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Post by sharkar on Aug 1, 2012 15:02:55 GMT -5
I wasn't around back then, but as far as Mantis' popularity goes, I just imagine a Vietnamese heroic character might have been tough to sell in the early and mid 70s. Oh, I don't think that would have made her a "hard sell" at all; if anything such a background likely would have made her more appealing and sympathetic to American teenagers and young adults--in other words, to a good portion of Marvel's core audience back then. At that point in time, it was the American government that was more apt to be seen as persona non grata (and Englehart dealt with that angle in Cap's Secret Empire arc). If you have these old Avengers issues, check out the letters: IIRC, there weren't letters criticizing Mantis on the grounds of her background, at least not in the letters that Marvel printed (or had their interns write ). Mantis was (by design) not the most likeable character, but it wasn't because she was half-Vietnamese. It was because her role in the Avengers series was that of the spoiler in the romance of two beloved Avengers; and because of her increasingly shoddy treatment of the poor Swordsman (she achieved redemption when she married that tree). And as our esteemed colleague HB recently said over in the Avengers Volume 3 thread: "Exactly like a soap opera, right? If folks were married and happy and healthy, why in the world would anyone tune in?" But her less-than-savory antics kept readers enthralled; again, take a look at the letters. Of course, the above is simply the humble opinion of this one...(sorry, couldn't resist ;D )
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Post by ultron69 on Aug 10, 2012 16:21:41 GMT -5
I liked last week's episode (though it didn't blow me away) but I have to wonder if they'll show what happens when they try to round up the prisoners. I can't believe they'll all go quetly back in their cells, though Cap can be pretty persuasive. Interesting that he wouldn't let Zemo out. Who says Cap doesn't hold a grudge? Annihilus was pretty powerful, another new character taking on all the Avengers. His powers seemed different here, as well as their source, with that energy field.
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Post by spiderwasp on Aug 11, 2012 8:18:55 GMT -5
I liked last week's episode (though it didn't blow me away) but I have to wonder if they'll show what happens when they try to round up the prisoners. I can't believe they'll all go quetly back in their cells, though Cap can be pretty persuasive. Interesting that he wouldn't let Zemo out. Who says Cap doesn't hold a grudge? Annihilus was pretty powerful, another new character taking on all the Avengers. His powers seemed different here, as well as their source, with that energy field. I also liked the episode - quite a bit in fact. The failure to release Zemo seemed a bit funny to me. Cap was willing to release everyone else, no matter how serious their crimes were or how dangerous they had proven to be but not the person who had wronged him personally. I'm not sure that was really in character for him but I guess it proves that even Captain America is human in the end. Otherwise, I really enjoyed the story.
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Post by ultron69 on Aug 11, 2012 12:00:30 GMT -5
I agree, Spiderwasp. I thought it was a bit out of character for Cap to not free Zemo, but like you say, it proves he's human.
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Post by drew on Aug 14, 2012 2:39:29 GMT -5
To be fair to Cap, he refuses to release Zemo because he's "too dangerous." In EMH Zemo is basically evil Cap, like the Red Skull. They are skilled, devious, and will stop at nothing and hurt anyone they have to to win. Abomination wants to crush the Hulk, Blizzard wants money, Executioner is kept in place by Amora. Cap is kept in check by his morality and sense of right and wrong; Zemo doesn't have that. He can't be trusted, especially as your backup plan. I don't think it was personal at all, just a tactical decision. I wouldn't trust Hitler or Charles Manson to watch my back either.
As for Anihhilus, I don't really know a lot about him aside from the Annihilation Wave storyline but this seemed a pretty fair representation. He wants to kill anything that might pose a threat to him. In that sense, EMH did him justice.
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Post by ultron69 on Aug 19, 2012 17:55:19 GMT -5
Drew, having read a bunch of Annihulus stories from old Fantastic Four magazines, this one was not too much like that, but I haven't followed Marvel comics much in the past 20 years, so maybe he's been changed to the point where this is a fair representation.
I have to say, for the first half of the last episode ("Ultron Unlimited") I was somewhat annoyed at the mere premise - that there were robots impersonating the Avengers, right after we just finished the Skrull storyline. I did warm up to it a bit after a while though. It was nice to see the Rodney Dangerfield of Avengers, Jocasta, howerver briefly, and it looks like Vision will be an Avenger now.
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Post by drew on Aug 20, 2012 8:45:59 GMT -5
Yeah robot double thing was a bit too soon. But seeing Clint play around with the energy shield, Cap's subterfuge, Jocasta, Cap saving Vision, and adamantium Ultron were all pretty cool.
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Post by drew on Aug 20, 2012 12:21:47 GMT -5
I found it more amazing (and never explained) why Reed Richards thought it was a good idea to build a Negative Zone prison in the first place. In the comics he had already encountered Annihilus, Blastaar, and presumably other inhabitants of the zone. So why build anything there? EMH Reed has a better excuse, but he didn't think to explore the zone a little first? I'd like to see Reed portrayed a bit more like he was in the Waid run, that is much more than a brain with legs. FF Inc. is a business, so why not play up Reed as kind of a Steve Jobs tech and people savvy eccentric instead of an absent minded poor husband type? Yes, Tony Stark would be very similar, but the way Reed is usually portrayed is very close to usual portrayals of Hank Pym, who became a much more dynamic and fun character in recent years.
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Post by ultron69 on Aug 20, 2012 13:25:22 GMT -5
Yeah, seeing Clint play around with the energy shield, Cap's subterfuge, Jocasta, Cap saving Vision, and adamantium Ultron were all pretty cool, which is why I eventually warmed up to the episode.
I haven't read Waid's run, though I've heard very good things about it. I prefer Reed as a scientist who cares about gaining knowledge and makes beaucoup bucks from his inventions only because he needs the money for more experiments, but to each his (or her) own).
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Post by drew on Aug 20, 2012 15:24:35 GMT -5
Best issue Waid wrote explains why the FF are different, but in a logical way. The FF are having a revenue dip, so Sue hires an image consultant. This poor guy has to follow around the FF for a week, then tell his bosses how to make FF Inc. more profitable. At the end of the week the guy recommends that aren't super-heroes, not really, but explorers, and before that, people. After the guy leaves Reed explains to his infant daughter that he feels guilty for making his friends into freaks, and while he could let them hide (X-Men) he decided to make them gaudy costumes, a headquarters in one of the largest cities on Earth, and codenames. He wanted the whole world to see how fantastic his family really was, and maybe he could be forgiven for his mistake one day. So he turned a potential negative into a positive, but it's a secret he's carried and has felt guilty about ever since the accident.
It really fleshed out Reed as a character. It was much more interesting than an egghead who ignores his wife and kids. Marvel started on the idea of grounding their comics in relative realism, and it showed Reed as a human being and as trying to protect his family. In his arrogance he ruined their lives potentially, much as Spider-Man hurt his family by being conceited. Also bear in mind his son is a mutant, his second child was stillborn and the third all had complications, all due to the cosmic rays the flight crew were bathed in. Any rational, compassionate human would feel guilty about that. The issue in question wasn't without humor though; apparently Johnny and Ben constantly use the time platform to visit Davy Crockett and try to help him, but something always goes awry, and Reed has to fix it. Later in the run, they have to visit Heaven to retreive Ben's soul and meet God... and it's Jack Kirby. God/Jack gets a phone call, and when asked who it was, he says "my collaborator, 'nuff said." Waid's run might not be everyone's cup of tea, but by and large it was well done with beautiful artwork by the late Mike Wieringo. I certainly recommend it to any FF or Marvel fans.
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Post by ultron69 on Sept 13, 2012 9:38:25 GMT -5
I finally got around to seeing Yellowjacket". A good episode, though once again they really power up a "new" character. Hank handling Cap and T'Challa in hand to hand combat? I think not!!
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Post by humanbelly on Sept 13, 2012 11:46:46 GMT -5
once again they really power up a "new" character. Hank handling Cap and T'Challa in hand to hand combat? I think not!! Wow, uh-- no. No, not gonna happen. That's. . . a bit careless on the writers'/creators' parts, wouldn't we say? T'Challa-- trained from childhood; Cap-- intensive, elite military training (+ sup.sold.serum); Hank-- long, grueling hours perched on a lab-stool. . . occasionally broken up with scampering around in an ant-hill. I dunno-- seems like an awfully unbalanced equation to me. . . Has anybody ever speculated on how the heck ol' scientist Hank managed to keep and maintain that astonishingly buff physique of his? Especially since he was usually portrayed in earlier years as being (probably) in his late-ish 30's? Sheesh. . . all of his peers in the scientific community must have hated his flippin' GUTS--!
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Post by ultron69 on Sept 13, 2012 13:40:24 GMT -5
HB, I think it's because comic book artists don't know how else to draw somebody other than totally buff. I'd also wondered the same about ol' hammerin'' Hank, but not only him. I remember an issue of the Legion of Super-Heroes from the 80's where Brainiac 5 (as far as lab rats go, this guy makes Hank look like a slacker) made a self deprecating remark about his disdain for working out, and yet the guy was drawing with six pack abs, right in that very same issue. I also remember some JSA issue (I can't remember, but I think it was from the past decade) where Wildcats, probably in his 50's made some remark about how he's getting a spare tire in his old age (well, that was the gist of the remark, anyway) and again, he was drawn with the six pack. Go figure. I'd also wondered why telekenetics would be in good shape, since they wouldn't really have to even get up at all, even to get themselves a beer.
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Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Sept 14, 2012 15:19:01 GMT -5
Unless your name is Steve Ditko... . ;D
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Post by humanbelly on Sept 14, 2012 18:58:21 GMT -5
Unless your name is Steve Ditko... . ;D Yep, Steve knew how to capture the physicality of the skinny hero, didn't he? With Wildcat, I do have to say that many of the artists in the last couple of JSA runs did a subtle, commendable job of making his body look- well- thicker. Not fatter, mind you, but I seem to recall that guys who have stayed in top condition for decades on end do inevitably become heftier, even if that heft is simply more muscle mass. Man, I wonder if bobc's still lurking around these days? He's a bit of a weight-lifter, and I bet he could speak authoritatively. But I always appreciated that this older Wildcat was consistently drawn with the physique of a first-rate fighter who hasn't let up training for, like, 50 years. HB
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Post by drew on Sept 15, 2012 0:33:58 GMT -5
There was a version of a grown up B5 (before the endless reboots) where he had a gut, long hair, and was balding. It made a lot of sense, but also Coluans could have invented some kind of metabolism booster. As for Hank, I don't really know unless he shunted his excess weight with Pym particles.
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Post by humanbelly on Sept 21, 2012 19:03:48 GMT -5
HB, I think it's because comic book artists don't know how else to draw somebody other than totally buff. I'd also wondered the same about ol' hammerin'' Hank, but not only him. I remember an issue of the Legion of Super-Heroes from the 80's where Brainiac 5 (as far as lab rats go, this guy makes Hank look like a slacker) made a self deprecating remark about his disdain for working out, and yet the guy was drawing with six pack abs, right in that very same issue. I also remember some JSA issue (I can't remember, but I think it was from the past decade) where Wildcats, probably in his 50's made some remark about how he's getting a spare tire in his old age (well, that was the gist of the remark, anyway) and again, he was drawn with the six pack. Go figure. I'd also wondered why telekenetics would be in good shape, since they wouldn't really have to even get up at all, even to get themselves a beer. I meant to mention--- the other obvious character with this problem was Johnny Storm. This kid (especially when inked by Sinnott, regardless of the penciler) was always FIERCELY CUT in that FF bodysuit (esp. the red one, I think)-- but what the heck did he do that kept him so buff?? His powers had nothing to do with muscular exertion. Heck, probably not even cardio. I'm sure we've seen him in the "training room" a time or two over the years (although no instances come to mind), but heck, Johnny's entire personality is such that he'd do anything to shag off a dull Physical Fitness training regimen. Oh brother. . . HB
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Post by drew on Sept 22, 2012 0:26:40 GMT -5
I think it was mentioned somewhere that Johnny's flame powers basically burn calories. In another FF issue, they mention Reed invented an ice cream that burns as many calories as a rugby match.
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Post by humanbelly on Sept 22, 2012 5:21:06 GMT -5
I think it was mentioned somewhere that Johnny's flame powers basically burn calories. In another FF issue, they mention Reed invented an ice cream that burns as many calories as a rugby match. Those both sound familiar. . . and I daresay they both sound awfully Stan Lee-ish-- ("Science?? We don' need no stinkin' science-!") Heh. Building muscle mass, of course, can't be accomplished by the simple elimination of calories, as it were. Heck, Johnny should have been perpetually emaciated under that scenario. Which, come to think of it, would have been a rather interesting consequence of his powers, and would have been closer to making sense. Sort of like when Wally West was forced to ingest huge amounts of food to keep up with the enormous caloric toll his speed powers took. But I'm tangent-ing shamelessly, here. Oh, hey! I picked up the animated Hulk vs Wolverine/Hulk vs Thor DVD at Target on a steep discount. Watched the first one, and it really was quite a bit better than I would have expected-! Enjoyed it very much. HB
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Post by drew on Sept 23, 2012 2:01:38 GMT -5
HB that is so obvious I feel embarrassed it didn't occur to me. In the Ultimate line Johnny had to periodically go into a coma and shed his skin because, well, he's on fire constantly and his epidermis had to renew itself. Of course the Ultimate FF were all a bunch of skinny kids so buffness was never an issue. The food thing would have been neat though. I never understood why no other speedster except Wally needed to eat so much (okay Barry Allen on the TV show but that was based partially on Flash comics at the time which starred Wally.) Congrats on your good deal! The Wolverine one is slightly better than the Thor bit, IMO, but they are both pretty good. I would like to see Cyber at some point, since adamantium skin seems like a way to kick Wolverine around, but Omega Red and Deadpool were pretty good. I love Sabretooth, but he wasn't portrayed very well. I did like Fred Tatasciore returning as the Hulk and Steve Blum as Logan; those guys seem to have cornered the market on their respective characters and for good reason: they are the best they are at what they do. (couldn't resist.)
I'm pretty sure next week the adaption of the Dark Knight Returns comes out; perhaps the holiday season might result in you getting it cheap. I've seen some of it, and honestly it's about as good of an adaption as we're going to see. Peter Weller (Robocop) voices Batman, and he's quite good. I still prefer Michael Ironside from the Batman TAS episode Legends of the Dark Knight, and I'd love the hear Bryan Cranston (Breaking Bad) voice Batman. He's already voiced Jim Gordon, so maybe?
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Post by ultron69 on Sept 23, 2012 8:39:55 GMT -5
I agree about speedsters. I liked the way Wally was constantly eating. It made sense. Then again, Superman should probably be eating a million calories too, as moving planets is a lot of work!
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Post by ultron69 on Sept 27, 2012 12:59:03 GMT -5
I really liked the last episode a lot. I'm not too fond of the government turning on our superheroes plots, but this one turned out very well, and had lots of good action to boot. Thor vs Red Hulk! Rematch, anyone?
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Post by drew on Oct 9, 2012 23:35:17 GMT -5
I'm just happy we got to see the Falcon and Winter Soldier. Recently they showed the Spider-man and Cap episode. The new series has very big shoes to fill.
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Post by ultron69 on Oct 10, 2012 8:26:48 GMT -5
You're right about that, Drew. I like how they handled Winter Soldier, but I didn't much care for the Falcon being a government crony.
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Post by ultron69 on Oct 15, 2012 7:36:23 GMT -5
I enjoyed the Red Hulk episode. Also, the last episode with Kang was pretty good. It strikes me that, as we know that the second season is the last, we've seen a lot more of Kang than of Ultron. hmm...
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Post by drew on Oct 16, 2012 23:41:37 GMT -5
I've seen a couple of stills of Avengers Assemble! the replacement to EMH, and it does not look good. Big surprise, right? It's got the Hulk, Cap, Thor, Iron Man, Black Widow, Red Arro- wait, that's supposed to be Hawkeye? and the Falcon. Hoping for the best, but not expecting it.
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Post by ultron69 on Oct 17, 2012 15:05:05 GMT -5
So, with the exception of the Falcon (who is rumored to be in the sequel) it's got the same Avengers as in the movie. Well, it's got a tough act to follow, but I will continue to hope.
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Post by ultron69 on Oct 22, 2012 11:50:45 GMT -5
I thought the last episode ("Operation Galactic Storm") was great, but I hope what it looks like happened at the end, didn't really happen!
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Post by drew on Oct 22, 2012 20:21:37 GMT -5
I thought I'd seen all the episodes (plus a lot of episodes on my DVR are mislabeled) so seeing a new episode was a real treat. I'm pretty sure all the Avengers survive. It was nice to see Kang's prophecy fulfilled. Kang is a great villain. Not as cool as Ultron or Doc Doom, but still awesome.
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Post by ultron69 on Oct 23, 2012 9:02:04 GMT -5
Yup. Speaking of Ultron, we didn't see much of him. Still, with his complicated backstory, maybe they thought it would eat up too many episodes to do him properly.
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