the-mill (within the annals of sci-fi) electronic device. Although there’s nothing wrong with exploring an artificial being from the Radio Shack school, still it’s disappointing that writers and their bosses can’t or won’t glom onto something different. In the Marvel Universe’s case, the Vision’s “banalization” as an android is especially unfortunate vis-à-vis the later introduction of Machine Man as a (would-be) major character, as it makes both characters somewhat redundant.

dlw66 said:

As a kid I always thought that the Vision and DC's Red Tornado must have been separated at birth.

Funny that the latest iteration of the Vision’s origin is a “separated at birth” story. (Imagine how much more confusing it would be if the Red Tornado had been added in there...  )

[bobc]

Well I think the idea of a synthezoid is a lot more interesting than a robot. I like the idea of a fake human. I've known a few.

You know now that I'm an adult I find the idea of Wanda having a relationship with a fake human kinda creepy. I like Millar's take on that in the Ultimates

[dlw66]

Funny how they played up Quicksilver as the big jerk in the whole Wanda/Vision thing. He was the only rational one!!

[Shiryu]

Probably the played on the fact that a mutant, who says that his sister can't love someone "different", is rather contradictory.

[bobc]

Right Shiryu--the "bad" Avengers like Quicksilver and Mantis always made for more interesting stories. I want Quicksilver back in the Avengers to perk things up. He's a pain in the azz.

[Shiryu]

I heard that Pietro has recently resurfaced in an X title, trying to have his powers back, so his return to Earth's Mightiest may not be too far away (if they won't him back that is).

[bobc]

I didn't know he lost his powers. When did that occur? The last I knew, he was faster than ever but that was back in the late 90's I think. Nobody can call me a gossip--I never know what's going on.

Quicksilver needs to be in the Avengers, causing problems there, NOT in the X-Men. Bob has spoken.

[Shiryu]

It happened a few months ago in the aftermath of House of M (guess it's not to be considered a spoiler anymore by now ^^). Wanda's wish "no more mutants" caused the huge majority of them to lose their powers, and these include Pietro, Magneto and Wanda herself.
Other famous mutants like Wolverine, Beast, Justice, Firestar and most of the important X-Men still have their powers though.

[bobc]

uuhhhhh why did some of them get to keep their powers?