Bendis Says: "The Korvac Saga does not hold up"

[Van Plexico]

I would rank the Korvac Saga among the five best and most important Avengers "big" stories.

[scottharris]

Jun 25, 2008 20:48:14 GMT -5 Van Plexico said:

I would rank the Korvac Saga among the five best and most important Avengers "big" stories.

This is very much true.

The story that has lost it's impact for today's readers is The Kree Skrull War, because it was so influential that pretty much every epic or cosmic story in comics has followed in its footsteps; reading it now, if just doesn't have the impact because what was groundbreaking then has become the template for stuff now.

The Korvac Saga, however, still kicks major ass in my opinion. Easily one of the top 5 Avengers storylines. The Korvac Saga, Mansion Siege, Kree-Skrull War, Fall of Yellowjacket and Kurt's Kang story are probably the top five. Well, Avengers Forever is one of the all time greats as well, but it wasn't in the main title.

And don't even think the words Celestial Madonna.

[dlw66]

Jun 25, 2008 22:16:26 GMT -5 scottharris said:

And don't even think the words Celestial Madonna.

Scott, I'd invite you to go to this blog for some commentary on the whole CM arc. You'll have to work from the bottom up, and I'd be curious to know your thoughts -- this is quite exhaustive.

twogirlsaguyandsomecomics.blogspot.com/

[Shiryu]

Jun 25, 2008 22:16:26 GMT -5 scottharris said:

The story that has lost it's impact for today's readers is The Kree Skrull War, because it was so influential that pretty much every epic or cosmic story in comics has followed in its footsteps; reading it now, if just doesn't have the impact because what was groundbreaking then has become the template for stuff now.

You have a good point there.
I read the Kree-Skrull War about 6 years ago on TPB, and enjoyed it very much, as I think I mentioned in another topic. But having read a number of similar stories before, it's impact on me was greatly reduced. Only when reading the all of Avengers V1 last year I fully appreciated that this was the first time something of that proportion had happened, but even now there are other cosmic stories I like a bit more than the KS War.

[spiderwasp]

I totally agree. I think the Korvac saga actually holds up better than the Kree/Skrull war. However, I love to read old things and look at them as a reflection of the times. The Thing and Human Torch in Beatles wigs may not hold up either but they're still fun to look at because of the memories evoked of the time period. I remember reading when "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" came out of DVD that it didn't hold up either. I think when people talk about things not holding up, what they are really saying is that it couldn't be released today the same way it was then. That's really true of most things. "I Love Lucy" could never be on t.v. as a new show today because Ricky always kept Lucy in her place as the wife, put her on a budget, and in one case I remember, even spanked her. Even Shakespeare, in many cases, doesn't hold up based on what works today. What I think is funny is that Bendis' stuff doesn't even hold up for the length of time it takes to get the books printed.

[Shiryu]

think when people talk about things not holding up, what they are really saying is that it couldn't be released today the same way it was then. That's really true of most things. "I Love Lucy" could never be on t.v. as a new show today because Ricky always kept Lucy in her place as the wife, put her on a budget, and in one case I remember, even spanked her.

Sad but true. Without these shows, or comics, or books, we probably wouldn't have had many great things later on, but most of them don't hold up anymore, and in many instances have been pushed aside by later products.
The KS War was probably the first of its kind, but considering the whole of Marvel production ever since, it would have an hard time to stay in my top 5 for cosmic events.

Then again, it's probably a good thing. Were we unable to surpass the products of the past, there would be no evolution (despite the risk of mis-steps)

[scottharris]

Jun 26, 2008 8:41:35 GMT -5 dlw66 said:

Jun 25, 2008 22:16:26 GMT -5 scottharris said:

And don't even think the words Celestial Madonna.

Scott, I'd invite you to go to this blog for some commentary on the whole CM arc. You'll have to work from the bottom up, and I'd be curious to know your thoughts -- this is quite exhaustive.

twogirlsaguyandsomecomics.blogspot.com/

I agree with most of the points you guys made. Like you, I think the storyline is somewhat enjoyable almost despite itself. I love Kang, I like the stuff with Swordsman, I love Vision, and the cover of #129 is an all-time classic. On the other hand, Mantis is one of the most infuriating non-characters in the history of comics, and my irritation with Englehart over her continued existence is well known. This storyline also climaxes the Englehart drive to turn Wanda into an obstreperous hag. The storyline is very uneven -- the Kang stuff at the beginning is great and then... there's the other stuff. Even some of the cool stuff, like all the backstory for Vision, is weird; there's almost two entire issues where nothing happens, it's just the Avengers watching flashbacks.

Overall, it's an important epic and has some cool parts, particularly in the first half of the storyline. IMO, however, the later Kang/Squadron Supreme epic in #141-144, 147-148, is by far Englehart's best story. As such, I think the Celestial Madonna story gets a lot more press than is warranted.

[dlw66]

Scott --

Thanks for your comments. I'd agree that CM deserves to be considered a classic arc, for the cosmic breadth of the story alone. But I also agree with you that it's really two stories under one umbrella. The first stage, with Kang and the Legion of the Unliving is really great theater; the origin stories for the Vision and Mantis are good but a notch down; and then the whole thing (for me) crashes in GS Avengers #4. It just seems like Englehart couldn't seal the deal.

I'd also like to agree with your assessment of the succeeding arc with Kang and the Squadron. What a fun story! And didn't Perez just get better with each issue?! My only dislike of that arc, and it has nothing to do with the story per se, was the "dreaded deadline doom" that forced the two-part Assassin story right into the middle of the run.

I think Mantis' legacy is found in the fact that no other author has really chosen to use her. Personally, I think the character had some merits... I go along, though, with all of her detractors who feel that she was forced upon the readership of the time and has since become increasingly minor as time has passed without another significant appearance (although she did enjoy some "new life" when Englehart was writing the Surfer book about 15 years ago).

But we digress...

I really liked the Korvac Saga (as I said before). That was a very memorable year in my adolescent comics-reading!

[Crimson Cowl]

Did Bendis provide any reasons for why he felt it 'didn't hold up'? Without any reasons it is hard to have any kind of debate on the subject other than to say that I strongly disagree.

The writing of comics these days tends to have a different focus than it did in that era, but I have always loved the characterisation of Michael, the Collector's daughter (Carina wasn't it?), and also of Starhawk/Aleta. All were poignantly handled in my view.

Moondragon's final words are also my tagline, and reflect an important part of what the Avengers should be about IMHO.

[ultron69]

Bendis is an idiot. He is, IMHO, one of the worst Avengers writers ever. I stopped buying Avengers because of him. I just finished reading the Korvac Saga, and I think it holds up very well, especially for a comic from 1977 or therabouts. Maybe Bendis feels the need to bash an Avengers classic because he knows he will never write one.

[ultron69]

Maybe whatever brain malfunction it is that makes Bendis thnk the Korvac Saga wasn't very good is the same thing that prevents him from writing good Avengers stories.

[bobc]

I can't believe that any of you actually believe Bendis read that storyline "the first time around." It is blatantly obvious to me that Bendis never read any Avengers comics before taking over and destroying this book (or maybe he read one or two over the years). If he had--the characters he's destroyed would have shown SOME resemblance to what had gone before, if for no other reason than simple osmosis. I think Bendis is pretending to be a fan for appearances. Look at Millar's work--it is glaringly obvious he was/is a huge longtime Avengers fan and Marvel fan. When he changes a character he always plays off the original and puts a new spin on him or her--he doesn't just throw everything out like garbage.

I mean come on Bendis--stop pretending.

[ultron69]

May 6, 2009 10:31:21 GMT -5 bobc said:

I can't believe that any of you actually believe Bendis read that storyline "the first time around." It is blatantly obvious to me that Bendis never read any Avengers comics before taking over and destroying this book (or maybe he read one or two over the years). If he had--the characters he's destroyed would have shown SOME resemblance to what had gone before, if for no other reason than simple osmosis. I think Bendis is pretending to be a fan for appearances. Look at Millar's work--it is glaringly obvious he was/is a huge longtime Avengers fan and Marvel fan. When he changes a character he always plays off the original and puts a new spin on him or her--he doesn't just throw everything out like garbage.

I mean come on Bendis--stop pretending.

LOL I think you are right.

[bobc]

I wish I could laugh