Best Villain, all-time

[dlw66]

It looks like from these boards that the as-close-to-consensus-as-you're-going-to-get best Avengers villain is Ultron (I personally would put Kang a very close second). If Ultron is the Avengers best villain, and let's say Dr. Doom is the FF's (although I love Galactus stories), the Green Goblin is Spidey's, Batman's is the Joker, etc. -- who is the best villain of all time, and why do you feel that way?

[thew40]

It's tough to say.

From what I've read (which isn't nearly as much as probably most of you), Ultron, Kang, and maybe Loki would all fit that category.

~W~

[imperiusrex]

For me, the best villain all time takes on a more significant answer than just the appearances in certain issues. The villain who did the most to change the paradigm is really the one that's most important.
Say what you will about Doom or the Joker et al. my pick Galactus, is the villain who changed comics.
Galactus still makes you think with his every appearance. His first appearance was so deep, so heavy that it effectively changed comics. he was the first menace with a tragic core that shone through. He was a sympathetic murderer.
Doom, Joker, Magneto and others have come into their own over the last twenty years with shades of subtlety that have made them more interesting, but Galactus burst forth and completely remade the villain mode; he's amoral but honorable, immensely, scarily powerful but also awe inspiring.
No villain did more to expand the boundaries of what you could do in the morality play of comics than Galactus did.

[Yellowjacket]

Regarding the Avengers my favorite villain is clearly Kang, for sure he is even more annoying than Ultron. The damned guy ;D looses (of course always), retreats into the timestream and jumps back right in front of our heroes, maybe one minute or an hour before the last time to fight them again.
Of course, they always come back someday, but this can really be annoying.

I wouldn´t think a consensus with other fangroup villain polls possible, just think of Doc Doom (which is one hell of a villain!), but as an Avengers fan I will therefor always choose one of the Avengers notorious nags.
I`d think most fans will choose likewise.

And Galactus? You´re right, in my opinion Galactus isn´t even a real villain as we all know, he is just hungry...

[dlw66]

imperiousrex --

Your points about Galactus are very well-spoken and valid. He is in a way a tragic character, but menacing to no end nonetheless. I think Kurt Busiek and Alex Ross gave him perhaps his best portrayal in Marvels issue 3. The splash page where the Thing has toppled him off the Baxter Building and Galactus gathers himself while levitating a hundred yards above the Manhattan streets is very memorable.

The Joker is relentless -- Moore and Bolland gave (IMO) the most accurate portrayal of him in The Killing Joke.

Doom is somewhat like the Joker from the standpoint that he exists solely for the Richards/von Doom dichotomy, similarly to the Joker/Batman dichotomy. While the protagonists seem to have more layers, the antagonists seem to have one purpose.

Luthor to me just never seems to be a match for Superman. Obviously I'm wrong, since he's been doing his deal for over 60 years.

Red Skull is a good one, particularly in the retro. stories of the war years. His origin as told by Stan and Jack in Tales of Suspense (I have that collected in Bring On the Bad Guys as well as the first Capt. America Masterworks) is wonderful.

The Green Goblin has become watered down. Best portrayal -- The Spectacular Spider-Man, 1968 -- the oversized two-issue mag that was cancelled after that issue. I believe the story has been reprinted, but I'm not sure where.

Savana? Blehhhh...

Kang's a good one, as is his DC counterpart, the Time Trapper.

Magneto? Best portrayal was his first two encounters with the all-new, all-different X-Men, first by Claremont/thingyrum, then by Claremont/Byrne.

[Shiryu]

I probably go for Dr Doom, probably because he is one of the few villains who regularly go out with different sparring partners than the classic ones.
For example in the Standoff crossover, he manipulated Iron Man and Thor. In the Imperior Doom he took control of the earth, in Secret Wars he was the one with the biggest scope etc. His plans and scopes seem to be so huge that nearly every hero has to deal with him often to stop him (as opposed for example to the Goblin, who basically fights only against Spidey).
Even Superman had to deal with him in a crossover ^^

Close second is Galactus. While I really love this guy, I can't consider him a villain. He just wants to survive, probably in a "fruit society", with every other food not commestible, we would be like him.

[dlw66]

Shiryu --

You give Doom more of his due than I did -- your depiction is much more accurate and deeper than what I had stated. Thanks!

[wellsoul2]

For the Avengers classic villians:

Ultron is the scariest for me.

Loki is the most devious.

Kang has the most convoluted schemes.

Deadliest and most powerful "villian" is
The Scarlet Witch!
(Well maybe Onslaught since he made Avengers crappy
for a year)

[Shiryu]

dlw66 said:

Shiryu --

You give Doom more of his due than I did -- your depiction is much more accurate and deeper than what I had stated. Thanks!

No problem. I pretty much like the guy so that's where it's coming from. Have you read the graphic novel with Dr. Strange (can't remember the title right now, the one where they finally free Doom's mother from Mephisto, at the price of her love for his son) ?
I think it was stunning!

[dlw66]

I know what you're talking about but haven't seen it. The story sounds very interesting!

[Avenger4Ever]

The title is DOCTOR STRANGE & DOCTOR DOOM: TRIUMPH AND TORMENT. A great book!

A4E

[dlw66]

I really like the portrayal of Doom in the arc that ended with FF #200. I believe it was actually a clone story, with the clone being passed off as Doom's son.

I did not at all care for Doom's depiction in either Ultimate FF or the FF movie.

[Shiryu]

Yes, that's the one !
You can actually download it from a website (that's where I got it from ;D), but I don't know if I can post the link. I'll tell you in PM if you are interested.
I don't buy Ultimate FF, but Doom was probably the worse thing in the FF movie, he really had nothing to do with his comic book counterpart.

[Yellowjacket]

I do buy/read UFF and imho the Doom story was quite bad, too. This applies for the story itself (nonsense I would say) as for the characterization (at least most of it) of Doom himself.

But then, I don´t like it when Doom is using magic (I do not remember exactly, but I think he relied for a good part on magic in this story), I think he should lean on technology (in every universe), at least most of the times.
Plus, I didn´t like Stuart Immonen´s drawings.

Honestly, the whole run was so-so and that did not change until Millar/Land took over (UFF #21). Hope they will stay some time.

[dlw66]

Greg Land's art is just fantastic (no pun intended, really!)!

[Yellowjacket]

Damned, just read Millar won´t continue UFF:

"MM: No, this is it as far as Ultimate FF goes, I'm afraid. I pretty much know what I'm doing for the next couple of years and UFF doesn't feature. There was a moment a few months back where I almost stayed for another year or two. Joe had just read the new issue and wrote me a really nice letter, saying he really felt I should stay and since a new writer hadn't been chosen yet it was very tempting.

I love the FF and had forgotten just how much until I started working on the book. I felt I had a good voice for them and the readers seemed really into it. It was very tempting, like I said, but I'm strictly a 2.5 books a month guy at the most and wasn't prepared to shelf upcoming plans. "

www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/millar/millar_2.html

[dlw66]

Just another example of both Marvel and DC (Marvel more) marketing to the trade paperback -- or in Millar's case maybe more than one. That being said, it irks me to no end that there is this metality of the "creator carousel" -- again, we the consumer don't matter.

It is very difficult to remain attached to a book these days.

[Shiryu]

Sad but true. Fans opinions seem to not count anything anymore.
I agree it's impossible to please everyone, but still the readers (and buyers) should be kept at least in some consideration...

[dlw66]

I understood why Perez and Busiek went off Avengers Vol. 3 -- it had been a few years, they'd given us a good run, and I believe George wanted some time away. But in many other cases, it seems like the editors or editors-in-chief shift gears so often. How often do you read press that says "This would be a great jumping on point for new readers"? While I am all for recruiting new readers, half the fun of picking up a new title is searching for its past, buying up back issues. Why do they think the slate has to be wiped clean every couple of years? It is actually kind of insulting to our tastes and our intelligence.

[bobc]

Here's a drawing I did today of Doctor Doom, a prime contender:


bobcooksey.com/doom.htm

[Yellowjacket]

Hey, not bad, not bad at all!

I would like to use that on my opening page (currently I have some bad guys "greeting" the visitors) on my homepage. Would you agree?

[dlw66]

Bob --

Looks great! That's a nice modern yet traditional take on Doom. Updated, but respectful of the past. Good job!!

[Shiryu]

Great drawing Bob, looks menacing and dark enough, really good.

I agree with Dlw on the excessive authors shifts. Having the same people for at least a couple of years gives stability to the book, and helps them to develop their story arcs properly, without leaving unanswered questions.

Having a writer or artist change too often makes it very hard to follow a book, expecially since everyone wants to move the character in a whole new direction, with sudden plot twists.

[bobc]

Thanks guys!

[bobc]

bobcooksey.com/comicillustration.htm