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Post by spiderwasp on Feb 9, 2009 20:59:55 GMT -5
I know this has been mentioned a bit before in other threads but I for one am tired of Marvel (Though I imagine other publishers do it too) forcing us to pay for reprints we don't want in order to get new material. Recent examples: *The Mighty Avengers issue in which Hank Pym becomes the Wasp. I didn't even pick this up despite being a big fan of both Hank and Jan because I couldn't see paying 4 bucks for 8 new pages of story and 2 reprints of stories I already have in one form or another. *Cosmic Sized Fantastic Four - For the record, I enjoyed the main story, but again, 5 bucks for a 32 page story and a reprint of FF 237, which I already have. I know people argue that publishing costs are high and try to explain Marvel's price gouging that way but they could have just put this in a regular sized book and charged $3 if they weren't doing a number on me. * Darkhawk LS 1 - I hadn't heard any buzz about this and when I saw it at my LCS, I thought "Hey, I bought all the Darkhawk's back when. This might be interesting," so I bought it. Only then did I discover that the $4 cover price was for a 22 page story and a reprint of the original darkhawk 1 series which, you guessed it, I already have. For the record, the story isn't incredible but it isn't bad. It's almost like Marvel is trying to make their books unaffordable. It's also further evidence that Joe Q and company don't care a thing about us older readers. If publishing costs are indeed forcing them to charge more, the least they could do is fill the books with new material. In the good ole days (Yes, I know that makes me sound old but I don't care) they published books like Marvel Tales, Marvel's Greatest, and Marvel Triple Action to allow readers to be able to read older stories they missed. I know sometimes they slipped reprints in, but not this often and not with such inflated prices. Yes, there were times in the past when they did things I thought were sleazy like reprinting an issue of Amazing Adventures with the Beast as though it were a new issue of Avengers in #136 or increasing the size and filling it with reprints in those 100 page monsters, but this is just getting out of hand. It makes me mad!  And no I don't like it when recording artists do the same thing by releasing a greatest hits album and throwing on one or two new songs to get fans to buy it who have already bought everything they've ever put out. It just doesn't show any loyalty or appreciation for fans. |
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Post by woodside on Feb 9, 2009 22:29:25 GMT -5
Ugh, enough with talking about comic prices. Yes, they're going up. It's just something we have to deal with. The world sucks, the economy sucks.
Second, the idea to include reprint material is for newer readers who don't have access to older issues. I like it. I don't have back issues of Avengers, so I like to have an extra story in there. I don't understand what the problem is? I'd gladly pay an extra for reprint material -- as long as the new story is in there, too.
And if we must, from NYCC's Marvel panel:
(http://www.newsarama.com/comics/090207-nycc09-cup-o-joe.html)
A fan griped about price recent price increases of some books going to $3.99. "We've been struggling with pricing," said Buckley. "Things have been costing more across the board for the last year for us, also. There are only four titles that got moved, unlike what the Internet is trying to say. We have to look at the stories we put into. Usually people do the up-pricing of books that don't sell well. That drags up pricing more quickly, and leads to death of those titles much more quickly. It's really a balancing of economics, of value, of what you guys demand and want. It's not a straight-up formula, and I'm not going to pretend that it is. We're not going to pretend that it is."
AND
A fan asked about Astonishing X-Men: Ghost Boxes being 16 pages of story for $3.99. Buckley said it was a mistake and it won't happen again.
Ugh, sometimes this forum is just too much for me. I'm going on an AA! vacation.
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Post by spiderwasp on Feb 9, 2009 23:10:51 GMT -5
Ugh, enough with talking about comic prices. Yes, they're going up. It's just something we have to deal with. The world sucks, the economy sucks. Second, the idea to include reprint material is for newer readers who don't have access to older issues. I like it. I don't have back issues of Avengers, so I like to have an extra story in there. I don't understand what the problem is? I'd gladly pay an extra for reprint material -- as long as the new story is in there, too. And if we must, from NYCC's Marvel panel: (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/090207-nycc09-cup-o-joe.html) A fan griped about price recent price increases of some books going to $3.99. "We've been struggling with pricing," said Buckley. "Things have been costing more across the board for the last year for us, also. There are only four titles that got moved, unlike what the Internet is trying to say. We have to look at the stories we put into. Usually people do the up-pricing of books that don't sell well. That drags up pricing more quickly, and leads to death of those titles much more quickly. It's really a balancing of economics, of value, of what you guys demand and want. It's not a straight-up formula, and I'm not going to pretend that it is. We're not going to pretend that it is." AND A fan asked about Astonishing X-Men: Ghost Boxes being 16 pages of story for $3.99. Buckley said it was a mistake and it won't happen again. Ugh, sometimes this forum is just too much for me. I'm going on an AA! vacation. Gee, what a shame. How while we know what we are allowed to gripe about? Thank you however for quoting what Marvel says about the price increase. If they say it is unavoidable, it must be. After all, what possible reason could they have for hiking up the prices unless they had no alternative? And if Buckley says there won't be 16 pages of story for $3.99 then obviously I don't feel bad about paying $4.99 for 32 pages in FF or $3.99 for 22 pages in Darkhawk. It must all be okay then. Also, after much careful research and hours of dwelling on the matter, I had managed to figure out that reprints were aimed at newer readers. Think how much time I could have saved if you had cleared up that complicated matter for me sooner. However, I still stand by the notion that if publication prices are unavoidabley skyrocketing (Which they must be or there would be no reason for them to say it) that not padding the books would reduce the cost. However, I have also concluded that printing the reprints separately so that newer readers can and will buy them won't make Marvel as much money as forcing them on readers who already have the original books but still want the new material. Thus my point about Marvel not respecting the older readers. Come to think of it, that was more the point of my post than the rising cost of the actual regular books. Before your vacation begins can you please give us a list of approved topics? We already know that we shouldn't analyze everything Bendis says or gripe about the rising costs. If would be helpful if you let us know what other topics you have deemed inappropriate ahead of time before we make any more social blunders. |
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Feb 10, 2009 3:04:58 GMT -5
Ugh, sometimes this forum is just too much for me. I'm going on an AA! vacation. No offense woodside, but if you take what people say at a forum to heart so much that you actually get frustrated enough to have to take a vacation (and think that it's "too much",) maybe message boards aren't right for you.  Despite what you think, people have opinions, and while I haven't read enough books by Brian Bendis, or read enough current Marvel books to form my own opinion, it's pretty obvious to me that a lot of people on this forum (And on other forums,) REALLY don't like Bendis at all. What irks me is how bent out of shape you get whenever anyone says something negative about him, or about Marvel comics in general. Why do you get so bent out of shape about it? It seems to me that Dr. Doom likes current comic books, and follows current books, and he never starts complaining or giving off an attitude when he posts a response to someone, so why do you do it? I'm not insulting you, in fact I think you're one smart guy, I'm just curious. Moderators, if this post is in violation of the rules, or if it offends someone, feel free to delete it. But honestly, while we're at it, I want what I said to go out to other people who have ever gotten so bent out of shape over Bendis. Whether you're on his side or not, can we please discuss it in a civil manner, with no arrogant "Well I know I'm right" attitude, by both sides? This forum is a great forum, and I'd rather not see it degenerate into a big bickering fight over a writer of comic books, or into a place where people feel they have to take vacations to get a break from it. Let's stick to what we're best at discussing: The Avengers! |
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Post by freedomfighter on Feb 10, 2009 11:52:01 GMT -5
Ugh, enough with talking about comic prices. Yes, they're going up. It's just something we have to deal with. The world sucks, the economy sucks. Second, the idea to include reprint material is for newer readers who don't have access to older issues. I like it. I don't have back issues of Avengers, so I like to have an extra story in there. I don't understand what the problem is? I'd gladly pay an extra for reprint material -- as long as the new story is in there, too. And if we must, from NYCC's Marvel panel: (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/090207-nycc09-cup-o-joe.html) A fan griped about price recent price increases of some books going to $3.99. "We've been struggling with pricing," said Buckley. "Things have been costing more across the board for the last year for us, also. There are only four titles that got moved, unlike what the Internet is trying to say. We have to look at the stories we put into. Usually people do the up-pricing of books that don't sell well. That drags up pricing more quickly, and leads to death of those titles much more quickly. It's really a balancing of economics, of value, of what you guys demand and want. It's not a straight-up formula, and I'm not going to pretend that it is. We're not going to pretend that it is." AND A fan asked about Astonishing X-Men: Ghost Boxes being 16 pages of story for $3.99. Buckley said it was a mistake and it won't happen again. Ugh, sometimes this forum is just too much for me. I'm going on an AA! vacation. Well sorry you feel that way. Here's the problem tho, the rise of inflation doesn't support the raise in comic prices. I think I posted this before but it's worth another look www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18583Those who can't use the link, here's the text in italics...
So. If Marvel comics are heading towards a standard $3.99 price point... and if so, DC Comics will trot along a month or two afterwards... is this really too expensive for a modern comic? Is $2.99 too expensive?
It's a common complaint for people to talk about how much cheaper comics were when they were younger, and just as common is the recognition that everything used to be cheaper, that's what inflation is about, our income rises with it, it's all about how prices have changed in real terms.
So let's find out!
In 1977 Amazing Spider-Man cost 30 cents. Let's see what happens when we apply the US rate of inflation of the previous year to the price compared to what the comics actually cost.
Year Cover Price Rate of Inflation
1977 0.30 0.30
1978 0.35 0.32
1979 0.40 0.34
1980 0.40 0.38
1981 0.50 0.43
1982 0.60 0.48
1983 0.60 0.51
1984 0.60 0.53
1985 0.60 0.55
1986 0.65 0.57
1987 0.75 0.58
1988 0.75 0.6
1989 1 0.62
1990 1 0.65
1991 1 0.69
1992 1 0.72
1993 1.25 0.74
1994 1.5 0.76
1995 1.5 0.78
1996 1.5 0.80
1997 1.5 0.83
1998 1.5 0.85
1999 1.75 0.86
2000 1.99 0.88
2001 2.25 0.91
2002 2.25 0.93
2003 2.25 0.95
2004 2.25 0.97
2005 2.25 1
2006 2.5 1.03
2007 2.99 1.06
2008 2.99 1.09
2009 3.99?
Wow. Now of course, there's a higher page count, the print quality is better, the colouring technology is out of this world, but still. In real terms, at least as defined by US inflation, your comic should be just over a buck. And yet it may well be about to hit $4.
And double the 2000 price.
Ouch.
here's a follow piece as well www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18672and the text:
Last week's number crunching of American economy inflation and comic book inflation, the latter outstripping the former 3 to 1 (and very soon 4 to 1) caused lots of comments on the blogosphere.
One common complaint was that the costs of creating comics had gone up ahead of inflation, in terms of salaries, land, paper costs, selling fewer copies per title and more. True. Yet in the same period the Washington Times has risen from 20c to 50c, an under-inflation rise, and this is at a time when newspapers are really suffering. And "Civil War" and "Secret Invasion" sold from 300-400,000, with trade paperback income on top, something you never had in the seventies. yet still cost $3.99 an issue. And technology has brought down all sorts of costs as well.
Of course there are reasons why comics aren't pegged to general inflation. But why should the customer care? And if the books hit $3.99 across the board, are you finally going to see more of them leave?
One title that certainly caused quite a stink pricewise this week was "Astonishing X-Men: Ghost Boxes" which provided a massive 16 pages of story, with a few additional pages of script, for the grand sum of $3.99. Cue revolt up and down the USA. Or, at least, some pull list titles put back on the shelf.
Not Britain, it managed a week delay there. Expect our rivers of blood on Thursday.
here's another article www.mises.org/story/2611and the text from it as well.
The Amazing Spider-Man Battles the Inflation Monster
Daily Article by John Paul Koning | Posted on 6/11/2007 12:00:00 AM
In March 1963, comic book fans fell in love with the first issue of Amazing Spider-Man, an account of Spidey battling the Fantastic Four. The price at the newsstand? Twelve cents. In March 2007, more than fifty years later, issue #540 of Amazing Spider-Man hit comic book stores. This time around fans had to shell out $2.99, a whopping 2,400% jump in price.
Remembering the past price of things is important because we base many of our purchases on our knowledge of what a "good" or "normal price" is. Take buying milk at the local grocery store, or the cost of taxi fare to the airport, or monthly purchases of Amazing Spider-Man. We can remember the recent price for these things quite well, and these memories protect us from paying too much for something. But as time passes we lose touch with the old prices, most of which have been rising for so long now that any memory of what they once were is hazy, non-existent, if not irrelevant.
Which is why I was quite excited to stumble upon the historical retail price for Amazing Spider-Man from the title's debut in 1963 all the way to the present. Here is a fixed-in-time record of one consumer good which has stayed relatively constant in quality and nature over a long period of time. We may have forgotten what happened to the price of milk, but here at least, is the exact price of our Spider-Man fix.
Cover prices of Amazing Spider-Man remained fairly constant in its first five years of existence. But in 1969 prices began a slow and steady upwards move that continues to this day. The temporary large spikes that show up in the chart in the early 1990s marked a boom period in the comic industry, not unlike the Internet stock mania of the late 1990s or today's housing boom. Collectors and speculators had begun to flood the market, and to meet their demand for unique investments with appreciation potential, comic book publishers started printing expensive special-edition comics with holographic covers, chromium covers, collector cards, etc. Print runs increased dramatically, overall supply expanded. This boom had effectively ended by the late '90s and Spider-Man has since gone back to standard pricing and sizes.
Also important to understanding the rise in Spider-Man's price is the number of pages per issue.
One way publishers can increase prices is to keep the retail price of their product constant while reducing the number of pages. Note how in the early 1970s, pages per comic stealthily dropped from 23 to 17, and stayed there for the next ten years. These gradual page reductions were probably less apparent to readers than more overt increases in the sticker price. The same thing happens when potato chip manufacturers decrease the number of chips in their bags while keeping the price the same.
We can create a simple quality-adjusted price for Amazing Spider-Man by calculating its price per page. Note that comparing the past price of a good to its present price is terribly difficult, if not impossible. A multitude of changes in technology and quality have occurred between the Spider-Man of 1963 and 2007, many of these changes (especially artistic innovations) unquantifiable. Our measure, for instance, doesn't take into account changes in paper quality, thickness, and brightness, nor improvements in the techniques for drawing Spider-Man, nor technological advances in color printing.
Nevertheless, the general shape of the graph — a rising per-page price over time — is a valid one.
Whose Fault Is It?
Basic economics tells us that if the demand for Amazing Spider-Man increases at an existing supply, more will be offered for it and the price will rise. Profits at Marvel, Spider-Man's publisher, would grow, and managers at Marvel would therefore increase the supply of comics, or competitors would enter the market with similar products. This increase in supply would reduce prices and profits. Conversely, a drop in demand should result in a decline in price, profits, and supply.
Below is a chart showing circulation statistics for Amazing Spider-Man over the years.
Not exactly stellar. Except for the boom years in the early 1990s, the title's popularity has actually waned. That this hasn't caused a drop in prices seems to defy economic logic. Even the dramatic plummet in demand for Spider-Man from 1994 to present day has been accompanied by more than a doubling in monthly prices from $1.25 to $2.99. What gives?
To answer this conundrum, let's look beyond the price of Spider-Man to the price of all goods. The chart below compares the price of Spider-Man to that of Time magazine, another paper product, as well as the Consumer Price Index.
Not only the price of Spider-Man, but also Time, and indeed all consumer goods have been consistently increasing since 1963. (Note that the measurement of CPI should be viewed with a critical eye. Here and here are several articles on Mises.org that deal with the problem of measuring broad consumer prices). Problematic though the CPI may be, the general conclusion that prices have been rising is inescapable, one that most people's personal experience confirms.
This general rise would seem to imply that over time, demand for goods has been running ahead of supply, pushing prices up. This too goes against economic logic. If prices rise, entrepreneurs react to this signal by increasing their firms' capacity to produce. Supply will naturally increase in a compensating manner thereby exerting downward pressure on prices. Another way to look at it is this: with a growing demand for all goods and the corresponding increase in their prices, consumers would now have to spend more of their money on Amazing Spider-Man, leaving less for, say, Time magazine. Demand for Time would fall, leading to a decline in prices. Yet all prices have been rising.
In order to understand why the price of Spider-Man, Time, and all other goods have been rising, we must consider the opposite side of the equation, the supply and demand for money. When a comic book fan buys an issue of Amazing Spider-Man, they are exchanging the paper on which Spider-Man is printed for paper on which money is printed. Though we often assume that money is simply an invariable unit of measure, it too is subject to the same forces that a comic is.
If the demand for dollars rises — say people want to hold more money in their wallets — the value of a dollar will rise as well. This rise means that a dollar will be able to acquire more goods than before, and that all things staying the same the prices for goods will fall. Conversely, if the supply of dollars increases — say the government has issued new currency — the value of the dollar will decline. More dollars will be spent, pushing goods prices up so that a dollar will be able to buy fewer goods than before.
The chart below shows the yearly printing of new issues of Spider-Man versus that of dollar bills.
This shows that the rate at which new dollars are being printed each year has been increasing far faster than the rate at which Amazing Spider-Man issues are being printed. More new money is chasing fewer comic books, so the price of comics has been increasing. Indeed, we see the same effect for Time magazine and almost every consumer good out there. More money is chasing goods, leading to a decline in the value of dollars, or, alternatively, a rise in all prices.
Though some comic fans will be quick to put the blame at the foot of Marvel for price increases, they would be more correct to blame the Federal Reserve, the "publisher" responsible for the creation of our supply of dollars. Though society has come to accept the general rise in prices as a normal part of our lives, before the founding of the Federal Reserve and the removal of the US dollar from the gold standard, prices held relatively steady.
Why have comic book prices been increasing faster than both Time magazine prices and the CPI? According to the Austrian theory of the business cycle, expansion of the money supply does not affect all prices equally. The process starts with central banks like the Federal Reserve creating new money and lending it to commercial banks at rates below what bankers would otherwise lend to each other. These banks then loan this newly created money to their clients. There are many things clients can do with credit. If they all choose to buy real estate, then housing prices will rise.
With Study Guide: $32
"The Federal Reserve …the 'publisher' responsible for the creation of our supply of dollars."
The former real estate owners, now flush with cash, may all choose to spend it on Amazing Spider-Man comics. Spider-Man prices rise. Profits accrue to Marvel managers and shareholders who use their new stores of cash to buy issues of Time magazine. Only now does the price of Time rise. It is in this wavelike manner that newly created credit influences the general price level. Prices rise at different times and rates, and only after some time will the full force of an increase in the money supply be realized.
Spider-Man comics may be rising faster than other goods because they have been nearer to the source of this new credit. One reason for this may be the collectible nature of comics. In the 1980s, the idea of buying comics for price appreciation and investment rather than enjoyment began to take hold. This led to the great speculative mania of the early '90s, followed by the inevitable bust. Even Marvel couldn't survive — it went bankrupt in 1997. But the idea that comics can be bought both for enjoyment and investment means they attract more speculative capital than Time and other simple consumer goods.
For all those disgruntled comic buyers: Keep buying comics. As long as the supply of dollars is controlled by governments, the amount of money in the economy will continue to explode and the value of a dollar in your bank account will erode. Comic books, on the other hand, will keep their value, and may even provide some reading enjoyment.
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John Paul Koning writes for Pollitt & Co, a brokerage based in Toronto, Canada. Send him mail. Comment on the blog.
the consensus does seem to be that comics shouldn't cost as much as they do. If you want to get upset because people have realized this, I don't know what to tell you... |
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Post by starfoxxx on Feb 10, 2009 17:09:13 GMT -5
Personally, I don't buy comics with reprint material unless I'm digging thru a 50-cent or dollar bin. But there should be a market for it........ remember Marvel Triple Action?  But using reprint material to "beef up" a few pages of new material is lame. And the rising prices..... hey, even gas went up in increments, to just go from 2.99 to 3.99 seems too convenient, and is a real slap in the face to true Marvel fans. Again, I would have no problem if the quality was more consistent. I would prefer that Marvel would tighten the reins, cut back on all the superflous titles, and trim the fat of the "new talent" instead of giving these no-name creators/artists their own titles. I mean, do we really need another SKRULL KILL KREW comic??? |
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 12, 2009 18:32:12 GMT -5
I guess this is as good a place as any to post this article from yesterday's (2/11/09) Chicago Tribune. It's about a comic shop in Chicago's Hyde Park neighborhood, former address of Barack Obama. It speaks to the current state of economics in regard to shop owners. www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-comics_city_zone_11feb11,0,3526628.story |
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 13, 2009 17:56:36 GMT -5
The reprints issue is an old one, annuals have always had a bunch of them together with a new story to attract the readers.
I concur it's boring for us who already have or have read the reprinted material, but it could be a way to let new readers know the Silver Age (so they can buy Masterworks, Essentials etc ;D).
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