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Post by dlw66 on Jan 31, 2007 12:55:40 GMT -5
February is Black History Month in the States. I thought it would be good to have a thread where we can honor Black creators and reminisce about our favorite Black characters and/or their moments. We might also hope for the day when we don't need recognitions with colors/abilities/etc. in the name in order to give someone their just due... I liked the recent Legion cover with Tyroc in all his disco-era glory! He says something to the effect of "Does anyone else think it's cold in here?" Great homage to the Cockrum/Grell art of the groovy '70's! Try this link for a great resource which might help to incite conversation -- www.blacksuperhero.com/index.html
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Post by sharkar on Jan 31, 2007 21:50:08 GMT -5
Thanks for the link to the website.
It's been said before, but the introduction of T'Challa in FF#52 (cover date July 1966, actual release date April 1966) and, a couple of months later, Bill Foster, in the Avengers, was an important step and was- -back then- -a bold move for the comics industry. Leave it to Stan the Man. And let's not forget Gabe Jones (introduced in '63).
Guys like Stan, and Stanley Kramer (who, among other accomplishments, directed a couple of important films starring Sidney Poitier--and can't you just see the young Poitier as T'Challa?) never hid their belief in civil rights for all, at a time when it was not fashionable to think that way.
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Post by imperiusrex on Jan 31, 2007 22:52:27 GMT -5
Guys like Stan, and Stanley Kramer (who, among other accomplishments, directed a couple of important films starring Sidney Poitier--and can't you just see the young Poitier as T'Challa?) never hid their belief in civil rights for all, at a time when it was not fashionable to think that way. Know what's sad? I can't see this current version of T'Challa with the same nobility and grace as Poitier. I keep thinking if Marvel only had some better writers they could really tear it up with some of these great characters. Instead they keep resorting to these shadings of gray that don't humanize, but rather lessen these legends.
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 31, 2007 23:04:41 GMT -5
It is amazing that few writers seem able to write a black character without making him speak ebonics or act out as the "angry black man". Bill Foster was an exception early in the Avengers -- a respected scientist; Pym's sidekick in a way, but one who Hank deferred to and never ceased to compliment either aloud or in his mind for Foster's abilities. I could see a little Poitier in Foster at that time.
As far as creators go, I thought Ron Wilson always did a very serviceable job on the Thing (Marvel Two-In-One seems to be where I place him; I know he did some Hulk as well).
Dennys Cowan -- I never cared much for his style. Too gritty for me (although for the Green Arrow and Question characters, it was perhaps a relevant style for the mood in their books).
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Post by sharkar on Jan 31, 2007 23:07:09 GMT -5
Imperiusrex:
I completely agree. I don't like the current version of T'Challa at all. I don't read too many current books on a regular basis, but I happened to read the X-Men/BP crossover a short while back, and this was my first exposure to the "new" T'Challa. Was I shocked! Who was this arrogant, devious womanizer? I really couldn't stand him in that X-Men crossover.
In my original post, I should have specified that I was referring to T'Challa as he was originally depicted in the 60s: regal, loyal, principled, etc., and especially, as you say, noble. I think that T'Challa would have been a perfect fit for Poitier.
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Post by imperiusrex on Jan 31, 2007 23:18:14 GMT -5
It is amazing that few writers seem able to write a black character without making him speak ebonics or act out as the "angry black man". Bill Foster was an exception early in the Avengers -- a respected scientist; Pym's sidekick in a way, but one who Hank deferred to and never ceased to compliment either aloud or in his mind for Foster's abilities. I could see a little Poitier in Foster at that time. As far as creators go, I thought Ron Wilson always did a very serviceable job on the Thing (Marvel Two-In-One seems to be where I place him; I know he did some Hulk as well). Dennys Cowan -- I never cared much for his style. Too gritty for me (although for the Green Arrow and Question characters, it was perhaps a relevant style for the mood in their books). Sigh...Bill Foster, smart, classy and well spoken. look what it got him...
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Post by imperiusrex on Jan 31, 2007 23:22:47 GMT -5
Imperiusrex: I completely agree. I don't like the current version of T'Challa at all. I don't read too many current books on a regular basis, but I happened to read the X-Men/BP crossover a short while back, and this was my first exposure to the "new" T'Challa. Was I shocked! Who was this arrogant, devious womanizer? I really couldn't stand him in that X-Men crossover. In my original post, I should have specified that I was referring to T'Challa as he was originally depicted in the 60s: regal, loyal, principled, etc., and especially, as you say, noble. I think that T'Challa would have been a perfect fit for Poitier. Oh I knew exactly what you were referring to. I have Poitier in A Patch of Blue unspooling on my DVR right now. To watch him move and talk is exactly like looking at the Luke Charles T'Challa. I know and totally agree with that call- you're 100% right there. Now I read him and he isn't cunning and smart and noble-- he's cold and calculating and cruel-exacting. Unlikeable in many measures...
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Post by The Night Phantom on Feb 1, 2007 0:19:57 GMT -5
One of my favorite dialogue exchanges in comic books comes from the eighth issue of Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars, itself an early Marvel Universe experience for yours truly. It’s a scene in which Reed Richards is repairing the Iron Man armor; Iron Man at this time still has a largely secret dual identity, and it’s also not generally known that the current Iron Man, Jim Rhodes, is a substitute for the original. Rhodey’s own arm has been bared during the repairs, and he asks:
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 1, 2007 8:30:27 GMT -5
I recently came across an interview with Mike Grell recounting his Legion artist days. He had proposed a story wherein a black character would get into some trouble, have to deal with the Legion, and then ulitmately be redeemed. He was told by then-editor Murray Boltinoff that they could not have a black character in the book (this was circa 1972-3) because he wasn't "perfect". Grell relented somewhat -- basically the character was left as-is and he was just colored "peach" instead of "brown".
This is an interesting contrast, because it was only perhaps a year or two later when the aforementioned Tyroc made his debut. In that story, it is explained that the Legion has never encountered black people because they all live on an island and don't want any outside encounters. Grell comments that they might as well have named Tyroc "Tyrone", because he was very stereotypically written (again, the "angry black man"), and to Grell, the story represented a "segregationist's dream".
I can recall that as an elementary student at this time, busing was a huge issue in the larger cities of America. The Tyroc intro. story perhaps played on those themes...
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Post by Tana Nile on Feb 2, 2007 23:32:05 GMT -5
Oh I knew exactly what you were referring to. I have Poitier in A Patch of Blue unspooling on my DVR right now. To watch him move and talk is exactly like looking at the Luke Charles T'Challa. I know and totally agree with that call- you're 100% right there. Now I read him and he isn't cunning and smart and noble-- he's cold and calculating and cruel-exacting. Unlikeable in many measures... Unfortunately this has happened to many Marvel characters of late. The heroic qualities of Panther, Captain America, etc, have been toned down, and more 'hard-edged' personalities have been put in their place. I suppose it's all in an effort to be more realistic, but I am old-school and miss the "good guys". But despite all that I have to admit I have read the last 4 issues or so of Black Panther and actually found them to be some of the more interesting Civil War books. Despite T'Challa becoming sort of Marvel's Batman (both in his capabilities and jerky behavior), it's cool to see the Panther taking on a major role in the MU.
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 3, 2007 14:29:53 GMT -5
I share the following, written by Steve Englehart and on his website. He is referring to the arc after the Secret Empire story, when Steve Rogers became Nomad:
Captain America III
153-186
This page: 177-186
A CAPTAIN AMERICA series with no Captain America. This was way out in uncharted territory, and remains one of the most honored sequences in comics' history. Meanwhile, the guy with second billing - the black guy - was the star of the show. This was also new ground for the time. But Sam Wilson, the Falcon, had established his own storyline in the book and carried on without missing a beat.
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 3, 2007 14:32:30 GMT -5
More thoughts from Englehart, again, very appropriate for our topic here:
Green Lantern
188-200
When Joe Staton and I took this book over, Dick Giordano, DC's Editor-in-Chief, told me nothing ever affected its sales; good people, bad people, good stories, bad stories, GREEN LANTERN's numbers never varied. Six months later, Dick announced to the world that sales had doubled.
When Joe and I took over, Hal Jordan, the regular GL, had quit, and his alternate, John Stewart, had assumed the role - sort of like the famous CAPTAIN AMERICA I did with Sal Buscema. Once again, it was tacitly assumed that Hal would soon reclaim his mask, but since I never repeat myself, I naturally figured, no, let's keep John. In fact, let's add GLs from other worlds, and a third from Earth, Guy Gardner, and just expand these Guardians of the Universe into the universe...
By the time we reached #200, we were ready to rename the series THE GREEN LANTERN CORPS.
PS. By becoming a full-fledged leading man, John Stewart is now part of the animated series Justice League.
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Post by Tana Nile on Feb 6, 2007 16:49:20 GMT -5
This subject brought to mind one of the earliest comics I remember reading. It was Fantastic Four 119. I believe it was written by Roy Thomas. The story involved the Torch and Thing going to an african nation, essentially South Africa, to break the Panther out of prison. Without digging the book out of my collection, I seem to recall that this nation had been illegally obtaining vibranium from Wakanda, which is why the Panther was there. Anyway, long story short, why this is a memorable book to me is that it was the first time anywhere I had seen apartheid depicted. The book showed entrances labeled "white" and "colored" and dealt quite openly with prejudice. Ben Grimm grows increasingly disgusted, until finally he tears down a wall with these previously-described doors in it.
The whole thing blew my mind. Why would people be treated differently because of skin color? I recall taking the book to my folks to get an explanation. This would not be the last time such a thing happened! Thank god, at that time the two biggest influences on me (outside of my parents) were Marvel comics and original Star Trek. These reinforced the things my parents were teaching me; things like respecting all people and trying to look beyond our differences. I realize such morality plays are not popular now, but for me, growing up, it meant a lot.
Oh, and I believe this was the first issue where Panther called himself "The Black Leopard"!
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 6, 2007 17:57:22 GMT -5
You are correct -- I read that issue a few months back from the DVD-ROM and was similarly moved. It was the first time I'd seen it. I thought, too, how odd it was that while in the middle of this typical superhero run by Thomas and Buscema there was such a political issue. Those of us who have read the Spider-Man books of the same time period can attest to the fact that Spidey was generally Marvel's soapbox for hot button stories.
bobc (where the heck has he been??) and I discussed the use of the moniker "Black Leopard" some time ago. To the best of our recollection, if the aforementioned FF book wasn't the only place it was ever used, there might only have been one other occurence.
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Post by sharkar on Feb 6, 2007 21:00:29 GMT -5
The first comics story I read that dealt explicitly with racism against African-Americans was the story in Avengers #73-#74, published in early 1969. This was the second Sons of Serpent story. I then sought out the older issues and read the original Serpent story (#32-#33, in 1966). These were (and are) powerful stories. I may have mentioned this in a previous post, but kudos to Stan and Marvel for taking a stand on this way back in 1966. dlw recently posted a link to some of the old Bullpen Bulletins and Stan's Soapboxes. I just happened to read the one from December 1968, about bigotry, in which Stan in no uncertain terms lays out his (and Marvel's) distaste about condemning entire races, nations or religions. Now, I know in the mid-60s Marvel grew wise to the fact that their audience comprised college students, so perhaps he was aiming this at the teens and older crowd, but wow--it is heartening to think that this thought-provoking stuff (the Soapbox and the stories) was read back then by impressionable kids (like me). Well, with great power comes great responsibility and Stan stepped up to the plate. I think Denny O'Neil said the same thing later on, referring to the famous Neal Adams sequence in Green Lantern with GL and an old black man: Denny said if he could reach just one bright 12-year old, and make him think, then it was all worth it. I always found it interesting that T'Challa debuted as the Black Panther in April 1966 (real time) and the given date for the emergence of the Black Panther party wasn't until later that year, around October 1966. T'Challa's short-lived Black Leopard name lasted less than a year, he reclaimed the Black Panther name in Avengers #105 (cover date Nov. 1972)...Steve Englehart's first issue as Avengers scribe! I just recently read the Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars tpb a couple months ago (never having read the original issues) and I, too, was stuck by the exchange Night Phantom quotes. It reminded me of what Clint says in Avengers #74, about why T'Challa (back then) had not announced to the world at large he was black: "...he wanted to be judged as a man...not a racial type!" Now, that might sound simplistic, and there was the implication that perhaps T'Challa should not have "hidden" his heritage from the world at large, but what was novel about #73-#74 was that Roy presented different points of view, different agendas, sympathetic and unsympathetic characters, you could agree or disagree- -but d**n, he made you think. That tag line, something like "causes are just, though a few leaders (meaning:individuals) may be wrong." I miss bobc too. I wish he would start posting again.
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 7, 2007 15:40:50 GMT -5
The first comics story I read that dealt explicitly with racism against African-Americans was the story in Avengers #73-#74, published in early 1969. This was the second Sons of Serpent story. I then sought out the older issues and read the original Serpent story (#32-#33, in 1966). These were (and are) powerful stories. I may have mentioned this in a previous post, but kudos to Stan and Marvel for taking a stand on this way back in 1966. I recently re-read these 1966 stories after many years. I first came across them in Marvel Triple Action when I was around 7 or 8 years old. We recently had moved from a very integrated school district to Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Despite that cities rich, diverse population we lived in a white neighborhood and I attended a "white" school. Having just come from the integrated setting (where busing was practiced), I was not surprised, and perhaps even impressed that my comics were dealing with issues that I knew were important to grown-ups. Like tananile said, I was taught to see through the skin to the inherent value of an individual. Seeing these stories again, as my children are in junior high and high school and competing athletically with and against students of other races and creeds, it reminded me of the immense responsibility we all have to promote tolerance and camaraderie among peoples.
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Post by sharkar on Feb 11, 2007 19:57:55 GMT -5
Well put, dlw. In terms of African-American creators: I read (for the first time) Avengers #280 a few weeks ago; it's the famous Jarvis issue in which he is reminiscing while recovering from the Masters of Evil's brutal assault. A very moving story. The finishes are by Kyle Baker, who is probably more known for his work in non-superhero genres, but he did a nice job on this issue. His Nat Turner Vol. 2 will be published soon. Oh, and I recently opened an alumni publication from my high school and discovered he'd attended my high school and was already interning at Marvel during his senior year (he is younger than I am so I didn't know him). In the alumni article he says he decided to become a cartoonist only after he failed a chemistry class (effectively ending his dream of a career in science)--gee, who knew that's all it takes?
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 12, 2007 9:56:12 GMT -5
Good story. I did not know Kyle Baker is black. He definitely has developed a style all his own.
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