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Post by dlw66 on Jun 28, 2006 15:35:13 GMT -5
And W, if you need any validation for the gripes of us old fogies, just check out how many topics and posts there are on the Classic Avengers corner of this website. There is where you'll find some longtime Avengers fans with a stake in these characters. There is a passion for this book that I'm not sure newer readers can appreciate, and I'm sure this can be said of those of us in regards to the FF, X-Men (Claremont, Byrne, et al. -- back when it was good), JLA, etc.
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Post by Black Knight on Jun 28, 2006 15:44:18 GMT -5
Right on, Ultron. You know, people have some serious, very real issues with Bendis' train-wreck called the New Avengers. Bad dialogue, incorrect historical references, zero action, characters who don't behave the way they have for forty years, blah blah blah. These are valid criticisms. After putting tens of thousands of dollars into Marvels coffers over the years, I think I and others here can be allowed to mouth off a little in a goofy comic forum. I have asked the Bendis moonies to explain what exactly is so good about what he's done with the Avengers, and they basically can't explain a thing. Yeah they might say it's cool to have Spiderwoman around again, or maybe NA has a few funny lines in it from time to time, but beyond that, nothing. I can handle incompetent writers, but I can't handle people carrying on like Bendis is the greatest writer ever to walk the earth. It's depressing that people actually expect so little these days. That was something that bothered me as well, all most people who favor NA say to paragraphs of thought out complaints is that "I don't like change", or "I am just a fanboy and to shut up". When I ask them to show me how my complaints are wrong, I usually get the typical, because Bendis is great. When I point out the huge plot holes, they then try and fill them in for Bendis. Of course when I point out that if you have to fill in plot holes for the writer, that it is poor writing. Anyway, I don't hate Bendis, heck I loved Alias, the man simple can't write team books.
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Post by bobc on Jun 28, 2006 17:22:27 GMT -5
We are not old, DL, we are aged to perfection.
The way I see it, some of us have several decades of Avengers under our belts so we have a certain perspective that the young pups don't have yet. In fact, the younger guys should hurl themselves to their knees and beg for the opportunity to bask in our learned presences.
Listen to Bob and you will learn.
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Post by thew40 on Jun 28, 2006 17:31:58 GMT -5
Here's my whole take on it. I'll be a little refined here.
I enjoy Bendis, for the most part. However, I do not allow my being a fan of Bendis to dictate whether or not I feel like he's doing a good job on a book. "Powers," I feel, has fallen apart. "Ultimate Spider-Man" can be touch and go sometimes.
And, I hated "Disassembled."
What I've enjoyed about "New Avengers" is that the cast is very JLA-like, pulling from some of the most powerful and popular characters from across the MU - as well as characters that have fallen by the wayside (Spider-Woman). I like that the threats are mired and deep. Not just wrapped up in one storyline. Something or someone is working behind the scenes, manipulating SHIELD, the Hand, and Hydra. I like that it's subtle, kinda like the X-Files.
I like the dialogue. I like that each character has their own, personal reasons for being Avengers. I like Avengers Tower. I like Spider-Woman and Commander Hill. I actually, for the first time, like Luke Cage. I like that these are very iconic Avengers, and yet not accepted by the public.
Some of these are traits from previous Avengers runs, in particular Busiek's.
I'll be completely honest. Bendis was probably not the best person to have on "New Avengers." I think he does better when he can center in on one character and surround that one character with strong supporting characters. Despite his strengths, it seems hard for him to balance an ensemble cast.
Case in point: New Avengers # 21, in which he focuses in on Cap and pulls off a fantastic story.
This is what has been bothering me, though. A lot of people here tend to turn these talkback threads into "this is why I quit comics" or "I wish Bendis would get off this book" or, basically, into a Pro- versus Anti-Bendis debate. I find it distracting and, honestly, silly.
EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinion. But honestly, let's make these threads about the books themselves. What was wrong with issue 20? Was it the art? The dialogue? The story? How does it fit into the overall storyarc?
~W~
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Post by bobc on Jun 29, 2006 9:59:25 GMT -5
I bought "Powers" a couple of times and couldn't get into it for some reason. I liked Alias.
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Post by dlw66 on Jun 29, 2006 13:49:38 GMT -5
W -
You get some karma for that explanation. While I think we'll continue to be apart on the merits of this book, I wholeheartedly appreciate the time you spent in that thoughtful reply. You justified your points very well!
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Post by bobc on Jun 29, 2006 14:04:55 GMT -5
Yeah I agree.
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Post by Black Knight on Jun 29, 2006 15:12:08 GMT -5
I have to agree as well, although we may not agree, it is refreshing to talk to someone who has reasons for liking the NA. It does get very tiresome to here the same "I just do" from people at the sametime as they ask you for a indepth reason for why you don't. Thank you for proving that not all fans of NA are sheep.
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Post by bobc on Jun 29, 2006 15:43:53 GMT -5
I find bashing Bendis really fun at times. It's a sign of my low intelligence. But I really don't care if other people like him. Whatever blows your skirt up...
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Post by Yellowjacket on Jun 30, 2006 0:50:39 GMT -5
I don´t know if I like him, hell, I don´t even know the man. On the other hand I do enjoy his NA -- just kidding (meaning the first part...).
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Post by Shiryu on Jun 30, 2006 8:33:06 GMT -5
I've said a few times what I don't like in NA, and not having read the latest issues I can't comment further. However I too appreciated your post, W, it has some good points.
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Jul 3, 2006 14:49:28 GMT -5
That's where I jumped off the X-Men band wagon. Putting Storm in black biker leather was the last straw me and I've never looked back.
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Post by bobc on Jul 3, 2006 15:11:29 GMT -5
Yeah--looking back on it, whose idea was that? I mean what a terrible idea that whole mohawk biker thing was--has anyone dared to take credit for it? I really doubt any X-Men fans look back and say "wow--I really liked Storm best when she had no powers and looked like she lost a fight with a weed whacker."
Why did Storm adopt that look? Does anybody remember?
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Post by Shiryu on Jul 4, 2006 5:42:37 GMT -5
If I'm not mistaken, after the experience with the Brood she lost her "contact" with the earth, and this left her in a distraught state. She gradually become more aggressive, and eventually met a friend of Wolverine, Yukio (or something like that ^^), who had a "live your life at the fulliest every day" attitude. Affascinated, Storm changed her look, going punk and dressing in blach leather (much to Sprite's dismay). The whole story should be on www.uncannyxmen.net in the "Spotlight" area (some really great mutant profiles there, including one of Wanda)
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Post by bobc on Jul 4, 2006 9:11:07 GMT -5
Thanks Shir.
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myg65
New Avenger
Posts: 9
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Post by myg65 on Jul 5, 2006 21:35:48 GMT -5
I've been an Avengers fan since about age 8 or so...that was back in the mid 70's...I know, a long time ago!!! I'm not entirely sure what the heck has been going on the last couple of years though. I'm especially confused with certain Avengers (especially Clint, Hank and Jan to mention a few) who have been portrayed WAY out of character! The whole affair between Clint and Jan is one thing. The revelation that Hank ALWAYS wanted her...come on!!! and Clint turning against Hank because he resented his treatment of Jan. That animosity was NEVER hinted at over the years. Can't wait to see the awkward moments between these three down the road. Ya think Clint and Hank might butt heads...doubt that their friendship will survive this one!!! Imagine that, another Avengers rivalry?!?
The current line-up actually doesn't make sense...especially where Wolverine is concerned. Here we have a mutant who barely wants anything to do with the X-Teams, and he's an Avenger?!? It just doesn't seem right to me. Spider Man I can see, he's been this route a couple of times before, and Cap can be very convincing. Besides, Spidey has a lot of respect for him.
Also, maybe the rumors of the formation of another Avengers team book will be the catalyst to bring the original book to its original number as well.
Other than just venting, I don't have much of an opinion on the latest issue because as I stated (aside from the Civil War breakdowns) I don't really know what's going on in New Avengers. Sentry is still a mystery to me. I don't understand what all the hype was for Roninn...a character I never heard of, who hasn't been seen in months...yet we (the fans) spent months speculating who this "mystery Avenger" might be!!!
My last comment...please find a writer who will show some respect to Pietro Maximoff...aka Quicksilver. He has received a "raw deal" for decades, and every Avenger fan knows what I'm talking about. His wife is a fickle B@#$h who questioned her love for him THE BLASTED NIGHT BEFORE HER WEDDING!!! (read Avengers #127!!!). He's always being depicted (on covers especially) as being unconscious, knocked out, or just plain crazy!!! The Avengers have turned their backs on him on numerous occasions. The one constant in his life (his sister Wanda), has lost her ever loving mind...apparently she's slowly been doing so for years! The guy deserves better.
Avengers Assemble!!!
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Post by bobc on Jul 6, 2006 10:05:54 GMT -5
I agree with every word, myg65. I want Pietro back in the Avengers. When he's around, things always get interesting. The friction between him and the Vision, back in the 70's, always made for great stories. I love the whole angle that he is a mutant and knows what it's like to be hated, but he turns his nose up at the Vision because he's an android.
The "bad" superheroes are always more interesting than the goodie goodies.
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 9, 2006 21:13:41 GMT -5
Back to the issue at hand. OK, last night I made myself sit down and plow through NA Annual #1, issue #19, and issue #20. I say "made myself", but this is not an uncommon reading habit for me -- I find my comics comprehension is higher when I do short runs at one sitting. However, that's also related to whether or not it's a "can't wait" title or just something run-of-the-mill (as NA is for me). First off, I was surprised at the Annual. I seriously had not even opened the book since I bought it. I was to be honest turned off by the cover, as Luke Cage and Jessica Jones are two characters for whom my care-o-meter has a hard time registering. I was at first turned off by the constant use of the word "d**n" or the faux swear words -- as I've said elsewhere, this is not necessary in mainstream comics. As also stated elsewhere, all comics used to be all-ages, and there's no reason they still cannot be. The story had a decent plot, and the wedding was worked in nicely at the end. Jessica's monologue during the vows was nice writing. The angle on the Black Widow was well done. To be honest, the highlight of the book for me was the opening page with the cover of Avengers #45 -- John Buscema!!!! Issues 19-20 were decent when read together. I am still not sold on the line-up -- it is not natural and feels forced often. Spider-Man still doesn't belong, and Wolverine has none of the antogonism that made him work so well in X-Men in the 1980's. The whole Michael thing was explained OK, and the cover to #20 was very cool. Like others have said, though, the Xorn thing was lost on me. I understand Magneto was disoriented, but here was a golden opportunity to make a bold statement with one of Marvel's top two or three baddies and it was dismissed pretty easily. The art was tolerable in all three books, and I can honestly say that in the whole run of 2+ years, this was probably the most enjoyable reading of the lot. I still am looking for Bendis to be as close to consistent on this book as he seems to be on Ultimate Spider-Man, which I've said I for the most part enjoy... So here's looking forward to NA Disassembled, because it couldn't possibly be worse than what we went through a couple of years ago. Could it?
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Post by thew40 on Jul 11, 2006 15:40:51 GMT -5
The current line-up actually doesn't make sense...especially where Wolverine is concerned. Here we have a mutant who barely wants anything to do with the X-Teams, and he's an Avenger?!? I gotta clear something up here because it's bugging me. Wolverine hasn't "barely wants anything to with the X-Teams" in a good long time. He's only not been a member of the X-Men during the post-"Fatal Attractions" to the "Age of Apocalypse" era. Other than that, he's been fiercly loyal. Including a brief period of team when he was actually running the X-Men (right before "Fall of the Mutants"). As for his Avengers membership . . . I always liked the idea that he was the "secret weapon" of the group. I don't think it was used very often and I think his presence during the "Ronin" arc would have been appreciated, but other than, that I think he fits in fine with this team of Avengers. I still say that a second Avengers books - a more classic line-up with classic villians - would be great, while still continuing on with "New Avengers." "Son of M" is a great Pietro book. Not to mention his own on-going from 1998ish. And, also, Peter David's far-too-short "X-Factor" run. All great stories with Pietro. ~W~
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Jul 13, 2006 19:36:53 GMT -5
So here's looking forward to NA Disassembled, because it couldn't possibly be worse than what we went through a couple of years ago. Could it? I once thought it couldn't get worse than Chuck Austen. I was clearly wrong.
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