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Post by michidiers on Feb 11, 2009 10:01:49 GMT -5
Hello, I´m a new member in this forum and greet you all. I´m from Germany and a fan of the Avengercomics of the Vol. I. . During the last month I collected a lot of issues of the Vol. 1 in German or english language.
Two month ago y have bought the issue Vol I, Number 20 on Ebay-Germany. The seller (from Berlin) described the issue in the general selling describition the as a: "short cut edition"!
I had with 3 Euro the hihgest bid and bought the issue. 3 Euro is a very low price for an issue like this in germany in good/very good condition. A few days later i received the postmail with the issue. Describiton: - at the top it´s accurate cutted for near 1 cm (1/3 inch). - both normal clips in the folder are missing, - through the whole issue are six lttle holes of three ancient clips (?) near the folder from the cover to the last side. It looks like the issue were affixed at anything. I don´t know, what this can be.
The issue ist otherwise in very good condition, without kinks or else. Like no one readed it before. I´m assured that ist is no reprint, smells and looks like original other issues. It scents like other originals of the 60th.
No one in german community knows something about an issue like that, not even the seller!
I got a foto here too, but I don´t know to fit it in.
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 11, 2009 11:16:48 GMT -5
Hi, welcome to the AA boards! I don't think I've ever heard of such edition. Sharkar is our Silver Age Marvel expert, so the might be more helpful, but in the meantime can you tell me exactly which date is on the cover? (month and year). That will make it easier to identify it. It's in English, right? For the cover, you can upload it at www.tinypic.com and post the link here
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Post by michidiers on Feb 11, 2009 13:19:27 GMT -5
Thanks! Yes, it is an US-issue in english! Not a German.
On the top of the cover isn´t publiced a year. Only the number 20 and the month (SEPT). The date in the imprint at the back of the cover is : September 1965! Sorry: With the "foto" in my last article I mean that I got here on my laptop a foto of my own issue Nr. 20.
And I don´t know how to upload it here.
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Post by scottharris on Feb 11, 2009 14:00:38 GMT -5
Howdy.
I'm not familiar with this either. If you have the ebay auction number, we might be able to look it up and see the photos that the seller posted, if the auction included any photos.
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 11, 2009 14:28:16 GMT -5
I had a look at the Silver Age Marvel Comics Index, and for September 1965 it only has the regular Avengers 20 cover www.samcci.comics.org/months/1965-09.htmTo upload a photo here, go to www.tinypic.com and select the "upload photo" button, to upload the file from your laptop. It will then give oyu several links, just post here the one for message boards and forum. Or, as Scott said, post the link for the ebay transaction.
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Feb 11, 2009 20:03:33 GMT -5
I'm on the edge of my seat for this. I love foreign printed issues, and if I ever manage to finish by US editions, I want to start on the Mexican Vengadores.
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Post by sharkar on Feb 11, 2009 20:13:57 GMT -5
I'm not familiar with the term as it applies to comics, and I don't recall any "shortcut editions" back then (in the '60s), but perhaps these were printed for special distribution (to a school, or library, etc.)... or for promotional purposes. The term suggests it's an abridged version of that issue. I'd love to know if your copy is complete in terms of the story (20 pages), 2 pages of letters, house ads, other ads, etc...the comic should contain 16 physical pages in total (not including front and back covers). And -- welcome to the AA! community, michidiers! The gorgeous Kirby cover
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Post by sharkar on Feb 11, 2009 21:41:15 GMT -5
Describiton: - at the top it´s accurate cutted for near 1 cm (1/3 inch). - both normal clips in the folder are missing, - through the whole issue are six lttle holes of three ancient clips (?) near the folder from the cover to the last side. It looks like the issue were affixed at anything. I don´t know, what this can be. Based on what you're describing --what with the holes and the missing "clips" (staples)--it almost sounds as if the issue was in a looseleaf notebook.
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Post by michidiers on Feb 13, 2009 11:20:05 GMT -5
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Post by michidiers on Feb 13, 2009 11:39:35 GMT -5
Ok, i see that it works. In my last post you see a photo of two of my issues, Avengers 20 and 21 of the Vol.1. At the right it´s my common original US-Avenger Comic No 21 to compair the measure to my mumber 20. I ´ve drawn with my laptop 6 arrows on the photo of the cover no 20. At the pikes of the arrows are each 6 (3 x 2) holes, i suspect they are from former three staples. It looks like the issue were pinned at something. The normal staples in the folder are missing, too. The story is complete with 20 pages and got 12 pages promotion (1 page for FF 43, ASM 29, ToS 70) and i´m assured that this is an original common issue. If you klick the link you can see a bigger picture!
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 13, 2009 17:53:23 GMT -5
That's so strange. If not for the different format, it would look like a printing error. Besides the lack of staples, are the pages binded? for example the first and the last should be on the same sheet of paper. I'm inclined to think that Sharkar is right (wouldn't be the first time ^^) and it's a special distribution for a school, perhaps to go in a folder. Nevertheless, it seems we have quite a mistery here Where is Batman when you need him? ^^
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Post by michidiers on Feb 14, 2009 3:42:58 GMT -5
The frontcover und backcover is one normal sheet of paper. The pages 1, 2 and 31, 32 are one sheet of paper and so on. That ist normal paper like in the common issues.
It ist enigmatic for me too, and I´m so interested in the history of this ussue. And how can an uncommon comic like that find such a long journey over the years to my seller in Berlin/Germany? Perhaps it is a distribution for US occupying forces in Germany in the 60th or 70th.
The condition of the comic is very very fine, apart from the missig staples and the cut at the top ...
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 14, 2009 7:24:30 GMT -5
This is a very realistic hypothesis. Last year I translated the biography of a famous Italian comic author, mostly for Disney, and when asked how he initially came in contact with these foreign characters, he replied explaining that comics were quite rare, but would occasionally be found discarded or left behind by the soldiers, or given away as a present to the children.
He is mostly referring to the Forties and Fifties, but it could probably be applied to the Sixties too. However, he remembers those comics to be just like the American ones. Then again, when I buy an Italian newspaper here in England, the stapling, paper etc is a bit different from what it is in Italy, to make it easier to ship them by plain. Perhaps at the time they did the same with a rack of comics?
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Post by sharkar on Feb 15, 2009 21:17:42 GMT -5
And how can an uncommon comic like that find such a long journey over the years to my seller in Berlin/Germany? Perhaps it is a distribution for US occupying forces in Germany in the 60th or 70th. ...but it could probably be applied to the Sixties too. Now that I've seen an actual image of the comic posted by michidiers (showing the holes were tiny and not at all compatible with a looseleaf notebook), I think you are both correct--this may be a copy that was produced specifically for military personnel. I seem to recall I've read somewhere that because soldiers would fold and stuff comics into their pockets, Marvel (and DC?) produced special editions for the American armed forces: comics in a slightly reduced size to make it easier. That would account for the "short cut" label--the story wasn't shorter (as I'd guess earlier)- -but the actual cover and page size of the comic was cut shorter--so the comic was more compact in size. I'm not sure if this smaller size was an innovation for the 1960s (because Marvel had a lot of fans in the military) or a carryover from comics' popularity during previous wars years, but it looks like you have a pretty good copy there, michidiers! And I love your avatar--one of my all-time favorite covers, originally on Avengers #49.
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Post by Tana Nile on Feb 16, 2009 9:41:09 GMT -5
Sounds like you guys may have solved the mystery. As for the apparent staple holes, I once traded comics with a guy who had stapled issues together! He would staple two or three issues together in sequence. I never knew why. But I still run across those issues from time to time (now separated of course) when looking through my collection.
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Post by michidiers on Feb 16, 2009 12:55:43 GMT -5
Thank you for the responses. Here in Germany it is difficult to find out such special informations about older US-Avenger issues. And I think, we are pretty right with our theorie of the „army distribution issues“ for occupation soldiers. And our conclusion, that the comics must had in former times special measures for the pockets or bags of the troops is obvious. Ah, before i forget: The 6 holes of former staples. I think, in view of our theorie above, it can surely be, that the Avenger Comic were be pinned at a newspaper or anything as a bundle for every soldier. Can be, can be, can be. A lot of hypotheses under the deep mist of history. But better than nothing, now I can write a lot for my german comic comiunity. Or is here anyone, who knows more? @shakar: My avatar is the cover of the german issue. Here a little bit bigger picture: It is my favorite cover too and was one of my first Avenger comics I bought as a 10 year old child in the 70th. And this issue hooked my special interest for my mighty avengers. Thoose years in the 70th we have had a very famos time of marvelcomics here in germany. Yes, it is a long long time ago…
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Post by sharkar on Feb 16, 2009 20:11:08 GMT -5
@shakar: My avatar is the cover of the german issue. Here a little bit bigger picture: Yes, I had realized your avatar was of the German edition--the "Rächer" title kind of gave it away . But thanks for the enlargement, michidiers; it's always great to see Buscema's art! It is my favorite cover too and was one of my first Avenger comics I bought as a 10 year old child in the 70th. And this issue hooked my special interest for my mighty avengers. Thoose years in the 70th we have had a very famos time of marvelcomics here in germany. Yes, it is a long long time ago… Oh, I can top that! ;D Your Rächer #48 would have been published in 1976. The issue it reprinted, Avengers #49, was one of my first Avengers issues, waaaayyy back in 1967 (cover dated 1968)...so a really long long long time ago. Like you, this issue was one of the reasons I became hooked on the Avengers. Anyway, michidiers, you may already know about this German 1970s Marvel Comics site, but if not, here are a couple of links: www.wmca.despecific page for Die Ruhmreichen Rächer #48 www.wmca.de/rezensionen/raecher/rezension_raecher_048.htmIt is run by someone who used to post here frequently; he called himself "Yellowjacket" (and YJ, if you're reading this--you are missed!).
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Post by scottharris on Feb 16, 2009 20:29:08 GMT -5
I was curious why the German edition for this issue is #48 instead of #49, so I went back through the rest of the cover archive and discovered that the German reprints skipped Avengers #6. Anyone know the reason for this? The only thing I can think is that it had the first appearance (sort of) of Baron Zemo and there might have been something in it that was inappropriate for German audiences due to Zemo's Nazi background. However, the other Zemo issues, like #7, #9 and #15, were reprinted, so I'm not sure.
Actually, there's an explanation on the site, I just can't read it since it's in German. I see a mention of Hate Monger, though, from FF #21 -- who was actually Hitler -- so I suspect my theory is correct. I'll try babelfish and see what it says.
Edit: okay, I think the babelfish translation is actually harder to read than the original German. But the gist is there -- apparently the company doing the reprints had skipped FF #21 and had been whiting out swastikas and such in an attempt to make the stuff more palatable for German audiences, so they probably did the same with Avengers #6. I haven't read the story in a long time, so I don't recall just what is in it that might have prevented it from being reprinted, but I can understand why they might have skipped it.
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Post by sharkar on Feb 16, 2009 21:16:01 GMT -5
I was curious why the German edition for this issue is #48 instead of #49, so I went back through the rest of the cover archive and discovered that the German reprints skipped Avengers #6. Anyone know the reason for this? The only thing I can think is that it had the first appearance (sort of) of Baron Zemo and there might have been something in it that was inappropriate for German audiences due to Zemo's Nazi background. However, the other Zemo issues, like #7, #9 and #15, were reprinted, so I'm not sure. Actually, there's an explanation on the site, I just can't read it since it's in German. I see a mention of Hate Monger, though, from FF #21 -- who was actually Hitler -- so I suspect my theory is correct. I'll try babelfish and see what it says. Edit: okay, I think the babelfish translation is actually harder to read than the original German. But the gist is there -- apparently the company doing the reprints had skipped FF #21 and had been whiting out swastikas and such in an attempt to make the stuff more palatable for German audiences, so they probably did the same with Avengers #6. I haven't read the story in a long time, so I don't recall just what is in it that might have prevented it from being reprinted, but I can understand why they might have skipped it. Ah, I was wondering if anyone would question why Avengers # 49 was reprinted in Rächer # 48! ;D I recall a while ago someone here had posted the cover of the German edition of Rächer # 100, which contained the "Five Dooms to Save Tomorrow" story that appeared in Avengers # 101 and the cover from #101. So when I posted earlier, I had also checked Yellowjacket's wmca site, and I saw that #6 was not included in the Rächer issues... accounting for the numbering discrepancy. I figured its exclusion was due to something along the lines of what Scott posted (thanks for researching it, Scott). Also, in the wmca blurb on this issue there's text mentioning "Marvel Deutschlands Klassik Band #5", which appears to be a version of the Masterworks...it seems Avengers #6 is included here.
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Post by michidiers on Feb 17, 2009 10:30:52 GMT -5
The following us-issues were by the german publisher „Williams Verlag“ in the 70th skipped: FF 5, 6, 10, 12, 21 and 44 Amazing Spider Man 29 Avengers 6 The general gist was normally a lost or a missing master pattern for the print in the us-marvel archive. According an interview with a former german publisher, in that time must had been a big chaos in the us-archive. But actually the Avenger 6 an FV 21 were skipped because they had got a lot of panels with hints of the „3rd Reich“. This is a typical german problem and that gots always stuff for a lot of discussions in the german public and medias. Even a typical german discussion... And this ist the reason why these comics were not released in Germany. The publishing house was simply scared of a damaged reputation. Or worser: a cesorship for the issues or seizure of the whole edition by the gouvernment. @shakar: I ´m familiar with yellowjacket and his famus webside www.wmca.de from our old school german marvel community. Yellowjacket proposed me to register in the Avenger Assemble Forum to ask here for the „short cut edition“ , because no one in Germany were able to tell something about that issue. Ah, yes: here ist a picture of Marvel Klassik Nr.5 Avengers from 1990, its nearly the US Masterworks. It has got the original uncutted US-Avenger No. 1 – 10 inclusive the whole no. 6 , and complete in german language.
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Post by Yellowjacket on Feb 19, 2009 12:33:11 GMT -5
It is run by someone who used to post here frequently; he called himself "Yellowjacket" (and YJ, if you're reading this--you are missed!). Thank you, sharkar, that is very kind of you. It even gives me a little bit of a bad conscience. I should do something about that... Some annotation for the mentioned missing German issues, namley Avengers #6 and FF #21. I have to add, this is my interpretation, my opinion of this topic. These stories were not skipped because of the readers. These stories were skipped because of the overall German sense of guilt and German law. Of course, the first one isn´t that wrong at all but - I think - we clearly overshoot the mark. There is not one Marvel story where the Nazis are not the BAD guys, but that´s completly irrelevant in Germany. German law says NO swatiska are allowed in comics, so the swatiskas are removed. There is simply no distinction made. Another example: Some freaks in USA did reconstruct 3 Messerschmid ME121 without any original documents. An amazing task! Of course they did put swatiskas on them. Why? Because they tried to make it like the original one - as much as possible. One of the planes did fly on the Berlin airshow about two years ago. To get the permission to participate on the airshow they had to remove the swatiskas. I say that´s (nearly) insane.
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Post by sharkar on Feb 20, 2009 9:23:12 GMT -5
Great to hear from you, YJ! Hope all is well. The information you and michidiers have provided regarding the omission of certain stories--and also how this manifests itself outside of comics--is fascinating. Thank you. Now I have a question that is far more trivial: I was wondering why the Vison appears with his colors reversed in the cover corner box,which shows him in a predominantly yellow costume with green accents including a green cape (instead of his standard green costume with yellow accents and a yellow cape). I had first noticed it a while ago when Die Rächer #100 was displayed here on the boards, and it's also the case on the cover posted by michidiers. In the interior stories themselves, is Vision's costume colored mostly yellow, too...or is it just in the corner box?
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Post by Tana Nile on Feb 20, 2009 10:54:26 GMT -5
Yellowjacket?! Wow! Hope to see you around the boards some more old chum!
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Post by Yellowjacket on Feb 22, 2009 9:29:08 GMT -5
No, inside the colors are (nearly always) like the ones in the US books. "Nearly always" is mainly due to the fact that they did color the German issues by themselves. Likewise the US books of about the first ten years, the colorists were never mentioned. But the German Williams publisher and its editorial staff tried to be as faithfull as possible in every aspect to the US books, so Vision is colored correctly inside the books and in most times on the covers too. Of course, the colorists/editors did make mistakes but due to their own coloring they will never be the same like in the US books. For example we never had a grey Hulk. Of course, Williams did in 1974 know about the color switch, so they made him lovely green right from the beginning. Concerning the corner box of "Rächer": The first wave of Marvel superheroes comics were published between 1966 and december 1973 by a publisher named BSV. BSV did publish 31 Avengers stories, US numbers 27-28/34-52/56-57/59-60/66-67/70-71/89-90; really not much of a chronology there! Then BSV became Williams and began from january 1974 on to publish its version (one could say Vision) of the Marvel stories and they did start again and chronological from the first issues on--in short: the German Silver Age of Marvel Comics. So, why is Vision colored wrongly in the corner box? I think this was simply one of the mistakes made by Williams, that´s really all there is. It is a bit odd that they never did adjust this, but unlike on the US books (all of) the German corner boxes were never changed. They stayed all the years the same. But it´s already odd enough that they did choose a corner box character for the "Rächer", which would not appear for about 3 years in the books! There seems to have been one hell of a Vision fan on the editiorial staff! Another interesting color example are the cover versions of Avengers #57 and Rächer #56. I think both covers are great and I ´m sure the US cover was intentionally done in red. But the German bullpen did evidently think the green/yellow look of the Vision would fit better: PS: The covers of today are such pathetic...
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Post by sharkar on Feb 22, 2009 18:36:11 GMT -5
Very illuminating...once again, thanks for providing the information and filling in the details, yellowjacket. And thanks for posting a comparison of the covers- -stunning. But it´s already odd enough that they did choose a corner box character for the "Rächer", which would not appear for about 3 years in the books! There seems to have been one hell of a Vision fan on the editiorial staff! Yeah, when I saw the cover michidiers posted (#48, reprint of Av. #49), I wondered about that myself! ;D But I guess the Vision was alreday well-known enough in '76 (when Die Rächer started), so from a marketing standpoint I can see why they would use him the corner box (perhaps Cap, IM, and Thor were already occupying the corner boxes of their own reprint collections...)
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 23, 2009 13:07:07 GMT -5
No, inside the colors are (nearly always) like the ones in the US books. "Nearly always" is mainly due to the fact that they did color the German issues by themselves. Likewise the US books of about the first ten years, the colorists were never mentioned. I am enjoying this thread -- it's like a veil has been removed! Does anyone know if the text is translated accurately from English to German, or are there some liberties taken -- I don't mean that in a bad way, but we all know from different translators come different versions of a given story (the Bible would be example A, of course).
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Post by Tana Nile on Feb 23, 2009 16:11:39 GMT -5
YJ, thanks for posting those covers, it's bizarre to see that alternate coloring job!
Similar to DLW's question, I'm wondering if the names of any of our favorite Avengers have been changed significantly in translation?
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Post by Yellowjacket on Feb 25, 2009 7:46:20 GMT -5
Does anyone know if the text is translated accurately from English to German, or are there some liberties taken -- I don't mean that in a bad way, but we all know from different translators come different versions of a given story (the Bible would be example A, of course). First of all one has to consider that many languages need more "space" than English. For example German needs about 30% more space (means more words for the same phrase) than English. Another example would be Spanish, as far as I know it is even "worse" with Spanish. So any (German) translater has most of the times to consider this point. The Williams bullpen did stay as faithfully as possible to the English texts, so their translations are mirroring the English texts in point of phrasing AND in point of the sheer amount of wording. You might call this a word by word translation. But then they had, of course, the space issue. Sometimes the remedy for this problem was to make bigger balloons, so some of our balloons are bigger than the US ones. They did this especially during the first years of their publishing. Personally I never had a problem with this solution. If you look hard enough when reading old US books you may notice every now and then (in these US books), that they did make bigger balloons/boxes BELATED to place all words. At least this is the impression I sometimes get. Todays translations (I can judge this only for the German Panini branch) are mainly analogous, long gone are the days of the truly faithful translations. At Panini they have even a rule not to use more words than in the US original. Think of this, when knowing German needs 30% more words/space! Even worse, another rule demands to use ALWAYS same font size (per book), don´t change it within one story. Gladly, not every translater keeps with that rule... Overall With modern stories this mustn´t be a bad thing, this is something depending on the quality of the translater (no suprise). But I tell you, with classic stories these rules are deadly. And there is especially one guy with Panini Germany who translates many, many of the classic stories--and does so in a very modern fashion. The result is bad, really bad. Think of Roy Thomas´ powerfully eloquent (Savage Sword of) Conan, reduced to a translation complying to these rules. Though this translater does try to stay with Thomas´ style, he´ll always loose, simply because he´s not using enough words. By doing this, he´s loosing "everything".
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 25, 2009 8:40:17 GMT -5
Amazing! YJ, this is fantastic information! Thanks so much for the detail in your post.
As I suspected, then, while the artist's work remains intact (coloring aside), it is the writer who may get buried beneath the demands on the translator. Of course we all know that some words or phrases simply don't move between languages, so meanings of certain dialogue are going to come out differently.
Wonderful information!
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Post by michidiers on Feb 25, 2009 12:17:46 GMT -5
It would be conducely to show here a picture of two of the same pages from an old Avenger issue. One in german language and one in english language to compare the differences of the translation and the differences of the colours. But I´m scared to hurt the copyrights , when I add here a photo of a page of an Avenger Comic.
Ah, by the way: You remaked a lot of prices in the corner box of the German Number 56, posted by yellowjacket? These are the currencys of other neighbour-countrys with german spoken language:
- sfr = Schweitzer Franken, Switzerland - öS = Österreichische Schilling, Austria - L = Luxemburgische Franken, Luxemburg - Hfl = Niederländische (Holländische) Gulden, Netherlands
German is in Austria the official spoken language, and in parts of switzerland too. And a lot of people in netherland and luxemburg are able to speak and understand the german language.So a lot of these comics were selled in these countrys too, primary in austria.
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