Should the Marvel Universe end?

[thew40]

For the past year or so, I've been reading the full run of all the X-Men titles -- Uncanny X-Men, X-Men, X-Treme X-Men, Astonishing X-Men, and New X-Men. My goal has been to view the X-Men as a massive story, as that is the way they have been written.

However, as I start my approach to the present era, I find myself wondering just how to end it?

Which leads me to this thought . . . should the Marvel Universe become finite and have an ending?

Should there be a day when the Marvel Universe (616) reaches a final chapter?

Should the Avengers, the X-Men, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Daredevil, etc. have an ending? Final battles? Tying up all the old plot threads?

Then what? Should the Ultimate Universe take it's place? Should there be a re-start, something totally new?

As much as I love the 616 characters, at a certain point, one begins to wonder if there is any sort of stuff left to tell that doesn't stretch creditibility or hurt the history/continunity of the MU.

What do you all think?

DISCUSS!

~W~

[dlw66]

thew40 said:

Should the Avengers, the X-Men, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Daredevil, etc. have an ending? Final battles? Tying up all the old plot threads?

...

As much as I love the 616 characters, at a certain point, one begins to wonder if there is any sort of stuff left to tell that doesn't stretch creditibility or hurt the history/continunity of the MU.

DISCUSS!

~W~

As I've stated elsewhere recently, for the most part I feel like the Marvel Universe I knew has already ended. We are just in the midst of some unnecessary coda.

[ozbot]

Short answer, no of course it should not have to end. To answer a question with a question, is it possible for a reader to outgrow Marvel comics? I wonder if this is the case for many naysayers on the internet today-- they just haven't learned to gracefully step aside and let a new generation have their say.

[dlw66]

ozbot said:

Short answer, no of course it should not have to end. To answer a question with a question, is it possible for a reader to outgrow Marvel comics? I wonder if this is the case for many naysayers on the internet today-- they just haven't learned to gracefully step aside and let a new generation have their say.

Oh, great. Because some of us are dissatisfied with the direction of the company and our favorite titles, we should just "gracefully step aside"

Thanks, Joe Q. I didn't realize you had a user name on this site.

Man...

Here is a post I made this morning in response to conversation on the New Avengers #27 thread:

I don't know, W. I'd take "slightly campy" over sex and gratuitous violence any day. You can't tell me Bendis' dialogue is half as good as the old Stan Lee Spidey or DD. And Busiek, Waid, Johns (not Avengers Johns!), etc. write a modern book with the style of the Silver and Bronze Ages -- works for them!!

A modern book with the style of the Silver or Bronze Ages... Are those out there? Sure, but I'd say they are few and far between. Storytelling has been sacrificed for out-of-comic marketing, for the tpb format, and quite simply because there is no sense of history. Hey, if these guys want to tell their stories in this fashion, go make up a creator-owned character and do this stuff over at Image. But don't desecrate what some of the classic authors/artists did in building this empire. Creators today have been entrusted with, as someone said elsewhere, a modern mythology. All I'm saying is, "Don't screw it up".

[thew40]

dlw66 said:

ozbot said:

Short answer, no of course it should not have to end. To answer a question with a question, is it possible for a reader to outgrow Marvel comics? I wonder if this is the case for many naysayers on the internet today-- they just haven't learned to gracefully step aside and let a new generation have their say.

Oh, great. Because some of us are dissatisfied with the direction of the company and our favorite titles, we should just "gracefully step aside"

Thanks, Joe Q. I didn't realize you had a user name on this site.

Man...

Here is a post I made this morning in response to conversation on the New Avengers #27 thread:

I don't know, W. I'd take "slightly campy" over sex and gratuitous violence any day. You can't tell me Bendis' dialogue is half as good as the old Stan Lee Spidey or DD. And Busiek, Waid, Johns (not Avengers Johns!), etc. write a modern book with the style of the Silver and Bronze Ages -- works for them!!

A modern book with the style of the Silver or Bronze Ages... Are those out there? Sure, but I'd say they are few and far between. Storytelling has been sacrificed for out-of-comic marketing, for the tpb format, and quite simply because there is no sense of history. Hey, if these guys want to tell their stories in this fashion, go make up a creator-owned character and do this stuff over at Image. But don't desecrate what some of the classic authors/artists did in building this empire. Creators today have been entrusted with, as someone said elsewhere, a modern mythology. All I'm saying is, "Don't screw it up".

. . . And yet another topic gets completely shifted into a thread about how comics today suck and how no creators today have respect for the history of the title.

This honestly has nothing to do with what I posted the topic about.

I only want to point one thing out from your rant and that's that storytelling has been sacrifaced tpb printings. I wholly disagree with that. I think, yes, for some books, the decompression is unnecessary. However, that being said, it is nice to have a longer, more drawn out story (depends on who's writing it, of course).

For more on trades and how I feel about their place in the industry, there's an eDust covered thread here: vplexico.proboards60.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=civilwar&thread=1144178260&page=1

Now then . . . can we save the usual Quesada-hating and Bendis-bashing for another thread? Please? Pretty please?

Should the Marvel Universe -- as a whole -- have a proper ending (and yes, with older creators like Roy Thomas, Jim Starlin, etc involved, as well as newer ones like Bendis, Millar, Waid, Busiek, etc.)?

~W~

[dlw66]

I felt my answer to your question was truthful... sarcastic, but it's the way I feel. Sorry for expressing my opinion.

But I'll play along with your question:

If you are suggesting a story set in the future where there is some type of apocalypse (such as DC's Zero Hour), and that is used to reboot everything, I would be in favor of that. DC has done this twice (three times?) in the past 20 years and it has allowed for creative flexibility and in my opinion has enhanced their history, not denigrated it.

If the apocalyptic story is set in the future but had no effect on the present, such as The Dark Knight Returns, then I think creators feel boxed in. Witness, in the aforementioned DK book, the reference to "after what happened to Jason". It was only about 18 months after that that the Joker killed Jason Todd in the DCU.

If it should end and be replaced by the Ultimate Universe, I wouldn't go for that. While I like the Ultimate Universe, I like it because it is different and I know it is supposed to be. What I resent is the 616 being (IMO) written "differently" but it's not supposed to be. Hope that makes sense.

[jkemble]

errr, d**n, it's like word battle of the nerds in here! (please don't ban me!)
...and, to answer the question: heeeeeeeell no! but if you want to see how that maight play out, read any of Marvel's The End books. Currently, i don't think Marvel could handle creating a compelling enough story. The only time this gimmick has been pulled off, I think with suspense and tension, plus a total kick ass story that became a classic that you all have heard of, was in the 1990's. It was called Age of Apokolipse. All the X-books came to an end, do to an event that happened in the core books. I remember the fan buzz was off the hook: "How could they cancel all the X-titles at he peak of popularity?" of course, we all know how it played out. (oh yeah, Joe and crew tried a simular thing with House of M)
But of course, what you are talking about is permanent, like if Marvel went out of buisness and decided to cap everything off. It might be good.

[The Night Phantom]

W, thanks for starting this karmaworthy thread.

“Should the Marvel Universe end?” This is a question I’ve pondered. In fact, for a while I believed it had happened. Due to a combination of disappointing product and my own disappointingly poor finances, I had dropped out of buying new comics. “Heroes Reborn” had made its mark, and I mistakenly believed that the entire Marvel Universe line had been rebooted in its image (no pun intended). The Marvel Universe I knew was dead. As it turns out, it was appropriately but a comic-book death, and eventually I was happily reunited with my beloved world of yore as it continued to forge a present and a future.

That said, I have to partially disagree with W’s preferred approach to the X-Men or other longtime Marvel Universe franchises. Each of these sagas is not a single massive story, at least in the usual storytelling sense. The tales simply were not conceived and developed that way. They are histories; and just as with real-life histories like those of the Roman Empire, the life of Abraham Lincoln, the Industrial Revolution, the invention and evolution of agriculture, and so on, it’s certainly possible to apply some narrative-like structure to the overall corpus, but that’s a happy convenience for us human beings who like to view things all neat and tidy as though made that way by a skilled hand even when we full well know they’re not. Though certainly man-made, the histories of the X-Men, of Spider-Man, of the Avengers, of the FF, et al. are, in the long run, an organic development free of a single or even composite hand guiding them from point to point.

Even so, analyses of the type that W wishes to make can be entertaining and enlightening—and even helpful to present and future contributors to the ongoing sagas.

In my view, the Marvel Universe should end when it’s finished serving its purpose. But its purpose has never been to tell a single grand unifying story. Though it suffers rough patches now and then, I think its value as a forum for a variegated kind of ongoing entertainment remains valid and will likely remain valid for quite some time.

[The Night Phantom]

ozbot said:

To answer a question with a question, is it possible for a reader to outgrow Marvel comics? I wonder if this is the case for many naysayers on the internet today-- they just haven't learned to gracefully step aside and let a new generation have their say.

Is it possible for a “new generation” to accept legacies for what they are? Is it possible for said generation to seek their novelties in things that are novelties? Is it possible that experience might breed wisdom? Is it possible for a new generation to gracefully find its place without ingraciously overextending its feelings of entitlement into demands that their elders drop out of life?

[ozbot]

Okay, okay, you got me. I guess I posted in haste and was definately smited for it. But still, I guess I've liked so much of the other stuff that's been posted on other threads that I get frustrated whenever a more modern book is discussed and it only become filled with vitriol and spite. Maybe I thought the question of "should the Marvel Universe end" was one spurred on from this kind of dissatisfaction with the current trends of Marvel comcis.

Because if I take a better stab at the question, of course I can only answer "no." Superhero comics as a genre were never created with a denoument in mind, so to expect one to occur naturally is really impossible. In other words, it is by nature episodic, and therefore by definition un-ending. Secondly, it would never make sense for a company. How could you as a reader put your faith in Marvel comics stories if you knew that the universe would end? Even if it rebooted, you would feel less interested in the characters. And this is aside from the business aspect of letting the universe end!

So to make it more personal, I would have to say that i LIKE the episodic nature of the comics. Sure, sometimes it creates restrictions for itself-- continuity, lack of legacy characters, etc. but I think I would rather put up with that to have the characters engaging in ongoing storylines, even when I'm old and grey.

Which brings me back to my tangent-ial point. Do you think that people outgrow comics? You can see why in my last paragraph, the old and grey person might grow tired of seeing the characters engaging in the "same old, same old" ongoing storylines and start demanding something new? That's what I was getting at.

[ozbot]

One more thing. I guess I'm not sure if I should reply to the original question from an "In-Universe" perspective or a "Meta-Universe" perspective. In the first situation, are you asking as if we are citizens of the Marvel Universe itself, treating it as a world onto itself and NOT as a created product from a company (which would be the Meta-Univese perspective). An example of an "In-Universe" answer, take the quesiton of "why doesn't Villain X stay out of New York and rob obscure city Y?" and answer as "Villain X does, but you don't see it because obscure Hero Z happened to save City Y but no one publized it." (The Meta-Universe responce has to do with creators setting the comics in New York City because that's where they lived.)

To end the Marvel Universe, maybe you are really asking about ending the activities of superheroes, aliens, hi-tech stuff, etc. in the lives of the citizenry. This happened maybe once or twice already. The Golden Age marvel universe, after all, ended with the Agents of Atlas and the All-Winners Squad fading away from public attention. The First Line era of superheroes ended when the First Line sacrificed themselves to stave off an alien invasion. Potentially, the Marvel Universe could have a significant Event occur, one that forces hereos to give up or go underground, and essentially, the Marvel Universe would be over. Perhaps they have to leave Earth altogether, as the mutants did in the Guardians of the Galaxy's future. Not a bad idea for a reboot if you have to, I say.

But rather, I would think that this couldn't happen. We've seen superheroes really entrenched into daily life of the Marvel Universe for far too long to be ever stripped from it. In some ways, the logical step of the Marvel Universe (or the DCU for that matter) is to push it in the other direction, when superheroes become so integrated into society that it's almost passe. Astro City or Englehart's Big Town are variations of this theme. A kind of example of "if EVERYONE is a Marvel, then No One is." In some ways, I suppose this would be an "end" to the Marvel Universe, but it would be a place too far removed from what made Marvel an interesting universe to host superhero stories in the first place that it wouldn't be worth it.

Hopefully these deep thoughts will make up for any other problems earlier in this thread

[thew40]

I suppose part of my line of thinking is that both "Sandman" and "Y: The Last Man" have had nice runs, but there is/was an ending planned for both books -- despite their success.

A lot of people bring up some great points. Though I tend to disagree with bits and pieces of what the Night Phantom posted, I found his insights quite interesting.

One of the reasons I was thinking of an actual ending to the MU is because of a book like Spider-Man. At some point, shouldn't the logic be questioned as to just how much a man can take? How much more can happen to Spider-Man if one looks at the entire history of this character?

Is there a certain point when the ideas begin to run out and the best thing to do is close up shop?

~W~

[dlw66]

I'm just curious, and I guess I'd like a personal message from the person who smited me (which has never happened to me since I've been a member of these boards) -- why'd you do it? I'm not asking for anyone else to give me the point back, because ultimately the karma points aren't going to get me/not get me through my day. I'm just wondering what the heck I said to get "docked"?

[dlw66]

ozbot said:

Okay, okay, you got me. I guess I posted in haste and was definately smited for it.

By the way, if that happened to you, I was not the one who did it. I don't smite. I only exalt. Smiting is childish and should be dealt with personally through the pm's or a general post. For more on this, see shiryu's thread "A Smiting Spree" from several months ago.

[Bored Yesterday]

Good topic. And I'll tell ya what, just because the story has an ending, doesn't mean the comics need to stop. Just tell it over and over again. That's actually what the companies have been doing for years. Revamps, relaunches, re-interpretations of characters -- these are re-tellings of old stories -- but usually from the beginning. Why not make an ending, and say, re-intepret the legend of each character every 5 or 10 years. Let them eage, get old, die young, whatever -- it could be different every time.

The companies have already been re-interpreting the origin storeis repeatedly, I think in many ways because the origin of super-heroes are somehow the most iconic stories to tell. But so could the storeis of the deaths of heroes.

The death of a hero is every bit as important as the birth and rise of the hero. It closes the narrative -- I'm all for having endings to stories -- and there's no reason that comics would have to stop if the stories ended.

And as far as I'm concerned, the Marvel Universe ended with Onslaught. Everything since has been alternate reality. Now, I want to see some creators re-interprate from the beginning and give the Universe a proper ending, something worthy of the characters.

[thew40]

dlw66 said:

By the way, if that happened to you, I was not the one who did it. I don't smite. I only exalt. Smiting is childish and should be dealt with personally through the pm's or a general post. For more on this, see shiryu's thread "A Smiting Spree" from several months ago.

It wasn't me!

~W~

[thew40]

What's interesting is seeing a lot of people claim that the Marvel Universe (for them) ended around the time of Onslaught/Heroes Reborn?

What does that mean when it comes to Kurt Busiek's run on "Avengers?"

~W~

[dlw66]

I would consider Busiek's run to be the last (at least for now) "classic" run of Avengers. That doesn't mean all of the stories were good (I thought the Triune Understanding grew a little tired), nor does that mean all that came before was good (seriously, if someone cut vol. I off shortly after John Buscema left the book I wouldn't care). I just think, given HOW I VIEW THE AVENGERS NOW (emphasis added to avoid smiting , that an era has passed. Irreparable harm? To be determined.

[Shiryu]

It's an interesting question, W.

Nowadays, one of the reasons why japanese comics (mangas) are very succesfull is that they have a clear beginning and end. This means that the reader know he will only have to buy 30 / 40 issues top, and then he can save his money for something else.

Also, from another perspective, a recent article I read from the author of the most successfull new Italian comic (Rat Man), said more or less "each character has one story (meant as message) to tell, and only one. It often happen that authors try to earn as much as possible through him, either repeating that story hundred times with minor variations or setting the character in a completely unrealistic scenario, so that in the end his message is lost". To prove this, he will end Rat Man once issue 100 is done (it's at #56 now btw, comes out every 2 months).

This being said, on both the examples I mentioned I was talking about one person writing the same comic, so it makes sense that the eventually runs out of ideas and starts writing low quality staff just for the sake of doing it. After all, we have often seen too long runs at Marvel or DC end like that. American comics instead change writers and artists every so often, so it's possible for someone new to jump on the writing seat with a completely fresh yet classic take on the character. I think Busiek's Avengers are a good example, as well as DeMatteis "Kraven's last hunt".

So, bottom line, I think that the MU should not end, because in doing so we would be deprived of anything potentially good that can still come this way.

[imperiusrex]

thew40 said:

dlw66 said:

Oh, great. Because some of us are dissatisfied with the direction of the company and our favorite titles, we should just "gracefully step aside"

Thanks, Joe Q. I didn't realize you had a user name on this site.

Man...

Here is a post I made this morning in response to conversation on the New Avengers #27 thread:

I don't know, W. I'd take "slightly campy" over sex and gratuitous violence any day. You can't tell me Bendis' dialogue is half as good as the old Stan Lee Spidey or DD. And Busiek, Waid, Johns (not Avengers Johns!), etc. write a modern book with the style of the Silver and Bronze Ages -- works for them!!

A modern book with the style of the Silver or Bronze Ages... Are those out there? Sure, but I'd say they are few and far between. Storytelling has been sacrificed for out-of-comic marketing, for the tpb format, and quite simply because there is no sense of history. Hey, if these guys want to tell their stories in this fashion, go make up a creator-owned character and do this stuff over at Image. But don't desecrate what some of the classic authors/artists did in building this empire. Creators today have been entrusted with, as someone said elsewhere, a modern mythology. All I'm saying is, "Don't screw it up".

. . . And yet another topic gets completely shifted into a thread about how comics today suck and how no creators today have respect for the history of the title.

This honestly has nothing to do with what I posted the topic about.

I only want to point one thing out from your rant and that's that storytelling has been sacrifaced tpb printings. I wholly disagree with that. I think, yes, for some books, the decompression is unnecessary. However, that being said, it is nice to have a longer, more drawn out story (depends on who's writing it, of course).

For more on trades and how I feel about their place in the industry, there's an eDust covered thread here: vplexico.proboards60.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=civilwar&thread=1144178260&page=1

Now then . . . can we save the usual Quesada-hating and Bendis-bashing for another thread? Please? Pretty please?

Should the Marvel Universe -- as a whole -- have a proper ending (and yes, with older creators like Roy Thomas, Jim Starlin, etc involved, as well as newer ones like Bendis, Millar, Waid, Busiek, etc.)?

~W~

Ahem. Just a point about Marvel's editorial policies and writing for trade paperbacks.
Mr Paul Jenkins on the mic...
poppd.blogspot.com/2005_04_01_poppd_archive.html

Writer Paul Jenkins, who we haven't heard from in a while, explains his reasons for leaving Marvel Comics' Spectacular Spider-Man.

>>“I think something has happened, a small transition or change in direction in the last year and a half where a lot of times the editorial would come to me and say they want a three-issue story arc, or specifically five-issue story arcs. That became difficult for me because this is different from the way I want to write; I like to focus on the people and if it should be a two issues that is what I want to write. Fitting into the constraints of ‘writing for the trade paperback’ is something I didn’t want to do and it didn’t suit me very well.

>>“It isn’t a bad idea for [Joe Quesada] or the people at Marvel to do, but I think we both agreed fairly quickly that wasn’t the way for me to be working for them. It wasn’t a problem, but in hindsight I can look back at it and see that it didn’t work out as well as I would have liked it to. At first I said I would try it even though it isn’t the normal way I like to write stories but after some time past I realized I shouldn’t try to do this anymore.”<<

Now as to should the MU end?
No.
There's a kid in school today. Five years old who needs a hero and maybe he'll pick up a comic and find that hero. And that hero may have a short temper or an inferiority complex or unresolved issues about the death of his partner.
But he'll be a hero. he'll be a character who despite various pressures, despite human weaknesses who'll do the right thing.
And that kid'll be happy.
There's an adult who'll want to escape the pressures of his current day to day and he'll pick up an essential TPB and he'll remember what it's like to have a hero who doesn't act tough as a posture, takes their lumps and lives in a world where the bad guys and good guys are interesting but different enough you can tell them apart.
The sad part is as a lifelong Avengers fan, the only Marvel book I could currently recommend to someone who wants these kinds of stories would be Joss Whedon's X-Men.
I have to recommend X-Men to people. yet it's a great book that takes full advantage of history, but doesn't chain itself by continuity, has fun with the characters (watching wolverine run around like a terrified pansy for two issues was worth the price of admission all by itself!!) and is telling a really good story. legends don.t have to end. They get to grow. that's the fun of being legends.
There's no reason to end as long as there are good storytellers. Yet given 90% of what Marvel is putting out now, I wouldn't mind a reset button...

[Bored Yesterday]

thew40 said:

What does that mean when it comes to Kurt Busiek's run on "Avengers?"

~W~

Honestly, have only read the first couple of issues. I understand those issues are excellent, but as far as I'm concerned, they may as well have never happened.

And really everybody -- just because a story has an ending, doesn't mean you have to quit making comics about the story. How many year one stories have we all enjoyed? Or the Earth's Mightiest Heroes limited series? If a story has an ending, you just tell it over and over again. That way, you can re-invent the characters to keep them relevant, without screwing up your continuity. You just have more and more interpretations, no 1 interpretation. Then, the challenge would be, not how death in the comics is meaningless because they always come back, but now you can tell stories about death over and over again.

[The Night Phantom]

Ozbot, I accept your gentlemanly repositioning. On the other hand, I have trouble accepting this:

ozbot said:

Maybe I thought the question of "should the Marvel Universe end" was one spurred on from this kind of dissatisfaction with the current trends of Marvel comcis.

…It seems to me that you’re not too familiar with the W’s usual bent.

Do you think that people outgrow comics? You can see why in my last paragraph, the old and grey person might grow tired of seeing the characters engaging in the "same old, same old" ongoing storylines and start demanding something new?

If we old fogeys feel that way, we can sample something new whether or not the Marvel Universe continues. Some of my favorite non-MU novelties are The Walking Dead, Mouse Guard, Rex Libris, and Gødland; and even within the MU I occasionally find a novelty like Runaways.

---

thew40 said:

A lot of people bring up some great points. Though I tend to disagree with bits and pieces of what the Night Phantom posted, I found his insights quite interesting.

Oh, do please continue in that delightful direction. ;D

OK, I’ll get more serious:

One of the reasons I was thinking of an actual ending to the MU is because of a book like Spider-Man. At some point, shouldn't the logic be questioned as to just how much a man can take? How much more can happen to Spider-Man if one looks at the entire history of this character?

You and I and Spiderwasp discussed this a bit, in the context of Avengers continuity:

spiderwasp said:

nightphantom said:

[…]

thew40 said:

Here's a question . . .

Is it automatically a bad story if history is not referred to?

No, but neither should history be cavalierly violated.

However, a series with a long, strong legacy probably has a lot of fans for whom the legacy is a selling point. If one wishes to write a slew of stories that ignore such a legacy, it may make more sense to write for a new series instead.

I couldn't agree more. There's a big difference between not mentioning the history and totally rewriting it. If you want to rewrite history, that's what Ultimates is for. I'm really not a stickler for every little detail being remembered […]

Here I am repurposing our comments (though, I hope, not in a way that subverts Spiderwasp’s words), but what I’m getting at is that you can continue to read Spider-Man stories in the same age-old continuity while making a willing suspension of disbelief vis-à-vis the history of that continuity. I can be happy reading a Spider-Man story if, in addition to the merits of the actual story itself, it doesn’t shout out actual continuity violations with Spidey’s past (or my other Marvel Universe knowledge) and it isn’t too ridiculously repetitive of stories I’m already familiar with. In my mind, Spider-Man has already had too much happen to him for me to believe (even if I accept the more obvious fantastic elements), but I’m willing to set that concern aside in exchange for an enjoyable tale.

Spider-Man’s an interesting example because of a change in the way his continuity has been handled. We’re used to the slow aging of Marvel characters, but in the early Silver Age Marvel Universe, the aging wasn’t always quite so slow. Peter Parker went through high school and started college in more or less real time. Johnny Storm had a similar evolution. I guess that in the early days, Stan wasn’t planning on his creations’ becoming timeless icons, and so he felt free—perhaps even compelled, given the Marvel hook of making characters seem startling real, psychologically—to show his main characters aging normally. Once their enduring success became apparent, those timeless characters became almost timeless in a more literal sense. If the Marvel Universe had become successful enough to commercially survive but not commercially thrive, maybe Stan’s original technique of plying real-world aging on the heroes would have continued, and we might have eventually seen many major characters’ storied lives coming to the ultimate conclusion, permanently.

But then, what would happen to the Marvel Universe? It could still survive. Over at DC, there’s room for multiple generations of heroes, for instance, the Flashes Jay Garrick, Barry Allen, Wally West, and Bart Allen. Sometimes an old-generation hero goes to the great beyond, and the younger heroes remain to carry the standard. Who knows? Maybe Marvel will eventually evolve this sort of dynamic all across its line.

---

dlw66 said:

ozbot said:

Okay, okay, you got me. I guess I posted in haste and was definately smited for it.

By the way, if that happened to you, I was not the one who did it. I don't smite. I only exalt. Smiting is childish and should be dealt with personally through the pm's or a general post. For more on this, see shiryu's thread "A Smiting Spree" from several months ago.

“Childish”? In that case, I must respond… nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah!! Yes, I smote Ozbot, once, (yea, verily, I did smite him…) for his original provocative post in this thread. (I am not your drive-by smiter, however.) I have read Shiryu’s thread; and, except for perhaps a lack of explicitness about the smiting in my post responding to Ozbot’s, I feel I acted within the boundaries Shiryu put forth.

[Tana Nile]

I've really enjoyed reading this thread. People have brought up a lot of very interesting points (perhaps somewhat off-tangent of the original post, but worthy of recognition nonetheless).

Regarding the initial question, "should the Marvel universe end?", I'd say there's really no reason for it to end. Fans appear to enjoy the 616 universe as much as ever, and as long as it is profitable for Marvel, I am sure we will see books set there. I think we'll never see any real change in the main universe- for example, heroes aging and retiring - primarily for business reasons. Also, people have a tremendous emotional investment in Peter Parker, Wolverine, etc, and having them out of the picture would be difficult for most fans to accept.

So instead we get the illusion of change:members of the Fantastic Four come and go, but we know that at some point the original four will be back; Cap gives up his costume and becomes Nomad, but eventually he reclaims his Cap identity. I think this is fine, as long as we get some entertaining stories out of it. Because truth be told, I don't necessarily want to see big changes to my favorite characters. I don't think we have to have wholesale changes in order for good stories to be told. Of course there is always the danger of repeating oneself, but good writers can find a way. Good writers understand the characters, their personalities and their flaws, and can develop stories that test their mettle and force them to make choices. But when all is said and done, our heroes are still there. There is a certain level of pleasure in seeing these heroes over and over again for 40 years, understanding them and knowing that, for example, Spidey will always try to do the right thing. I suppose this familiarity is comforting in some way, and a big part of their appeal.

Conversely, I think that's one of the best things about the Ultimate universe: we are just getting to know these characters, and they aren't always like their 616 counterparts. Things can change, drastically, in the Ult MU. There is a level of discovery here that I can only relate to the early days of the 616 universe (for me, that would be the 70's). While my heart is firmly grounded in the 616, my mind loves to explore the Ultimate MU.

[sharkar]

Posted by ozbot
the old and grey person might grow tired of seeing the characters engaging in the "same old, same old" ongoing storylines and start demanding something new?

Something we, when we are old and grey, can relate to- -such as "The Adventures of Aunt May?" Actually, ozbot, you raise a very good point. Who knows what our tastes will be like then? Though the fact that I'm still enjoying the same sort of stories as I did when I was 7 gives me a pretty good idea of what my future reading habits will be like...hmm, not a pretty picture...

As almost everyone has said already, lots of thought provoking comments in this thread (thanks, thew40). To cite just a few of the posts in this thread that made me stop and think:

ozbot, again: for his comments on the episodic nature of comics and the appeal of such.

dlw: thanks for reminding us comics are, essentially, a "modern mythology." Most of the characters we know today will never vanish; just look at the Golden Age heroes who have been resurrected and are still around (at least at DC). Not to mention Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc. (Marvel is still the "kid brother" in this regard.)

shiryu: your description of the concepts driving the mangas, and Rat Man, versus the typical Marvel or DC comic, is fascinating. This is something I'd like to know more about.

Rex's post about why people read comics is right on target, and was very touching. And I agree with his X-Men recommendation; there's something for everyone in at least one of those ubiquitous X books. As he says, they make use of history: I'm a long-time fan of Havok and Polaris and follow them to whatever X-book they happen to be in (in general, they've been well-served in the X-books).

And what boredyesterday says about storytelling is really on the mark:

...you just tell it over and over again.That way, you can re-invent the characters to keep them relevant, without screwing up your continuity. You just have more and more interpretations, no one interpretation

Yep.. .you think Homer and Shakespeare concocted characters/stories out of thin air? In many cases, they were re-telling well-known, established stories/histories with familiar characters (adding their own material, too, of course).

And tananile's point about the familiarity of the characters--they're archetypes, with a fixed place in our consciousnesses...and as such they've endured. Peter Parker may have gone to college, gotten married, revealed his identity to the world, etc., but he's basically the same guy introduced over 40 years ago.

So...to answer the original question posed by thew40: Do I think the Marvel Universe should end? No, I don't. It may ebb and flow, and there will be peaks and valleys...but it will endure. And even if it does end at some point (for economic reasons, perhaps?), the nature of this beast is to revive and reinvent itself (while retaining some key elements). Hell, most of these characters will outlast even the twenty-somethings among us--a sobering thought.

To quote Stan the Man (hey, did you know he made a cameo on Heroes recently? ): Excelsior!

[Shiryu]

sharkar said:

shiryu: your description of the concepts driving the mangas, and Rat Man, versus the typical Marvel or DC comic, is fascinating. This is something I'd like to know more about.

Anytime. I'll open a more detailed topic on the subject by the end of the week, as soon as I have a minute to word it properly

[dlw66]

nightphantom said:

dlw66 said:

By the way, if that happened to you, I was not the one who did it. I don't smite. I only exalt. Smiting is childish and should be dealt with personally through the pm's or a general post. For more on this, see shiryu's thread "A Smiting Spree" from several months ago.

“Childish”? In that case, I must respond… nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah!! Yes, I smote Ozbot, once, (yea, verily, I did smite him…) for his original provocative post in this thread. (I am not your drive-by smiter, however.) I have read Shiryu’s thread; and, except for perhaps a lack of explicitness about the smiting in my post responding to Ozbot’s, I feel I acted within the boundaries Shiryu put forth.

This would seem to belie your normally thesaurically-driven, "keeper of the board's moral conscience", politically correct behavior. Seems like a "drive-by" to me...

[thew40]

tananile said:

Regarding the initial question, "should the Marvel universe end?", I'd say there's really no reason for it to end. Fans appear to enjoy the 616 universe as much as ever, and as long as it is profitable for Marvel, I am sure we will see books set there. I think we'll never see any real change in the main universe- for example, heroes aging and retiring - primarily for business reasons. Also, people have a tremendous emotional investment in Peter Parker, Wolverine, etc, and having them out of the picture would be difficult for most fans to accept.

So instead we get the illusion of change:members of the Fantastic Four come and go, but we know that at some point the original four will be back; Cap gives up his costume and becomes Nomad, but eventually he reclaims his Cap identity. I think this is fine, as long as we get some entertaining stories out of it. Because truth be told, I don't necessarily want to see big changes to my favorite characters. I don't think we have to have wholesale changes in order for good stories to be told. Of course there is always the danger of repeating oneself, but good writers can find a way. Good writers understand the characters, their personalities and their flaws, and can develop stories that test their mettle and force them to make choices. But when all is said and done, our heroes are still there. There is a certain level of pleasure in seeing these heroes over and over again for 40 years, understanding them and knowing that, for example, Spidey will always try to do the right thing. I suppose this familiarity is comforting in some way, and a big part of their appeal.

I really agree with you here!

~W~

[The Night Phantom]

dlw66 said:

This would seem to belie your normally thesaurically-driven, "keeper of the board's moral conscience", politically correct behavior. Seems like a "drive-by" to me...

While I affirm that I feel I acted in good conscience, and while I would repeat that I wasn’t your smiter, I am compelled to respond that I seldom use a thesaurus on this board. I occasionally use one to aid in alliteration when constructing a “Who says this isn’t the _____ Marvel Age of _____ _____?!?”, and I did use one once when you called out for the mot juste, but I believe that’s about it. Stand thou corrected, effervescent effendi!

[balok]

There's no reason it has to end, but I think that Quesada and Bendis and a few others have beaten it bloody and presently have their hands locked around its throat. Its tongue bulges and its eyes dart about searching for help that may not come...

[dlw66]

dlw66 said:

thew40 said:

Should the Avengers, the X-Men, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Daredevil, etc. have an ending? Final battles? Tying up all the old plot threads?

...

As much as I love the 616 characters, at a certain point, one begins to wonder if there is any sort of stuff left to tell that doesn't stretch creditibility or hurt the history/continunity of the MU.

DISCUSS!

~W~

As I've stated elsewhere recently, for the most part I feel like the Marvel Universe I knew has already ended. We are just in the midst of some unnecessary coda.

Yep -- to quote myself, I think today my Marvel Universe officially ended. Raise your hand if you feel likewise.