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Post by starfoxxx on Jul 17, 2009 14:47:13 GMT -5
Well, since Slott is not up to snuff with his Mighty Avengers, and Bendis likes to put "hot" heroes like Spidey and Wolverine on his New Avengers team, I think a team consisting of "proven" heroes that sell could be the answer for an Avengers team that would make EVERYONE happy. How about a roster consisting of Marvel heroes who have their own books (like the ORIGINAL concept), since these characters obviously are POPULAR enough to have their own title??
Captain America (He's back, right?)
Iron Man
Thor
Black Panther
Ms. Marvel (the REAL one, thank you)
Spider-Woman
Iron Fist
with a competent, respectful writer, this would be a team to bring the Avengers back to greatness, and it SHOULD sell very well. What do you think?
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 17, 2009 18:21:22 GMT -5
After NA, I just can't bring myself to think of Spider-Woman as an Avenger. Yeah, I know she'd been in the book before (back in the early '80's), but this latest shoe-horning and gloryfying still doesn't sit well with me. I also feel funny about Iron Fist, but I don't really have a better suggestion at the moment...
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Post by spiderwasp on Jul 18, 2009 15:13:02 GMT -5
Captain America (He's back, right?) Iron Man Thor Black Panther Ms. Marvel (the REAL one, thank you) Spider-Woman Iron Fist with a competent, respectful writer, this would be a team to bring the Avengers back to greatness, and it SHOULD sell very well. What do you think? I might give this line up a shot but I would be very aprehensive. It basically, IMO, has everything wrong with it that is wrong with Marvel. It is designed purely with "This should sell" in mind rather than with "This should be good." I've never been a big Iron Man fan and am so tired of the character these days that I'd love the idea of never seeing him again outside movies (The movie was good). Black Panther is a great character and works well with occasional appearances with the Avengers but I've never thought he worked that well as part of the regular team. He has too many outside interests. Spiderwoman and Iron Fist are two characters that I associate only with the Bendis Avengers and have never particularly cared for as characters. I'm not trying to be mean but this lineup just has limited appeal to me. The best thing about the Avengers, to me, was always the mixing of characters who had their own series with ones who didn't with all of them having equal importance. I would honestly rather read the title with only characters who don't have their own books than with only characters that do but then again, I'm not what Marvel is writing for so I am in complete agreement with you that this title would sell far better than any lineup I would like better. |
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Post by Shiryu on Jul 18, 2009 17:21:43 GMT -5
The problem, I fear, is that the classic line-ups we like the most wouldn't sell all that well. Cap is doing very well in his book, but is Bucky, and it's mostly thanks to Brubaker. In NA he hasn't really caused any major change one way or the other as far as I know. Iron Man was #30 in the sales list for June, Black Panther #71, Ms Marvel #85.
I know many won't like this, but I believe that, if we want good sales, at least one between Spidey and Wolverine should stay in the book on a fairly regular basis, acting as a sort of bonus to keep all those who buy NA long enough for them to start caring about the rest of the line-up.
So I'd say
Cap (Steve or Bucky. While I definitely want Steve back long term, Bucky has grown enough to deserve a place at present. After all they had Thor Masterson for a while ^^'')
Thor
Spidey
Ms Marvel
Black Widow (she has been prominent in Cap book, and has a history with Bucky)
Hawkeye (Clint Burton obviously)
Machine Man (no idea where he is coming from, but it would be funny to have him around I suppose)
For me, as a reader, this would be enough of a combination between classic and new to be attractive and sell decently.
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 18, 2009 19:51:50 GMT -5
The problem, I fear, is that the classic line-ups we like the most wouldn't sell all that well. Cap is doing very well in his book, but is Bucky, and it's mostly thanks to Brubaker. In NA he hasn't really caused any major change one way or the other as far as I know. Iron Man was #30 in the sales list for June, Black Panther #71, Ms Marvel #85. I know many won't like this, but I believe that, if we want good sales, at least one between Spidey and Wolverine should stay in the book on a fairly regular basis, acting as a sort of bonus to keep all those who buy NA long enough for them to start caring about the rest of the line-up. So I'd say Cap (Steve or Bucky. While I definitely want Steve back long term, Bucky has grown enough to deserve a place at present. After all they had Thor Masterson for a while ^^'') Thor Spidey Ms Marvel Black Widow (she has been prominent in Cap book, and has a history with Bucky) Hawkeye (Clint Burton obviously) Machine Man (no idea where he is coming from, but it would be funny to have him around I suppose) For me, as a reader, this would be enough of a combination between classic and new to be attractive and sell decently. This is a very, very good line-up, Shiryu. 1) Here's the first item of interest: Cap, Thor, Black Widow-- all former chairman/leaders of the "Original" Team; Ms. Marvel-- leader (sort of) of Stark's Mighty Avengers; Hawkeye-- leader of the WCA and the Thunderbolts. Only Spidey and Machine Man aren't accustomed to the mantle of command--- LOTS of possible friction there almost across the board. Personally, I would love to see Hawkeye be the leader of this team, and I'm sure a case could be made for it. But, boy, that's a lot of headstrong Alpha-dogs who are used to giving commands. I know inner-team power struggles have been going on since issue #16, basically, but the beauty of that complication is that it is inevitable, and is always relevant. 2) Hawkeye and Widow-- old flames who have moved on, but still. . . proximity makes things tough! 3) I really, really like Spidey in this group. I think he and Hawkeye (when he's truly himself again) have untapped potential as teammates. They had a terrific issue of MTU together about a million years ago (18, 19,20-- somewhere around there), and it always left me wanting more. 4) Possibly exchange Machine Man with Jocasta? I always like to see a more even distribution of female heroes, and she's right on the edge of becoming a higher profile character in Mighty Av. Yep, once again, Shiryu, you're creating scenarios I'd love to see take flesh--- (I think this whole ancient-translation-job thingy may be taking up too much of your time. . . ) HB |
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Post by Shiryu on Jul 19, 2009 5:05:33 GMT -5
(I think this whole ancient-translation-job thingy may be taking up too much of your time. . . ) This makes two of us thinking this way ;D I actually had considered Jocasta in place of Machine Man, but at present she is so entangled in what's happening over at Mighty Avengers that it's impossible to pull her out, and I'm imaging this line up to replace NA only (a book for a book). Also my team lacks a real scientist, but Spidey and Machine Man together could at least partially make up for it. "Who shall lead them?" is certainly a very good question. I would immediately exclude Bucky and Ms.Marvel. The former would be in the group to learn and grow, turning him in a proficient leader capable of giving orders to the likes of Thor would ruin the entire point; the latter works better as a member than as chairwoman IMO, despite her training she never seemed much of a strategist. Then I would rule out Machine Man, he is too much of a B (or even C) character to suddenly lead Earth's Mightiest. So we have Thor, Spidey, Hawkeye and Black Widow, and all four of them could be intriguing leaders for one reason or another. Spider-Man has the experience, and it would be a tremendous step forward to see him taking such a responsability. However it could only work in some sudden situation in the middle of a battle, possibly with an enemy he knows well and the others do not, but I can't envision him giving regular orders around. Black Widow would be interesting because of how it could affect her relationship with Bucky. He is happy to have her as a partner, but would he accept her orders? and would she stay objective in giving them? But at the end of the day, she is the least poweful member and most likely to be taken out first, so it would soon become odd. So, it's down to Thor and Clint. Out of sheer history and importance, I think Thor should be leader at the beginning and for the first few arcs. Then his Asgard problems would start dividing his attention and Clint could step forward and take or be given leadership. The two of them know and respect each other very well, so the changeover should be painless, and Clint has proved to be a capable leader with the WCA or the Thunderbolts. Wheew, this is a long post ^^ I'll finish with a question: considering how much more important the name of the writer seems to have become now in comparison with the past, to make our teams of Avengers sell well, who shall write them? |
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 19, 2009 10:10:45 GMT -5
(I think this whole ancient-translation-job thingy may be taking up too much of your time. . . ) This makes two of us thinking this way ;D I actually had considered Jocasta in place of Machine Man, but at present she is so entangled in what's happening over at Mighty Avengers that it's impossible to pull her out, and I'm imaging this line up to replace NA only (a book for a book). Also my team lacks a real scientist, but Spidey and Machine Man together could at least partially make up for it. "Who shall lead them?" is certainly a very good question. I would immediately exclude Bucky and Ms.Marvel. The former would be in the group to learn and grow, turning him in a proficient leader capable of giving orders to the likes of Thor would ruin the entire point; the latter works better as a member than as chairwoman IMO, despite her training she never seemed much of a strategist. Then I would rule out Machine Man, he is too much of a B (or even C) character to suddenly lead Earth's Mightiest. So we have Thor, Spidey, Hawkeye and Black Widow, and all four of them could be intriguing leaders for one reason or another. Spider-Man has the experience, and it would be a tremendous step forward to see him taking such a responsability. However it could only work in some sudden situation in the middle of a battle, possibly with an enemy he knows well and the others do not, but I can't envision him giving regular orders around. Black Widow would be interesting because of how it could affect her relationship with Bucky. He is happy to have her as a partner, but would he accept her orders? and would she stay objective in giving them? But at the end of the day, she is the least poweful member and most likely to be taken out first, so it would soon become odd. So, it's down to Thor and Clint. Out of sheer history and importance, I think Thor should be leader at the beginning and for the first few arcs. Then his Asgard problems would start dividing his attention and Clint could step forward and take or be given leadership. The two of them know and respect each other very well, so the changeover should be painless, and Clint has proved to be a capable leader with the WCA or the Thunderbolts. Wheew, this is a long post ^^ I'll finish with a question: considering how much more important the name of the writer seems to have become now in comparison with the past, to make our teams of Avengers sell well, who shall write them? Ahhhhhh, this is BUCKY-Cap you're using-- my mistake. Sadly, I will never be able to get past even the fact of his existence, no matter how well he might be handled or written. Even if he took off the uniform and became an Avenger with a new identity of his own, I would still have trouble conceding his legitimacy. Possibly if he reverted to some adult version of his "Bucky" identity? ("Buck Barnes" or "Agent Barnes" or something like that?) Or a more mainstream, more mentally-stable Winter Soldier-- but, man, never as Cap. Steve would work well in this group because there are, indeed, at least a couple of precedents for his being a member while not being the leader. And I doubt he would be in any shape to fully lead, at this point-- but there would still be the tension of "who's gonna boss Cap around??". Thor is a pickle, 'cause he was really only the Chairman/leader at the very beginning of the team's existence-- and it was a very ill-defined role, at that, considering that there was a monthly meeting chairman rotation-thingy going on in those days. To me, he was sort of "written" as the leader without actually being "declared" the leader. I'm. . . not actually sure I would put him charge. He's a deliberate, pragmatic thinker, and has tremendous focus and resolve--- but his isn't a quick mind. Even in an Asgardian environment, his power levels have always been such that he's been able to rely on physically subduing almost any foe or threat, and not having to rely overmuch on his wits. One of his most endearing qualities, for me, is that he seems to sense this instinctively, and is completely willing to defer leadership to mortals who may be more constitutionally suited to the task. (His occasional passages where he's spoken of his respect for, and loyalty to, Steve Rogers never fail to choke me up.) And I suspect that, if we get Clint back to being himself again, there would be a similar loyalty there as well. I REALLY like your Spidey-thrown-in-charge idea. Pete would absolutely rise to the occasion, and never even realize he was taking command. Kind of like when he beat the bejeebers out of Firelord, in a way. But this would be more a case of the ol' scientist brain seeing the solutions in a complex situation, and getting the right folks to attend to the right problems. He's ALWAYS a lead-by-example-rather-than-by-authority type. You've created another story idea I really, really want to see happen. Wow, who to write it all? Man, I'm not familiar enough with the current writers to know who's well-suited for it. Naturally, I'd say Busiek, but that's not gonna happen. (I've been tracking down a lot of Astro City lately--- boy was that a good series.) I would say the guy who brought back the JSA several years ago--- but wasn't that Geoff Johns? Is he the fellow who's son died, and has since turned to really gruesome, ugly plot elements, like cannibalism, etc? How about Peter David? Is he still around? I don't recall him ever doing a group book-- but, boy, he's a real plot-meister. Or Strazcynskwi? (uh. . . not sure how to spell his name-- just threw in extra consonants to be on the safe side. Good to have spares.) A totally left-field idea: Tad Williams (Fantasy/SF writer)- had a HUGE 4 volume work called "Otherland" several years ago. Sort of a combination of Charles Dickens, cyber punk, Agatha Christie, and any good serialized television program. But larger. Wow-- someone give him a call. . . HB |
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Post by Shiryu on Jul 19, 2009 14:04:10 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, I was also very much against Bucky Cap, it destroyes one of the most important moments in Steve's history and contradicts a zillion past stories.
However, as a general habit in life, I like to attempt to see the glass half full and salvage what can be salvaged. Since we are stuck with Bucky Cap, at least let's try to use him well and make his return something important for the Marvel Universe. So, while I definitely want Steve back to the Avengers long term, I wouldn't mind Bucky for an year or so, so that he can appreciate first hand what Steve had to deal with on almost daily basis.
PS: For a great example of the good and the bad of Thor as leader, I strongly recommend the 4 issue mini Avengers Infinity, by Stern, starring our thunder god with Starfox, Quasar, Moondragon, Tigra and Photon. It's a great story, set in Busiek's era.
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