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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Oct 25, 2008 10:55:09 GMT -5
I hope Shiryu doesn't think I'm going on his turf for doing this, but I thought it'd be fun to see what everyone thought of other big Avenger issues! So, let's see what everyone thinks of what is possibly one of the more legendary issues of the series. I will add my own comments after I've heard some of yours.  |
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 28, 2008 12:59:55 GMT -5
It's been awhile since I've read the story. I recall it as being actually 2 stories -- the finish of the Cap/Zemo saga, and then the new line-up (which some will argue is actually the third line-up change after the Hulk's departure and Cap's admission). My most dominant memory of the latter half of the issue is as a reprint in the pages of Avengers #150. This was supposed to be a "new line-up" story, but the "dreaded deadline doom" struck and Marvel had to shove the reprint into that issue.
I would like to say something in regard to critics who have criticized those of us who complained about Bendis' line-up change with New Avengers #1. I think the biggest difference in this story and NA is the fact that Stan took relative unknowns and put them on the team. Bendis took folks who had had strong solo careers or were associated with other characters for many years. Whereas Stan had somewhat of a clean slate, Bendis shoehorned his own wishes upon the rest of unsuspecting Avengerdom. Stan's tales then became exploratry and developing; Bendis' became forced and explanatory.
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Post by scottharris on Oct 30, 2008 8:37:59 GMT -5
I like this issue, it's fun and revolutionary and really jumpstarted the franchise. In my opinion, #4, 16 and 57 are the three key issues in Avengers history as they were all game changers for the series.
In regards to the reprint in #150, was this entirely a deadline issue? I was just reading FOOM #12, which has an interview with Englehart, and he talks about his plans for Avengers #150 as well as for issuesa after that. He mentions that Wonder Man is being brought back in #150, and that this story was due to a directive by Marv Wolfman, who was EIC at the time. However, Wolfman stepped down and was replaced by Gerry Conway at this time.
Now, the story I've heard in the past is that Conway felt that the EIC should also be writing one of the top books, so he dismissed Englehart and put himself in as Avengers writer. Thus #150 has Englehart only writing the first few pages before the reprint abruptly kicks in; then Conway shows up to start writing in #151 and provides the promised Wonder Man storyline.
In other words, the deadline problem was caused by Conway firing Englehart as part of a power play. At least, that's my understanding of it. Comments?
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Post by Tana Nile on Oct 30, 2008 10:08:05 GMT -5
I like this issue, it's fun and revolutionary and really jumpstarted the franchise. In my opinion, #4, 16 and 57 are the three key issues in Avengers history as they were all game changers for the series. In regards to the reprint in #150, was this entirely a deadline issue? I was just reading FOOM #12, which has an interview with Englehart, and he talks about his plans for Avengers #150 as well as for issuesa after that. He mentions that Wonder Man is being brought back in #150, and that this story was due to a directive by Marv Wolfman, who was EIC at the time. However, Wolfman stepped down and was replaced by Gerry Conway at this time. Now, the story I've heard in the past is that Conway felt that the EIC should also be writing one of the top books, so he dismissed Englehart and put himself in as Avengers writer. Thus #150 has Englehart only writing the first few pages before the reprint abruptly kicks in; then Conway shows up to start writing in #151 and provides the promised Wonder Man storyline. In other words, the deadline problem was caused by Conway firing Englehart as part of a power play. At least, that's my understanding of it. Comments? Yes, I've heard pretty much the same story. It's fair to say that Gerry Conway pissed off a number of people during his short EIC reign with actions like this. As for issue 16, it's one of the most important issues, no doubt. The book went from the original idea - a showcase for characters already starring in other titles, ala Justice League - to a true team book. Since at least three of the characters here were only featured in this title (I forget when Cap got his feature in TOS), there was a lot of character development and growth of relationships. I find the progression of the Cap-Hawkeye relationship to be just fascinating. It was a big jump to make, and a potentially risky one, sales wise, to replace all these popular characters with second stringers. I don't know if it was Stan's idea or Kirby's (that history seems so cloudy), but it was a brilliant move. |
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Oct 31, 2008 22:54:54 GMT -5
Ooooh, another interesting story that I hadn't know before! I tell ya, in this forum you learn something new everyday! Anyway, I gave this issue an 8. It is one of my all time favorite Avenger stories, as it has the perfect amount of action and regular story, as well as the closure of Zemo's death, and a new beginning! Reading this book made me want to buy the issue before it, and the issue AFTER it, so I could see what would happen! Unfortunately, both issue #15 and #17 were horribly dissappointing after I finally read both, but they still bring me memories of one of my all time favorite stories! I still have the 1993 Marvel Milestone Edition of the book, it's one of the few that I kept during when I purged my original comic book collection. It's been read so many times that it's got more wear than most of my other books! The story also gives me personal memories of visiting one of my Uncle's in Pennsylvania, a close Uncle who also loved comics! Definitely a keeper of a book, in my opinion. Content wise, I think the suspense is excellent. The Executioner, The Enchantress, Black Knight and the Melter all dare the Avengers to attack when they KNOW that the Avengers would never attack them with innocent bystanders near the battlegrounds, and then the action continues excellently from there! And I love Iron Man's final words to the new team, just as they enter the podium and announce the new line-up: "Find THE HULK!" |
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Post by Tana Nile on Nov 1, 2008 22:43:50 GMT -5
And I love Iron Man's final words to the new team, just as they enter the podium and announce the new line-up: "Find THE HULK!" Boy, they sure would keep trying to bring old Jade Jaws back in the fold. As late as 1970, in Hulk 128, the Avengers were still thinking that they might somehow get Hulk on the team! And of course, they always seem to feel a sense of responsibility to shut him down when he goes bananas. Iron Man in particular seemed to be bothered by their inability to make things work with the Hulk. I'm really curious to see if Hulk will actually be on the new roster when all this skrull crap is over. Can they finally make it work? |
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Post by bobc on Nov 3, 2008 10:52:18 GMT -5
But...but why would anyone want him on the team? He's nuts. Volatile. Yeah he's strong, but so are about 500 better candidates.
I always thought the way the Avengers badgered the Hulk to join was practically stalking behavior. It's been forty years. Time to give it up, Avengers!
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Nov 3, 2008 11:01:15 GMT -5
Boy, they sure would keep trying to bring old Jade Jaws back in the fold. As late as 1970, in Hulk 128, the Avengers were still thinking that they might somehow get Hulk on the team! And of course, they always seem to feel a sense of responsibility to shut him down when he goes bananas. Ahh yes, Tana. That is in my opinion one of the best ever Hulk issues! The cover is brilliant, and the story was some top notch quality stuff! It was silly how they screwed up in stopping the Hulk -- felt cheap to me! I loved how zany Wanda looked in that issue! bobc: I quite agree, and I also believe that the idea was quite interesting... at first. I mean, the premise behind issue 17 was nice and all -- and apart from the lousy execution, it does seem like an interesting premise. However, after a while it got saturated, and the Hulk proved that he's a blah character on a team anyway (See various "Defenders" issues...) |
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Post by Tana Nile on Nov 3, 2008 13:13:06 GMT -5
But...but why would anyone want him on the team? He's nuts. Volatile. Yeah he's strong, but so are about 500 better candidates. I always thought the way the Avengers badgered the Hulk to join was practically stalking behavior. It's been forty years. Time to give it up, Avengers! I think it was more a case of "let's get him on the team so we can keep an eye on him". Although you have to wonder, if the Hulk had not been there as the team was formed, would they have tried to recruit him? I don't think so - if anything, they would have regarded him a menace and gone after him. Hulk's brief membership is really an anomaly owing more to the need to develop a supergroup to rival DC's Justice League at the time than any characteristic of his personality. |
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Post by sharkar on Nov 9, 2008 19:59:25 GMT -5
In regards to the reprint in #150, was this entirely a deadline issue? I was just reading FOOM #12, which has an interview with Englehart, and he talks about his plans for Avengers #150 as well as for issuesa after that. He mentions that Wonder Man is being brought back in #150, and that this story was due to a directive by Marv Wolfman, who was EIC at the time. However, Wolfman stepped down and was replaced by Gerry Conway at this time. Now, the story I've heard in the past is that Conway felt that the EIC should also be writing one of the top books, so he dismissed Englehart and put himself in as Avengers writer. Thus #150 has Englehart only writing the first few pages before the reprint abruptly kicks in; then Conway shows up to start writing in #151 and provides the promised Wonder Man storyline. In other words, the deadline problem was caused by Conway firing Englehart as part of a power play. At least, that's my understanding of it. Comments? Here's what I posted about a year ago in response to some questions about #150's reprint material (originally posted somewhere in the Silver Age Artists thread): Re #150: In the letter column of #151, Marvel brass printed an apology/explanation for the reprint material. To be sure, it's related to meeting deadlines, but on the part of the writer (Steve Englehart), not the artist. According to Marvel, Steve failed to finish the story, Jim Shooter stepped in and contributed a few pages, but the book was still not finished. So at the last minute the reprint material was included, and then Gerry Conway worked with Perez to make sure the new material made sense. (Those of you with the DVD ROM--or the actual issue--can check out the explanation in #151, for more details.) On Englehart's own website, he is more succinct and says bluntly he disagreed with new Marvel management. In his words:"I was halfway through scripting this issue when an editorial shift at Marvel drove me and several other writers out the door, so the last half of the book is a reprint." Ah, office politics! For more details, check out Avengers #151's letter column, and Englehart's own website: www.steveenglehart.com/Comics%20index.html |
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Nov 11, 2008 1:08:36 GMT -5
Wow!  I never knew there was so much dissension in the Marvel Bullpen at that time! Alas, it did lead to some halfway decent stories ("The Trial!" from 160, Vizh vs. Wondy from 158, "The Bride of Ultron",) so score one for the reader, I guess. |
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Post by Shiryu on Nov 21, 2008 8:57:13 GMT -5
I hope Shiryu doesn't think I'm going on his turf for doing this, but I thought it'd be fun to see what everyone thought of other big Avenger issues! Of course not! I can't believe I hadn't posted in this topic before, but I'm glad you did. And exalt to Sharkar, whose knowledge of what was going on at Marvel in the Silver Age never ceases to amaze me As for the issue, I think it's a story that worked at the time, when the concept of Avengers was still being formed, but wouldn't now. In a way, now we are more refractory to new members, for most of us the ideal team would only have big names from the past, and the standards to be "Avengers material" have become much higher. On the other hand, the pace was rather slow and I remember to think that the bickering between Cap and Clint was pretty boring, so a 6 for me. |
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Post by sharkar on Nov 21, 2008 10:22:58 GMT -5
Thank you, Shiryu, that's very nice of you. |
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Nov 21, 2008 19:52:39 GMT -5
And exalt to Sharkar, whose knowledge of what was going on at Marvel in the Silver Age never ceases to amaze me I've come to the conclusion that sharkar worked at Marvel Comics back in the 60's and 70's. Alright sharkar, fess up, which one of those nutty Bullpenner's were you?  |
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Post by sharkar on Nov 21, 2008 20:29:05 GMT -5
And exalt to Sharkar, whose knowledge of what was going on at Marvel in the Silver Age never ceases to amaze me I've come to the conclusion that sharkar worked at Marvel Comics back in the 60's and 70's. Alright sharkar, fess up, which one of those nutty Bullpenner's were you? Thanks for the compliment. Working at Marvel--OMG, that would have been a dream come true!!! But anyone can get this kind of information; for example in the case above I just looked at issues #150 and then #151, and sure enough I saw the "apology" by Marvel. I knew of Steve Englehart's website so I checked it to see what he had to say about the topic (he has a great website, by the way). I also read Alter Ego and Back Issue on a fairly regular basis. Another periodical I really like is the Comics Buyer's Guide, it has something about every era of comics, old and new. |
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Nov 24, 2008 21:00:03 GMT -5
In all seriousness, thank you to you, sharkar, and everyone else as well! I learn something new every day here!
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Post by bobc on Dec 31, 2008 11:47:24 GMT -5
Did you all like the early Defenders? I thought the hulk really worked there--because the Defenders, at least in the first year, wasn't a real team per se. Plus the Sub Mariner and Dr. Strange were sort of--what's the right term--on the periphery of the Marvel Universe.
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Post by Tana Nile on Dec 31, 2008 13:21:24 GMT -5
Did you all like the early Defenders? I thought the hulk really worked there--because the Defenders, at least in the first year, wasn't a real team per se. Plus the Sub Mariner and Dr. Strange were sort of--what's the right term--on the periphery of the Marvel Universe. Having the Hulk in the Defenders did work (at least in the early years), but was it due to a better chemistry of the team, or was it more of a writer's fiat? I always thought that Dr. Strange seemed to have a calming effect on Hulk, who seemed to think "Magician" was a pretty good guy - at least good enough that he didn't try to smash him. The looseness of the Defenders probably suited the Hulk better than the more regulated Avengers. |
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Post by bobc on Jan 5, 2009 10:28:05 GMT -5
I guess it was probably both, in hindsight. I liked how the Defenders kind of came together by accident, mainly because the characters crossed paths a few times. The Avengers were always my favorite, but the Defenders were IMO a good alternative until they became too much like the Avengers. I liked the Defenders best when in the first year before they got so many members. More is not always better.
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I never knew there was so much dissension in the Marvel Bullpen at that time! Alas, it did lead to some halfway decent stories ("The Trial!" from 160, Vizh vs. Wondy from 158, "The Bride of Ultron",) so score one for the reader, I guess.