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Post by Shiryu on Mar 7, 2007 6:51:07 GMT -5
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 7, 2007 8:35:29 GMT -5
Well, if this spoiler is actually true (meaning it is not a fake out in the comic) then I guess I am pretty much done with Marvel. Oh well, it will save me a ton of money.
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Post by sph683 on Mar 7, 2007 8:53:33 GMT -5
Another day, another pointless shock "death". Anybody surprised? How much longer will we have to suffer through JoeQ's reign of terror? How much more damage will that idiot do to Marvel characters, and their history before he finally steps down?
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Post by von Bek on Mar 7, 2007 9:04:01 GMT -5
Words fail me... *shakes head*
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Post by sharkar on Mar 7, 2007 10:04:09 GMT -5
It was on the TV news this morning--and in the newspapers!
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Post by Shiryu on Mar 7, 2007 10:09:06 GMT -5
It looks like this is the big event meant to happen in CW7... the one that will bring dr Strange in the Avengers (which doesn't really fit, Strange is already in the Avengers at the end of CW7, while this person is still alive), and that Wolverine will consider a conspiracy... being right !
As such, I think he isn't really dead, and it was all just to make him disappear for a while and then be back with a new secret ID.
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Post by sharkar on Mar 7, 2007 10:17:27 GMT -5
As such, I think he isn't really dead, and it was all just to make him disappear for a while and then be back with a new secret ID. You are probably right. Strange, last night I was re-reading the Steranko Visionaries tpb, specifically Cap #113, in which "Steve Rogers" dies. Eerie! Here's a link to today's Daily News article (a lot of the content is already included in the link to Newsarama that Shiryu provided): www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/story/503132p-424376c.html |
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Post by balok on Mar 7, 2007 10:21:38 GMT -5
Well, if this is real, it simply means that Quesada has done to the symbol what he has already done to the Marvel Universe.
I think, though, that we can be certain a future, sane editor in chief with a more talented group of creators, will find a way to bring him back.
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Mar 7, 2007 10:26:10 GMT -5
Cue Captain Clomerica!
Or maybe they can grab Steve Rogers from an alternate timeline, like just after he gets the Super Soldier serum, but before he actually gets into active duty overseas. You know before he goes to war and loses Bucky, and the changes those events must have caused in him.
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Post by imperiusrex on Mar 7, 2007 11:14:48 GMT -5
I'm done.
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 7, 2007 11:20:26 GMT -5
W and Doom --
It's now your job to tell us when you think it's safe to come back. As you guys are our "current readers", keep us informed!
I will buy Ultimates II #13, finish out EMH II, and then I'm in tpb and DVD-ROM land until futher notice. So, I'll still be giving the company my hard-earned dollars in terms of old stuff and action figures, but as far as the Marvel Universe goes, I'm out. Tell me when I can come back (which will be when I recognize it again!).
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Post by balok on Mar 7, 2007 11:22:26 GMT -5
I think so. Marvel is crap, now. |
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Post by Tana Nile on Mar 7, 2007 11:37:12 GMT -5
It's ridiculous, but when I got the word of this, I felt like I had been punched in the chest.
Out, indeed.
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Mar 7, 2007 11:54:53 GMT -5
Despite my cynical comment earlier, I am going forward with my plans to take up Cap's solo title, and Mighty Avengers for at least 2-3 months.
My hope is that by "killing" Captain America it will give Marvel the chance to start undoing this whole Civil War mess... which they have to do, right? You can't have the Pro-regger's cleaning up the anti-regger's forever, even if you do sprinkle in some old school baddies, and escapees here and there.
Ultimately something will shift everything back, and I beleive this will be the first step (if Cap's surrendering in CW#7 wasn't the first step already). It always takes something tragic to start waking people up, and this could do it. And you know it's going to take the efforts of anti-reg people too, during WWHulk. It's only a matter of time people.
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Post by imperiusrex on Mar 7, 2007 12:16:39 GMT -5
let me explain further.
it's not that Cap dies that I'm done, rather it's because an editorial decision that Marvel made to get some headlines.
DC did it with Superman?
Absolutely they did.
They also gave him a great strong storyline that sent him off with a sense of the spirit and will of the character.
this is just a compounding of the "real world" MU that has Cap unable to walk ten feet without getting picked off.
had it been a good story that led to all this, I would accept it.
instead marvel keeps piling on their errors because it's getting some sales.
but you can only unmask spider man or kill Cap so many times.
At some point, you're just going to have sell based on good stories...
Until they can do that, I'm done.
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Post by balok on Mar 7, 2007 12:44:57 GMT -5
...has Cap unable to walk ten feet without getting picked off. had it been a good story that led to all this, I would accept it... Exactly. I'm reminded of what Samuel L. Jackson said to George Lucas about Mace Windu - "I don't want him to die like a <punk>" (I'm censoring here before the board gets the chance.) Well, if these stories are true - Captain America just died like a punk. Marvel has taken the Iron Age right into the Rust Age. The way they've been writing these characters recently, it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that someone controlled by Iron Man's nanites pulled the trigger at Iron Man's programming, or that Reed Richards designed the weapon. Still, the market doesn't seem concerned (I dumped my Marvel stock a little while ago because of my disdain for the Marvel decision makers, and have been following it occasionally since). |
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 7, 2007 12:47:17 GMT -5
And we don't think Cap would be out-of-costume? Or that his moving by the authorities would be covert, with the utmost security that SHIELD could provide? No, instead we get Jack Ruby...
Rex and Balok -- my sentiments exactly. And Rex, kudos on the Superman analogy and the differences to the present situation.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 7, 2007 13:45:38 GMT -5
..... Words do fail me.
You guys act completely as though Quesada decided this, or Millar or Bendis wrote it, or one of these creators you hate so much did this.
You don't get it.
This was Ed Brubaker. Ed Brubaker, whose Cap run has been WIDELY, WILDLY praised. Ed Brubaker who even most of you guys liked, Ed Brubaker who wrote the best Cap I have ever read. This was HIS idea, HIS execution, and while obviously the editors went through with it, claiming this is a stunt for money, claiming this is done by Bendis or whoever is, to anyone who pays any attention to Brubaker and his comics, total and complete bullcrap.
So this is the summary; most fo you haven't read this issue. You automatically blame it on those you dislike. You have no idea how good the execution was- and with Brubaker's track record, it is sure to be fantastic. You have no idea how it's done. You say this is the marvel of today as though this were anything but Ed's decision.; In short, you are yet again leaping to conclusions.
Captain America is my favourite character and you know what; I want, unlike you guys, to WAIT AND READ THE GOD-DAMNED ISSUE before I immediately whine yet again about all that is wrong with marvel.
Oh, and just for reference- it was the RED SKULL who organized this, and Crossbones and Sharon Carter who pulled the triggers, not Iron Man or any of that since, y'know, there was absolutely no way in Hell they even remotely indicated that as a vague possibility.
PS; Good GOD, how did my karma go down by 4 in like a day!?
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 7, 2007 13:48:59 GMT -5
Doom -- you're awesome!
Well you fill me in, because I won't be buying this (not a regular Cap reader anyway).
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Post by Shiryu on Mar 7, 2007 13:51:27 GMT -5
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 7, 2007 13:56:41 GMT -5
Simple, dlw.
For some months, the Red Skull has been preparing his endgame, a grand plot to kill Cap. He recruited Sin, hiks daughter, and old Cap villain Crossbones. He got Armin Zola onside, and was given a "one-time only" weapon from Doctor Doom. He also got the diabolical Doctor Faustus, who meddles with people's minds, onside. Faustus has been tampering with Sharon Carter's mind. They spoke about how this war gave them the perfect oppurtunity. Typical Brubaker outwits us again though, most of us predicted some grand massive thing but instead....
Cap is in front of the court. In the crowd are Nick Fury, Agent 13 (his girlfriend) and Winter Soldier, with a plan to bust him out. They are going to execute it... when he is shot thrice. The sniper is Crossbones, I THINK using the weapon given by Doom for extra effect on Cap. He is then shot again by Agent 13, who is being mind controlled by Dr Faustus. This was all, as it transpires, the Red Skull's doing- so simple yet so brutally effective.
Oh, and just for reference... Armin Zola is CLONER, so is this even the real Cap? Probably, but we don't know... we can assume so given the hype, as Marvel, whatever you may think of them, are not idiot enough to hype up a death like this if he'll return imminently. And they've actually been pretty low key hyping this issue.
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Post by von Bek on Mar 7, 2007 13:57:39 GMT -5
I only made a comment about the idea of killing Captain America.
You´re right Doc, I haven´t read the issue yet, but because Brubaker is my favourite Marvel writer at the moment I don´t think he needs shock schlock deaths to write a good and interesting story (c´mon, we all know Steve Rogers will be back sometime in the future).
And, except for you, no one mentioned Bendis in this thread.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Mar 7, 2007 14:00:02 GMT -5
"Shock deaths"? has it EVER occured to you, VonBek, that this isn't jsut a shock death? We already know he was planning it before Civil War was even in the pipeline, and this story is all about the idea of what Cap means so yes, I think it will be better and more interesting than anything before.
Oh, and I used Bendis as an example. Millar and Bendis were going to crop up in this no matter what, anyone who reads this board at all could tell.
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Post by von Bek on Mar 7, 2007 14:07:58 GMT -5
"Shock deaths"? has it EVER occured to you, VonBek, that this isn't jsut a shock death? Err... no? We already know he was planning it before Civil War was even in the pipeline, and this story is all about the idea of what Cap means so yes, I think it will be better and more interesting than anything before. You knew, I didn´t. Oh, and I used Bendis as an example. Millar and Bendis were going to crop up in this no matter what, anyone who reads this board at all could tell.  But you got a karma point for being so "positive"  |
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Post by balok on Mar 7, 2007 14:10:00 GMT -5
Brubaker may have proposed this idea, but it would have died right there if the powers that be - Quesada and Bendis by most accounts - did not approve it. You don't kill a major Marvel character without editorial approval. If you think Brubaker could have done that, then you're misinformed about the creative process. Maybe Arnim Zola is a cloner - but it would be a cheap writing trick indeed to create a clone for the simple purpose of sales stunt killing.
I haven't read a whole lot of the Newsarama site, but I don't recall seeing too many negative reviews there. I think they're like AICN in that regard: more fanboy that serious journalism.
Thanks for the summary, though - I just returned from getting my books at lunch, and I took all remaining Marvels off my pull sheet. The owner wasn't surprised - I was the third one today who canceled some or all of their Marvel books.
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Post by thew40 on Mar 7, 2007 14:32:54 GMT -5
..... Words do fail me. You guys act completely as though Quesada decided this, or Millar or Bendis wrote it, or one of these creators you hate so much did this. You don't get it. This was Ed Brubaker. Ed Brubaker, whose Cap run has been WIDELY, WILDLY praised. Ed Brubaker who even most of you guys liked, Ed Brubaker who wrote the best Cap I have ever read. This was HIS idea, HIS execution, and while obviously the editors went through with it, claiming this is a stunt for money, claiming this is done by Bendis or whoever is, to anyone who pays any attention to Brubaker and his comics, total and complete bullcrap. So this is the summary; most fo you haven't read this issue. You automatically blame it on those you dislike. You have no idea how good the execution was- and with Brubaker's track record, it is sure to be fantastic. You have no idea how it's done. You say this is the marvel of today as though this were anything but Ed's decision.; In short, you are yet again leaping to conclusions. Captain America is my favourite character and you know what; I want, unlike you guys, to WAIT AND READ THE GOD-DAMNED ISSUE before I immediately whine yet again about all that is wrong with marvel. Oh, and just for reference- it was the RED SKULL who organized this, and Crossbones and Sharon Carter who pulled the triggers, not Iron Man or any of that since, y'know, there was absolutely no way in Hell they even remotely indicated that as a vague possibility. PS; Good GOD, how did my karma go down by 4 in like a day!? Agreed. However, because I've had a pretty crappy day and I know that the majority of people here will talk about nothing but hype and shock value instead of constructivly critical, I'm not going to really say anything about it. ~W~ |
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Post by Tana Nile on Mar 7, 2007 14:51:29 GMT -5
OK, I've calmed down and read the book.
As usual, Brubaker does a great job. It was no surprise that Sharon pulled the trigger (if you haven't been following this book, she's been a sleeper agent for some time), and it was handled well.
However, how final is this death? I didn't buy Civil War:the Initiative, which is also out today, but my comic shops guys directed me to a page in the book that leaves me wondering about Steve's fate. In it, Ms. Marvel is trying to talk Spider Woman into registering. Spider-woman yells at her, "Cap is dead!" To which Ms. Marvel responds, that no, he isn't, he is recovering at the raft, and we let people think he was dead to protect him.
So either he's still alive or Ms. Marvel is one of the worst people ever. Or, Tony propagated the lie that Cap is alive, or...who knows. But right now, I don't see conclusive proof that Cap is dead. Of course, he's my favorite character, so I am hoping and praying he isn't dead. Hell, I'd even be happy if he was Ronin.
But I'm not sure we can say for a fact that he's gone.
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Post by thew40 on Mar 7, 2007 14:55:06 GMT -5
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Post by balok on Mar 7, 2007 15:04:49 GMT -5
Interesting that they're going to devote at least part of issue 26 to an autopsy. Presumably, this would be to ensure that the man who died on the courthouse steps actually was Cap. But also, perhaps, to assure readers that Cap is well and truly dead. Although there are a number of ways he could still return, having an autopsy closes some of those doors.
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Post by imperiusrex on Mar 7, 2007 15:20:51 GMT -5
I've said it before and will say it again.
No idea exists in a vacuum. If Brubaker wrote the story, Joe Q approved it.
And in fact he may have suggested it. Having worked for magazines for twenty years I can tell you that eds in chief often add ideas, especially if they need to spur sales.
But regardless, this is a MARVEL decision. No writer gets to kill or alter characters without approval.
Period.
And I don't care how the story unfolds, Captain America has run the gauntlet a million times, faced super speed assassins, laser death traps, but one sniper does him in.
It's just not a great, grand ending for a legend.
I don't care if it's the best written story since the Bible.
And how many people in this thread blamed Bendis anyway? It was just a pre-emptive strike, evidently??
I blamed the real world-ization of Marvel that has taken place, that is unfolding out of Civil War and that to me is still valid.
And we can blame Marvel. They're the publisher. They know fans will be upset. That's hardly unforeseeable to them and I'm practically guarantee Joe Q will address it by the end of the week. And I'm sure if someone asks him, he'll say the buck stops at his desk. That, I give him credit for.
But this is a Marvel decision.
To deny that is just moronic, really.
And also anyone who thinks Marvel doesn't make decisions based on financial capitalization, then you must own a lovely unicorn.
Keep in mind, I think marvel often should make financial decisions, especially in a competitive market.
I just don't have to like them.
And my hope is that when they screw up, someone comes with a better paradigm for making money and putting out books that I enjoy.
Life goes on...
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But you got a karma point for being so "positive" 