Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Mar 7, 2007 15:39:59 GMT -5
I am curious about something, and I would like to see some honest introspection on this question.
Why is "The Death of Captain America" looked upon as some absolute, carved in stone statement. In just recent history we have seen "Thor's Return" and other misdirected titles, that Joe Q and company love... so why give this one so much creedence, at least until a few issues go by?
Is there any real possibility that a.) Cap is TRULY dead or b.) won't be coming back fairly soon?
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 7, 2007 15:42:36 GMT -5
Actually, you're completely wrong. It's, in this case, Quesada and Brevoort. It is only "Bendis" in ANY way in the opinion of a tiny majority of Avengers fans who feel Bendis is the evil puppermaster behind Marvle. Please try to understand that wild conspiracy theories aside, Bendis played no part whatsoever in the Death of Captain America. Well it's clear that's not happening, but I know he had editorial support. I'm just pointing out, the idea came from him. You know what this is like- what this is INCREDIBLY like? The resurrection of Bucky. Back then, the Internet half erupted with how bad it was- and then it was forged into what has been critically hailed as among the best Cap stories of all time. So yeah, forgive me for not bursting into tears when Brubaker makes another controversial Cap move which will probably turn out amazing. Well, ignoring their disapproval of many comics, like their less than stellar views on civil war, I can safely state that the Newsarama forums make Avengers Assemble! look like a haven for Marvel lovers and positive minded people. Ironic as I can tell the exact opposite story- when I picked up Cap #25 the owner said it had been selling insanely and word had clearly leaked, and that they've had several people come back and add add Cap and "Fallen Son" to their pull list already. Funny how different places work different ways. Actually I was surprised! And when you say "for some time", it was just since Cap #22 right? And I had no idea his control was this much! Marvel have already commented on that and said it's related to a story Bendis wants to tell in New Avengers but Cap is most definitely dead. Yes, and I think that's also part of the reason Nick Fury etc was pulling strings in the crowd- so his "death" wasn't a fakeout by Fury to rescue him etc. Yup, of course. Then Joe Q has astonishing foresight to have planned this for over 2 and a half years. Replace "one sniper" with "His old enemy Crossbones along with his girlfriend and beloved confidante Agent 13 in a giant plot masterminded by his oldest enemy to strike him down at his lowest" and you're almost there. Then you should never ever have started reading comics. I was certain we'd get the usual "Bendis controls Marvel" crap. We did. So now Brubaker is also astonishingly brilliant to have foreseen civil war from over 2 and a half years ago. Which is why I never said that. And anyone who thinks they make decisions based on ONLY that owns an even nicer one.
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Post by balok on Mar 7, 2007 16:05:04 GMT -5
Actually, you're completely wrong. It's, in this case, Quesada and Brevoort. It is only "Bendis" in ANY way in the opinion of a tiny majority of Avengers fans who feel Bendis is the evil puppermaster behind Marvle. Please try to understand that wild conspiracy theories aside, Bendis played no part whatsoever in the Death of Captain America. Perhaps you're right. My chief point, which you have acknowledged, was to refute that Brubaker did it alone - as seemed to be your original assertion. Throwing in Bendis was a cheap shot which I shall have to chalk up to my general dissatisfaction with Marvel these days, and chiefly with Bendis, whom I regard as one of the worst comic book writers ever. But, for whatever it's worth - he's not responsible for this. I do believe (based on his comments) that Quesada had a lot to do with it. He expressed a view that Captain America was "out of step with the times" or words to that effect. Such a statement could only come from a man who does not understand what Captain America stands for. It's the same sentiment Sally Floyd uttered in Frontline #11. Why is this important? Because it goes to my deep dissatisfaction with Marvel generally, these days. I haven't disliked Marvel's editorial decision making this much since Heroes Rebored. Well it's clear that's not happening, but I know he had editorial support. I'm just pointing out, the idea came from him. You know what this is like- what this is INCREDIBLY like? The resurrection of Bucky. Back then, the Internet half erupted with how bad it was- and then it was forged into what has been critically hailed as among the best Cap stories of all time. So yeah, forgive me for not bursting into tears when Brubaker makes another controversial Cap move which will probably turn out amazing. I can't speak to the Winter Soldier stories, as I never read them. And it's certainly true that no one stays dead in comics. Even if it takes until Quesada's departure from the center seat, sooner or later Rogers will return as Cap. Ironic as I can tell the exact opposite story- when I picked up Cap #25 the owner said it had been selling insanely and word had clearly leaked, and that they've had several people come back and add add Cap and "Fallen Son" to their pull list already. Funny how different places work different ways. I don't doubt that this issue is selling insanely well. Just as did the equally lame marketing stunt DC pulled back in 1993. I hope Marvel does a better job with this than DC did. People buy stunt sales books because they're misinformed about why some comic books are worth a lot of money. The Death of Superman never will be, and neither will this. But Marvel will make a lot of money on it. Marvel have already commented on that and said it's related to a story Bendis wants to tell in New Avengers but Cap is most definitely dead. I think I just threw up a little in my mouth. And anyone who thinks they make decisions based on ONLY that owns an even nicer one. I think recent events, such as Civil War, and now this, demonstrate pretty convincingly that quality storytelling isn't high on their list of priorities!
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Post by imperiusrex on Mar 7, 2007 16:08:10 GMT -5
Sigh. Has Joe Q been EIC ever since Brubaker began his run? And do plots sometimes change course (especially since marvel has known about CW for about a year now...) Forgoing all else, (such as mental state because Lord knows Cap has never overcome being at a low point and still being defiant...) does one bullet from a sniper's rifle do Cap in? Does this come from the real world-ization that is unfolding out of Civil War, but has been slowly growing in the MU for the last several years? If the answer to all of these is yes, then I don't see any reason to go further... Oh and just putting out a good story doesn't redeem a bad decision. I'll say it again, as Denny O'Neil put it, the writers editors, et al. are caretakers of legends. he still regrets killing Robin the way they did. Max Allan Collins, a good writer wrote a good story, but readers chose to off Robin in a manner unbefitting.So yes a story can be very good and still contain a conclusion not fitting a legend. Anyway, we'll see how this all plays out. And to presume from my words that Marvel solely makes decisions on financial basis when I don't actually say that is just wrong. is it a huge factor? well it is for just about everyone else in the corporate world isn't it? why wouldn't it be for marvel?
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 7, 2007 16:08:50 GMT -5
Funny, Balok, because I think Civil War and now this have demonstrated VERY clearly that storytelling is their HIGHEST priority.
The Death of Superman analogy just doesn't work; if Marvel had said "Hey everyone, we're killing Cap in THIS story" they would have racked up TONS more sales, just as DC did with DoS. Instead, they kept quiet until the day it was released, which is not a smart move if this was purely profit based. Not to mention the fact that the DoS was done purely for sales and sales alone- but I doubt that way back in 2004, Brubaker said "I've got it! Let's do something to garner me sales in early 2007!"
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BigDuke
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 136
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Post by BigDuke on Mar 7, 2007 16:10:13 GMT -5
Doc, you got a karma point from me.
I have been reading Cap regularly (unlike some of the folks on this board with the torches and the pitchforks) and this makes sense. This story has been building since before CW, and could be argued it has been building since issue #1. The timing, coming on the heels of CW, is bad because of all the publicity and chatter that have been going on around that. But I think Brubaker has had this planned out and has the aftermath planned out. And while I prefer a little less decompression in my comic stories, Brubaker actually stays on task, giving the main story and side stories and moving them all along.
Guys, read Cap and ignore the Civil War junk and you will see a good story developing.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 7, 2007 16:14:13 GMT -5
I know that he had this planned, the only difference civil war makes is that he moved it to about 2 issues earlier to coincide with the ending. PLUS he has the whole thing planned out to issue 50 and said many times that CW did not make him change his plans. I think killing Captain America would have been a rather enormous change in said plans, no?
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Post by imperiusrex on Mar 7, 2007 16:27:28 GMT -5
Funny, Balok, because I think Civil War and now this have demonstrated VERY clearly that storytelling is their HIGHEST priority. The Death of Superman analogy just doesn't work; if Marvel had said "Hey everyone, we're killing Cap in THIS story" they would have racked up TONS more sales, just as DC did with DoS. Instead, they kept quiet until the day it was released, which is not a smart move if this was purely profit based. Not to mention the fact that the DoS was done purely for sales and sales alone- but I doubt that way back in 2004, Brubaker said "I've got it! Let's do something to garner me sales in early 2007!" Really? have you got the internal memo from DC that says so? A quote from someone? Dan Jurgens posing in front of mountains of cash saying "thanks for dying Kal-el! I'm buying me a boat!" Anything but your opinion? Because you get on everyone else when they say that about Marvel, true? maybe they thought they were telling a good story,too? And Joe Q has hardly quelled rumors that Cap was gonna die in CW, so there have been rumblings. Cap is not as big as Superman. Leaking it would've hardly been the same. Superman is far more recognizable worldwide and is far more popular in terms of licensing. Killing Spider Man would be much more of an equivalent. And how do you know Brubaker's thought process? Is there no way this story could've unfolded differently? I doubt it. Maybe he made a decision to get the book more press. It was selling pretty marginally before Civil War. www.icv2.com/articles/news/7257.htmlthis issue wasn't even selling above the 50k mark.
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 7, 2007 16:30:58 GMT -5
IN fact I don't think he had this planed, I have seen many interviews with brubaker, and he talks about how he plans to continue cap through issue fifty. Do you have some link or something that says. I planed on killing him all along, if you don't then really you are blowing smoke
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 7, 2007 16:33:58 GMT -5
For God's sake, he STILL plans on doing Cap through issue 50. If the man says, in the last month, that Cap 25 was originally in Cap 27 or 28 but got moved up, and that- important part- CIVIL WAR DID NOT MAKE HIM CHANGE HIS PLANS IN ANY WAY, that is pretty definitive.
He flat out said Cap does not die in civil war actually. So did Bruabker. Pretty definitive.
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Post by balok on Mar 7, 2007 16:40:56 GMT -5
Funny, Balok, because I think Civil War and now this have demonstrated VERY clearly that storytelling is their HIGHEST priority. You're entitled to your opinion, even when it's wrong. The Death of Superman analogy just doesn't work; if Marvel had said "Hey everyone, we're killing Cap in THIS story" they would have racked up TONS more sales, just as DC did with DoS. Instead, they kept quiet until the day it was released, which is not a smart move if this was purely profit based. Not to mention the fact that the DoS was done purely for sales and sales alone- but I doubt that way back in 2004, Brubaker said "I've got it! Let's do something to garner me sales in early 2007!" Over the course of two or three years, that story could have unfolded in a lot of different ways. You have no guarantee that Brubaker's original plan was to kill of Cap. This could have been something that Marvel decided to do as a capper for Civil War; perhaps Brubaker's original plan would have Cap escaping this hazard as he has escaped so many others. Certainly Quesada's hand was in this, judging from his comments. And no, you can't take what Brubaker says as guaranteed truth, without asking yourself which is more likely: Brubaker saying, "Oh, yes, this is how the story was meant to unfold, I fitted it nicely into the aftermath of Civil War." or Brubaker saying, "No, actually I didn't want to kill the character, but Marvel editorial made me do it." Remember, just like you and I, the man wants to keep his job. So he won't badmouth the boss. I don't fault Marvel for keeping sales at the top of their priority list - all vendors must do that. I fault them for forgetting that producing a high quality product leads to sales, and repeat sales. Not stunts.
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Post by imperiusrex on Mar 7, 2007 16:45:06 GMT -5
For God's sake, he STILL plans on doing Cap through issue 50. If the man says, in the last month, that Cap 25 was originally in Cap 27 or 28 but got moved up, and that- important part- CIVIL WAR DID NOT MAKE HIM CHANGE HIS PLANS IN ANY WAY, that is pretty definitive. He flat out said Cap does not die in civil war actually. So did Bruabker. Pretty definitive. There have been rumblings since day one a major character would die in Civil War. Just because Joe said it wouldn't be Cap didn't mean anything. He also said there was possibly going to be something happening in Spider Man's life as a result of all this and people started picking out tombstones for Mary Jane. If he gives it away then of course there's no reveal. Didn't Joe talk about how fun it was going to be to kill Speedball? He does that sort of thing, okay? And if you guys all believe that a writer never changes his plans and they're set in stone from issue 1 to issue 50, there's nothing I can do that will change your minds obviously. I've been in editorial meetings where things get changed on the day of press, but if don't believe that nothing I can say will ever convince you. I mean it's not like movies ever get reshot during or after they've been completed because someone decided on a different ending, right...?
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 7, 2007 17:09:23 GMT -5
So basically, the contention here is that Ed Brubaker was lying when he said he hadn't had to change his plans.
You and I both know Balok, he could EASILY have said "Yeah, it made me rework things pretty drastically but I love the way it's going!" or whatever just as easily, but instead, he specifically says that the only thing it did was make hi mmove his plan for Cap 27 or 28 back to 25. So tell me, was he lying? And if so, why?
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Post by balok on Mar 7, 2007 17:19:16 GMT -5
So basically, the contention here is that Ed Brubaker was lying when he said he hadn't had to change his plans. I don't know the man well enough to trust him. You might. I do know that people, generally, do not badmouth their bosses.
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Post by imperiusrex on Mar 7, 2007 17:55:15 GMT -5
I'm not saying that Brubaker lied or Joe Q pressured him, simply that plans do change and people change their stories when another idea comes along. Tom B says this a hundred times during his Civil War q &a, why so hard to even allow that it could've happened here and they're just not broadcasting it?
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Post by thew40 on Mar 7, 2007 18:19:44 GMT -5
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Post by Tana Nile on Mar 7, 2007 18:26:52 GMT -5
Actually it was issue 21 where she was compromised. I had been expecting her to turn on Cap at some critical moment, so when I heard he'd been shot I figured she probably pulled the trigger. I see on Newsarama that Marvel is now saying Steve Rogers is definitely dead, despite what was said in the Initiative. At this point, I would not be at all surprised to see them have Stark appoint a new Cap and hand the pretender his shield. Pure speculation of course. So I guess the lesson here is, the ends justify the means, it's all about winning at any cost, and if you are out of step with current trends, and stupid enough to believe in things like freedom, there's no place for you in the Marvel Universe. I'm so glad I don't have any kids reading comics.
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Post by balok on Mar 7, 2007 18:54:37 GMT -5
So I guess the lesson here is, the ends justify the means, it's all about winning at any cost, and if you are out of step with current trends, and stupid enough to believe in things like freedom, there's no place for you in the Marvel Universe. I'm so glad I don't have any kids reading comics. That's certainly seems to be the case. I also found a cover depicting Tony holding Cap's shield as if that villain had an right to even touch it - I think this was The Initiative. I might have given Marvel a chance on this storyline if it hadn't come hard on the heels of the magnificent bag of crap that was Civil War.
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Mar 7, 2007 21:04:40 GMT -5
Wow -- That must be some Dr. Doom weapon. Was it a bullet or some kind of energy beam? And what prevented Cap from dodging around like he normally does when people shoot at him? Was he doped up?
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Mar 7, 2007 21:07:57 GMT -5
And what exactly is the comparison between meta-human registration and the real world? I don't get that at all. Is that like the urban legend where Bruce Lee had to register his hands as deadly weapons as though they were firearms?
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Mar 7, 2007 21:22:15 GMT -5
******** SPOILERS ******** SPOILERS ******** SPOILERS * * * * * * ... And what prevented Cap from dodging around like he normally does when people shoot at him? Was he doped up? Cap, or really Steve at this point, because he had his uniform on, but no mask, spotted the laser sight on the back of the guard in front of him, and then spotted the window with the shooter. He is basically trying to get in between the shooter and the guard, trying to get people down, when he gets it. It basically plays that Steve probably thought it was an escape attempt, not an assassination attempt. ...and you know, there is still enough wiggle room in the panels to play it off that maybe Sharon doesn't pull the trigger on point blank shots. She wasn't exactly there yet, in the original panels, and you only see her shooting when she has a memory trigger to "remember"... which could also be played that it was just an implanted memory if they wanted to exonerate her later on. It's doubtful, but not impossibe... or even improbable. I picked this up tonight, per my plan of the last few weeks. I didn't know until this morning what would actually happen in this issue. I also picked up Mighty Avengers #1 (3.5 out of 5 rating from me), and I plan to pick both these series up for the next 3-4. Rght now, my gut tells me I will be picking up Captain America longer than I will Mighty Avengers, but I am reserving final judgement.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Mar 7, 2007 22:01:37 GMT -5
I haven’t read the issue, but I’m a little confused—do longtime readers actually think Cap is dead and staying that way?
Also—did anyone else think back to CA #351?
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Post by The Night Phantom on Mar 7, 2007 22:10:04 GMT -5
Also—I guess the good news is that Aunt May will probably pull through!
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 7, 2007 22:12:24 GMT -5
Also—I guess the good news is that Aunt May will probably pull through! And Uncle Ben should be along shortly to join her!!
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Post by thew40 on Mar 8, 2007 0:01:53 GMT -5
Also—I guess the good news is that Aunt May will probably pull through! Heheh. I am quite curious as to just how Marvel will handle this. I'm locked in on Cap until this story is over. Looks like they gained another read. Oh, hey! How did I lose another point of karma? I didn't do anything. ~W~
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Post by biscuit022 on Mar 8, 2007 1:56:59 GMT -5
SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS Tone, I don't think Sharon is the second shooter. I think its the US Marshall behind Cap during that sequence. I hope it is Sharon, because I think it makes for a better story, but I don't think the construction of the actual event works if Sharon is the shooter. Plus, the gun that apparently shoots Cap while he's laying there, and the gun that we see Sharon using are two different guns, yet the shooting gun matches the Marshall's gun. My full explanation is here if you're interested: thefret.blogspot.com/Great issue all around. Not happy with the outcome, but happy with how well exectuted the story turned out. Bru and Epting did good.
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Post by von Bek on Mar 8, 2007 8:58:05 GMT -5
Brubaker must have changed at least part of his plan, because without CW Steve Rogers would not be unmasked and in custody in this issue. I will wait until I read the issue to elaborate further...
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 8, 2007 9:05:19 GMT -5
For God's sake, he STILL plans on doing Cap through issue 50. If the man says, in the last month, that Cap 25 was originally in Cap 27 or 28 but got moved up, and that- important part- CIVIL WAR DID NOT MAKE HIM CHANGE HIS PLANS IN ANY WAY, that is pretty definitive. He flat out said Cap does not die in civil war actually. So did Bruabker. Pretty definitive. Actually, in an interview on Newsarma posted today, he stated that Civil war allowed him to kill Cap, and he felt the story was going to be better this way. He was not orginally planing on killing cap. If you have an interview that proves otherwise, would love to see.
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Post by Van Plexico on Mar 8, 2007 9:35:08 GMT -5
So... any bets on how long until Cap comes back from 1602?
(With a shout out to the guy who suggested that theory: DefDave of AA!)
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 8, 2007 9:45:53 GMT -5
What is very interesting is Brubaker is saying this is a 9 part story, basically saying the comic is going to continue, but Loeb in the Fallen Son article on Newsarma, states that the final issue is 26.
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