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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 22, 2006 15:12:00 GMT -5
Long story. Basically, Xorn was one of the X-Men, who wore a mask, and became really popular during Grant Morrison's New X-Men. Then, it what is generally regarded as a great move, he was revealed to be Magneto- brilliantly set-up. Then it all went to Hell as Magneto acted TOTALLY, UTTERLY out of character and destroyed New York, before dying. Then other writers explained it away by saying it wasn't really Magneto; he was elsewhere, Xorn was a real person who was possessed by some force and believed he was Magneto. And New Avengers #20 explains it was The Collective Seriously, it is an enormous mistake Marvel has tried to forget.
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Post by thew40 on Jun 22, 2006 15:49:21 GMT -5
But what about Chen Xorn?
I'll admend to my associate docdoom here . . .
Magneto was thought to have been killed when Cassandra Nova destroyed Genosha. Shortly thereafter, the mysterious Xorn joined the X-Men and became a teacher. For a while, he supplied various students the Mutant drug "Kick" and himself starting using it. Xorn then revealed himself as Magneto, destroyed the school, attacked New York and acted way out of character. After he killed Phoenix, Wolverine then killed Xorn/Magneto.
That was that. I assumed that Mangeto was acting out of character because of the trauma of Genosha's destruction and the influence of Kick (which was later revealed to be a part of John Sublime's chemical body - it's Morrison, you gotta roll with stuff like that).
When Mangeto re-appeared on Genosha and hung out with Professor X, he claimed that the Magneto that attacked New York and killed Jean was an imposter - just Xorn. At about the same time, a younger Xorn named Chen Xorn appeared in China and hooked up with the X-Men. He later went his own way.
It was theorized that Scarlet Witch (cuz she was going crazy) had brought her father back to life and made him nicer (as he was on Genosha), somehow creating a seperate Xorn (Chen Xorn) at the same time. In doing so, Magneto had his memory wiped of all the goings on in New York.
But now? I don't know. I like the idea that Xorn was the Collective, but there was no explanation about it. How did Xorn survive? Is this Chen Xorn? At the end of the day, this should not have been an Avengers story. It should have been an X-Men story.
I thought that this issue was the weakest of the arc. The first half was great - Magneto shouting "Xorn!" (the tension leading up to it) and the quasi-ressurection of the Acolytes. Brillant. But then what happened? The art just did not convey what was happening. The panels were too cluttered. Add to that no real explanation and yeah, this was a disappointing issue.
And Alpha Flight is dead? I thought it was confirmed that they survived.
I have high hopes for next arc. With Iron Man and Hill getting along, it'll be an interesting ingredient to "Civil War." Since "New Avengers Disassembled" is supposed to be more character-driven, it should work to Bendis' best skills.
~W~
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Jun 22, 2006 16:54:58 GMT -5
Read it for free. I can't bear to buy this crap. I can't decide if NewVengers is one of the stupidest ideas ever, or THE stupidest idea ever; then Xorn came a long and made up my mind. Dear lord, there's updwards of 100k people buying and reading this crap - WOW.
It's 90's all over again.
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Post by bobc on Jun 23, 2006 10:10:46 GMT -5
You're not implying that Bendis is introducing tons of pointless subplots that lead nowhere, are you? That never happens. Were there lots of people standing around talking?
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Post by Van Plexico on Jun 23, 2006 10:15:16 GMT -5
As far as Bendis issues go, this wasn't the worst of the lot, by far. But then, that's a pretty low bar to hurdle, at this point.
So many things continue to bother me about Bendis's writing on this series. The pacing is just awful. There's no built-up sense of danger and suspense, other than the brief moment there with the SHIELD Director. Bendis just sort of shows you things, without really working at making them exciting-- making them seem important and worthwhile.
Go back and read a Shooter, Michelinie, Stern, or Busiek issue, for example, and see how the story is crafted to build suspense and make you care about the people in it and what happens to them. Then read a Bendis issue of this series--it's like watching a report on the evening news about it. Blah.
Worst part of all-- I read it right after reading ULTIMATES 2 #11, which was VASTLY superior. See my thoughts about that issue in the Ultimates forum.
Oh, and I knew all about Xorn, having read the trades of Morrison's X-MEN run-- and I still didn't much get it. But Bendis doesn't seem terribly worried that you do. Exactly the same way Echo was handled. *sigh*
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Post by bobc on Jun 23, 2006 10:27:26 GMT -5
Van isn't it a bit sad that every review has to start with 'well, it wasn't the worst issue ever" or "well, it wasn't as hideous as last time" or "Bendis is getting better--last month NA was like watching paint dry, but this month it was more like waiting for grass to grow!!!"
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Jun 23, 2006 10:56:04 GMT -5
I think it's really sad that I've stayed with this book as long as I have merely because they put the name "Avengers" on it. There's $60 I've wasted.
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Post by bobc on Jun 23, 2006 11:33:18 GMT -5
I know whatcha mean. I stopped buying it months ago, and I've purchased every Avengers issue since 1973. I've said this before--I've stuck with the Avengers through the good times and the low points, seen great stories, mediocre stories and craptastic ones. But I've never seen a writer destroy the IDENTITY of this team until Bendis came along. It's criminal.
I'm not sure what's going on with Marvel today. It seems like the people running the show don't know or care about the characters. I'm not seeing anything exciting outisde of the Ultimate universe.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 23, 2006 23:20:05 GMT -5
I must say I loved this issue. Not so much because of the Xorn thing since I haven't been reading X-Men and was totally lost. Not so much because Agent Hill finally showed a bit of decency by listening to the president who wanted to blow the Avengers up (Wow, what a great world leader), and not so much because of the great character development with...wait, I'm sure there was someone... BUT I loved the issue for one reason and one reason alone: The words "New Avengers Disassembled" in the next issue blurb. Over the course of the past 20 issues, this is the best thing to happen yet.
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Post by von Bek on Jun 24, 2006 12:11:32 GMT -5
So, after 20 odd issues we will get "New Avengers Disassembled"... Man, after less than 2 years and they have already run out of ideas...
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Post by Yellowjacket on Jun 26, 2006 9:27:23 GMT -5
It's 90's all over again. No, at least the art is way better now. I´m not kidding, I mean it. No comments on the story, the sides (in this forum) have been choosen.
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Post by bobc on Jun 26, 2006 9:33:08 GMT -5
I agree, YJ. At least Finch's art was good, which kept the whole thing from being salvagable
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Post by dlw66 on Jun 26, 2006 13:26:56 GMT -5
I have issue 19, 20, plus the annual still sitting in the comic room. I haven't been able to bring myself to read them yet.
Ultron, after reading the Xorn stuff above, comics reading these days does seem pretty bleak. I am now affirmed as to why I gave up on X-Men 12 years ago...
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Post by bobc on Jun 26, 2006 13:50:05 GMT -5
I gave up on the X-Men too--right around the time Storm got a Mohawk and all that Brood crap started up.
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Post by dlw66 on Jun 26, 2006 16:05:22 GMT -5
I was out of comics from 1980-late 1984 because they weren't "cool" when I was in high school. Then I woke up...
I must say, bobc, given our mutual disdain for Mr. Milgrom's art (this is addressed in another thread -- sorry!), I would have felt about those approximately-four-years of Avengers much like I've felt about Mr. Bendis' run these past three years!!
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Alaric
New Avenger
Fear the A!
Posts: 9
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Post by Alaric on Jun 26, 2006 18:24:48 GMT -5
I gave up on the X-Men too--right around the time Storm got a Mohawk and all that Brood crap started up. That was a good time to quit.
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Post by bobc on Jun 26, 2006 18:37:44 GMT -5
Yeah. Storm was really interesting because she was the first really powerful female superhero--and she was really beautiful and unusual looking. So of course they took her powers away and made her look hideous. Then when every person currently living turned out to be a mutant, I lost all interest. I was sick of Wolverine, too.
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Alaric
New Avenger
Fear the A!
Posts: 9
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Post by Alaric on Jun 26, 2006 18:47:36 GMT -5
Yeah. Storm was really interesting because she was the first really powerful female superhero--and she was really beautiful and unusual looking. So of course they took her powers away and made her look hideous. Then when every person currently living turned out to be a mutant, I lost all interest. I was sick of Wolverine, too. Wolverine was a great character, back when he sometimes lost fights, wasn't a samurai, and had a lot of character flaws other than basic bloodthirsty-ness. By the second or third time we saw him holding back one of his teammates from a downed foe, with the standard "Funny, I thought I'd be the one holding you back" speach, I knew success had ruined him- and things only got worse after that...
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Post by bobc on Jun 27, 2006 9:23:05 GMT -5
The whole team was great--in fairness, it must be hard to continue a series year after year without getting stale, but good God.
Hey for those of you still buying NA--has Wolverine actually done anything yet in those pages? Seriously.
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Jun 27, 2006 12:28:12 GMT -5
I think he's having tea for two with the Sentry.
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Post by dlw66 on Jun 27, 2006 12:36:21 GMT -5
WHAT HAS ANYONE DONE IN THIS BOOK? ??
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Post by imperiusrex on Jun 27, 2006 13:30:12 GMT -5
WHAT HAS ANYONE DONE IN THIS BOOK? ?? said it before and will say it again; this is the "seinfeld" of comics. Nothing actually happens. However to be fair to Seinfeld, the show was funny. Not that bendis isn't occasionally humorous; the bit with sentry wondering if everyone else was hearing voices was funny. of course I'd be a little worried if the most powerful guy on the team was certfiably insane as opposed to wanda who bendis decided was crazy. horrible issue, no explanation of xorn, his powers or even why we should care. that's strike one two and three right there. even with dr. doom you should do a little something to just background new readers. every comic is someone's first and if new avengers 20 was mine, it would be my last. what even happened at the end? i seem to remember sentry flying to the sun which is straight out of really bad 1960s issues of superman and other assorted hard to decipher things happening, but nothing of a real ending...
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Post by bobc on Jun 27, 2006 14:23:02 GMT -5
Sigh. I could have answered my own question I guess. Sigh again.
Unfortunately the "Seinfeld" analogy seems tragically accurate.
Uhhhh am I the only one wondering if maybe Bendis has developed a problem? I mean the randomness of his stories these days, the plots going nowhere, the incoherent and inaccurate historical references---seesm like maybe something's wrong.
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Jun 27, 2006 22:01:20 GMT -5
I gave up on the X-Men so many years ago I can't remember, How many titls do they have now? GHAD it's so boring.
I took a little trip back to 1975 - 1978 of the FF this weekend, I forgot how realy good Marvel was back then. Real writers, real artist and stories that went some where.
I subscribe to NA s I'm stuck for a few more issues but after that they had better come up ith something otherthan this crap if I'm ever gonna buy another book from these guys. And I suggest we all boycott this crap until they are ready to do something we want to buy.
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Post by thew40 on Jun 27, 2006 22:44:33 GMT -5
See . . . this is exactly why I don't by here very often anymore. All these talkback threads go on in the same.
"I hate BENDIS! I can't wait until he's off the book. I dropped Avengers for the first time 27 years. It's bad and stupid. I wish things were like how they were 15, 20, or 30 years ago. Man, comics suck."
It ain't going to change, so why does everyone keep rehashing their opinion?
~W~
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Post by dlw66 on Jun 27, 2006 23:00:12 GMT -5
thew40 --
It's a shame if you stopped coming by. I never disparaged your right to stay behind Bendis' work. As I've said elsewhere, I thoroughly enjoy his work on Ultimate Spider-Man, and as I've also said, his Daredevil work comes highly recommended to me -- I've just never gotten around to reading it, so I can't comment on it specifically. I, and I'd imagine most other posters here, have nothing personal against the man. My complaints, as are those of many other posters on these New Avengers threads, are professional.
The man has taken one of Marvel's flagship titles and junked it. Plain and simple -- walked all over it. I was similarly unhappy with John Byrne when he worked the Vision over in WCA around 12 years ago. However, Byrne had a strong enough background with other titles I enjoyed that I was willing to work with him. I grew to appreciate what he was trying to do (although it never completely grew on me)... I have "donated" $3 a month to Marvel for the past 20 months and don't feel I'm getting closer to that same appreciation. Simply put, I don't know where this book is going, and what's worse, it hasn't really been anywhere!!
So don't go away mad; just understand the passion of some of the "grumpy old men" around here. And I'm not opposed to change -- Spider-Man in a black costume? Marvel Girl to Phoenix? Luke Cage in the FF? Those are all things that were shocking in their time, but that worked and made sense. I dealt with those changes and felt better for it. I'm just not getting the same bang for my buck this time around.
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Post by imperiusrex on Jun 28, 2006 1:07:44 GMT -5
See . . . this is exactly why I don't by here very often anymore. All these talkback threads go on in the same. "I hate BENDIS! I can't wait until he's off the book. I dropped Avengers for the first time 27 years. It's bad and stupid. I wish things were like how they were 15, 20, or 30 years ago. Man, comics suck." It ain't going to change, so why does everyone keep rehashing their opinion? ~W~ actually at some point it will change; that's the nature of the business. five years or ten or whatever, it will change. second, not everyone said "I hate Bendis" as you claim. I didn't say I hate Bendis- I compared the tone of the book to seinfeld (in that nothing happens- which I think is true- look at Spider Woman and Sentry two secondary characters whose stories were explored in miniseries outside the Avengers monthly title- why didn't these stories take place within the framework of the monthly book and explore them, it would've been much more exciting and established the characters better than the echo storyline did, in my opinion...) and commented on the fact that he did nothing to establish Xorn to the readers. the second point is absolutely valid; Joe Q had to go on newsrama and explain Xorn in his last weekly posting. that's a big sticking point. I think you're oversimplifying our complaints and giving them short shrift; it's really a disservice and weakens your statement. there's plenty of real stuff to work with and you should challenge us on that. it makes for better discussion.
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Jun 28, 2006 10:21:24 GMT -5
It ain't going to change, so why does everyone keep rehashing their opinion? ~W~ Because it's a Forum? I bet if you go to BENDIS!'s Forum you'll have dozens of thousands of posts claming how amazing the guy is, on and on again, in circles, for quite a few years now. I'll actually claim that active criticism has more place in a Forum than circle jerking. Now, if someone wanted to praise BENDIS!'s work and couldn't, now that'd be a 1st amendement violation. But apparently, few do, because few don't. If BENDIS! or any true believers wish to change these opinions, perhaps it'd be good of him to try writting better opposed to silencing those who do not appreciate his "work". Of course, i am assuming he can do such a thing, which may be a wrong assumption of me. I'm here guessing, that around somewhere in the lost 90's someone was complaining about Liefeld's excess pouches. Too bad no one listened until it was too late - And Marvel bankrupt.
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Post by bobc on Jun 28, 2006 12:18:16 GMT -5
Right on, Ultron. You know, people have some serious, very real issues with Bendis' train-wreck called the New Avengers. Bad dialogue, incorrect historical references, zero action, characters who don't behave the way they have for forty years, blah blah blah. These are valid criticisms.
After putting tens of thousands of dollars into Marvels coffers over the years, I think I and others here can be allowed to mouth off a little in a goofy comic forum.
I have asked the Bendis moonies to explain what exactly is so good about what he's done with the Avengers, and they basically can't explain a thing. Yeah they might say it's cool to have Spiderwoman around again, or maybe NA has a few funny lines in it from time to time, but beyond that, nothing.
I can handle incompetent writers, but I can't handle people carrying on like Bendis is the greatest writer ever to walk the earth. It's depressing that people actually expect so little these days.
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