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Post by Doctor Doom on Jul 24, 2007 17:46:56 GMT -5
In a Word Balloon interview on newsarama, when asked about classics he doesn't particularly like:
"The Korvac Saga does NOT hold up. I remember loving it at the time but when doing my initial re-reading before Avengers Disassembled...."
He then expresses the belief that it is not in fact that good any more.
On the plus side, I'm encouraged to learn he read it at the time.
On the other hand-
*Battens down hatches and crouches in bunker*
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Post by redstatecap on Jul 24, 2007 20:26:54 GMT -5
"Get a rope."
RSC
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 24, 2007 22:28:56 GMT -5
What exactly does "hold up" mean? Yeah, I understand that we use the term around here when discussing "old stuff". But seriously, what does it mean? Do I expect 1963 Kirby to look or feel like today's top artists? Of course not... but that doesn't mean that I don't get a charge out of Stan's sappy dialogue coupled with Jack's "primitive" pictures. It's those two elements working together that create the smile that comes across after reading a Silver Age gem.
Now, to Korvac. Yeah, I came to it as a 12-year old, but even so -- I can tell you that the build-up over several months (a year??) was incredible, involving so many characters and a classic Avengers villain in the Collector. The final battle, with it's seeming end result was incredibly powerful. Combine the above with Perez's art in several of the issues in the "arc" and you have a Bronze Age story for the ages.
But then, I truly don't care what BMB's opinion is -- his Marvel ceased to be my Marvel years ago.
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Post by Van Plexico on Jul 25, 2007 20:27:24 GMT -5
What a joke.
But would we seriously expect that he actually likes the best classic Avengers stories, if he were giving us the stories he's writing now??
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Post by uberwolf on Jul 25, 2007 21:57:39 GMT -5
Korvac says BMB's writing does not hold up
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Post by bendisbites on Jul 26, 2007 12:15:18 GMT -5
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Post by von Bek on Jul 26, 2007 12:59:28 GMT -5
Thanks for the link, Bendisbites. The first issue of Dazzler sold 430k in the direct market. Dazzler. 430K. And people say New Avengers selling 100K is a huge success...
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jul 26, 2007 13:02:15 GMT -5
Thanks for the link, Bendisbites. The first issue of Dazzler sold 430k in the direct market. Dazzler. 430K. And people say New Avengers selling 100K is a huge success... Actually, New Avengers #1 sold more than 100k but I take the point. Fact remains, one can't compare across time, otherwise even all Avengers comics fail when compared to the golden age. One needs to compare about one's present time period and in this day and age 100k is a huge success level NA has never fallen below.
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Post by balok on Jul 26, 2007 13:06:55 GMT -5
For this, an exalt! That Bendis can say a thing like this confirms my view that those making Marvel books right now do not understand what I want from a comic book. Which is why I purchase so few Marvel books these days. And I expect that number to dwindle, not grow. Marvel clearly doesn't care about its legacy at all. (They have to know he holds opinions like this - if they don't, they don't know him well enough to hire him for another several years, which they just did.) And since Marvel doesn't care about me, it's very hard for me to care about it.
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Post by balok on Jul 26, 2007 13:18:49 GMT -5
Undoubtedly part of the reason fewer books sell now is that they're a lot more expensive. Hell, they were $0.35 when I broke into the hobby, and a lot of people can probably rememeber 'em cheaper than that. They've gone up about a factor of 10 over about 30 years - most books now cost around $3 or more. According to this inflation calculator, a $0.35 book in 1965 should cost about $2.20 now; a $0.50 book in 1980 should cost around $1.32 now. (Based on the consumer price index, and I hasten to point out that the CPI really doesn't apply to "luxury" items well). That spread is important because it represents the difference in buying power - how many books a kid, for example, can afford each week. If we say a kid can afford 2/3 as many books or thereabouts (based on the rough difference between $2 and $3), then we should ask why "good" circulation totals have fallen by factors of four or more. There's competition, of course, from other forms of entertainment (like video games, television, and the Internet), but video games are quite expensive themselves. It's probably fair to say that a kid who can afford those can afford comic books, too. It seems to me that there's another factor that has depressed comic book sales. I'll draw the wrath of Doom if I suggest it might be a loss of quality, but I believe that's part of it. On the other hand, we tend to think that what we grew up with is better than what we have now, as a general thing. That's going to bias me in favor of the 70's and early 80's. Just some random thoughts. Discuss or denigrate as you like...
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Post by von Bek on Jul 26, 2007 13:20:19 GMT -5
Actually, New Avengers #1 sold more than 100k but I take the point. Fact remains, one can't compare across time, otherwise even all Avengers comics fail when compared to the golden age. One needs to compare about one's present time period and in this day and age 100k is a huge success level NA has never fallen below. One can compare across time, even if only to try to understand why comics aren´t selling today what they used to sell in the Golden Age.
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Post by von Bek on Jul 26, 2007 13:41:15 GMT -5
Very good post, Balok. I think another factor that had influence in comic book sales are the crossovers. Not everyone (kid, teen or adult) has the money (or the time, or the patience) to buy and read 70 different comics to understand a story. And the loss of diversity. Each time Marvel finds a new trend almost every book goes through a redefinition to become more like the trend.
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Post by von Bek on Jul 26, 2007 13:46:32 GMT -5
TH: Do you think the industry today is the epitome of what you were trying to prevent during your EIC tenure?
JIM SHOOTER: Yes.
`Nuff said...
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Post by bendisbites on Jul 26, 2007 23:02:05 GMT -5
hey yo, Dazzler sold 430,000. A disco chick. A girl comic. Tom deFalco writing. Early days of the direct market. 430,000 copies. Marvel puts its most hyped writer on a book. A wizard top ten artist. Direct market firmly established. Cap, Wolverine, Spider Man who are well recognized all over the world, are the stars of the book. sells about half as many copies as Dazzler #1. I dunno...
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Post by uberwolf on Jul 27, 2007 8:57:19 GMT -5
I bought Dazzler #1 when it came out. I didn't buy New Avengers #1. 'nuff said.
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Hourman
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 83
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Post by Hourman on Aug 1, 2007 16:54:03 GMT -5
The thing about Kovac, as dlw66 points out, it was a year long build up (#167-177), with so many subplots (Wanda/Pietro's origin begins here; take a "throwaway" battle among YJ, Wasp and Nighthawk with the Porcupine; Henry Gyrich taking away the Avengers priority staus and so forth) that while the ultimate result of Korvac's battle may have been disappointing, what made the story flow is how so many other stories were set up/flow in and out of the main storyline -which is what made those issues so memorable.
So to dismiss the Korvac story by saying it doesn't "hold up" is to look at the story from a very limited POV. Look instead on how it flowed...
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Post by Nutcase65 on Aug 2, 2007 21:04:56 GMT -5
This guy has an ego like I just can't believe.
How could,...
Do you think he really believes the things that come out of his mouth, or is it just publicity generation?
What the?
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Post by thew40 on Aug 27, 2007 13:28:49 GMT -5
Maybe he just didn't like it.
A writer can be a critic too, ya know.
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 27, 2007 15:04:55 GMT -5
I certainly agree, W -- but I'm back to my original post in this thread: what does "hold up" mean? What are the standards by which we are going to judge this story? In a parallel example, it's very difficult to compare major-league professional athletes from era to era due to differences in equipment, the evolution of training, inconsistent playing conditions, etc. Similarly, comics have evolved through time. I am not a fan of the Golden Age, yet I am comfortable knowing that there are those who do like it and would engage me in an impassioned argument as to why such-and-such a story is the "best ever". So I think we need to know the parameters within which Bendis thinks it "doesn't hold up".
That being said, I could still say that the story is one of the best ever, even if I had to qualify it as being from a particular time period. Would the same story be done the same way by today's creators? Probably not. Maybe it would be better, maybe worse. But The Korvac Saga, as written and drawn in the late 1970's, should remain as one of the top Avengers stories for all time.
And, as a side note to the notion of different creators doing the same story, I recently read the following account: John Buscema was originally tabbed for the Conan series, but due to his involvement with the FF had to pass it to Barry Windsor-Smith. Later, I believe in Savage Sword of Conan, Roy Thomas asked John to draw that first story from the script only -- never having looked at Windsor-Smith's pencils. That would be interesting to see Big John's interpretation!
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Post by balok on Aug 27, 2007 17:33:03 GMT -5
Maybe he just didn't like it. A writer can be a critic too, ya know. Sure, but his ability to criticize (and have those criticisms accepted) comes from having the same skills himself, or from having skills that let him critically analyze the work. Bendis doesn't have the former [1] and didn't do the latter. [1] He's okay writing crime and noir stories. He's an utter failure on team superhero books, which is what he's discussing.
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Post by sharkar on Aug 27, 2007 18:34:15 GMT -5
That being said, I could still say that the story is one of the best ever, even if I had to qualify it as being from a particular time period. Would the same story be done the same way by today's creators? Probably not. Well put. I may think of Golden Age stories as hopelessly old-fashioned, stilted, corny, artistically primitive, etc...probably the same way a younger fan looks at the Silver Age stuff I revere. But as I learn more about the comics of that period, and of the period itself, I can appreciate the Golden Age stories in terms of the times they were created. This was a case of cost cutting...according to many sources including AE #15 (JB interview)and Comic Book Artist Collection vol. 1 (BSW interview): Roy and John wanted to do Conan and prepared to do so; but Martin Goodman felt John's page rate was too high- -so the project was given to BSW.
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Post by Tana Nile on Aug 27, 2007 18:52:24 GMT -5
That being said, I could still say that the story is one of the best ever, even if I had to qualify it as being from a particular time period. Would the same story be done the same way by today's creators? Probably not. Well put. I may think of Golden Age stories as hopelessly old-fashioned, stilted, corny, artistically primitive, etc...probably the same way a younger fan looks at the Silver Age stuff I revere. But as I learn more about the comics of that period, and of the period itself, I can appreciate the Golden Age stories in terms of the times they were created. Yup, I agree with both of you. I have to admit, when I go back and read some of the books I loved in the seventies (for a recent example, Cap 153 I believe), I can see that they may not have aged well, or the dialogue may be somewhat corny. So I can understand how a 20 something year old reader would probably not be able to appreciate them. I have had, in the past, a similar disdain for golden age work. But now I have some appreciation of those books, at least from the perspective of their pioneering status, if nothing else.
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Hourman
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 83
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Post by Hourman on Aug 28, 2007 14:26:35 GMT -5
I think the same can be said about some movies/music/TV shows, etc.... I have a 20-something employee who rolls his eyes at some of the classics. He can't stand films in black-and-white, for example. The other thing that bothers him is the amount of dialogue with nothing happening in an older fim... he's waiting for some sort of action to grab his short attention span I'm really not trying to be snotty, but the point is, a lot of the things that I've read from people here about what they love in the silver age -the excessive dialogue, the storylines, the art, etc (and don't get me wrong, I love all of this too) is so alien to how comics are done today, that they reject it out of ignorance. We, on the other hand, we alive to experience most of the silver age as it was happening... and in the case of the golden age, grown to appreciate the older work for what it was attempting to do (and the historical context upon which it was played out). Eventually, the younger fans begin to move back into the silver age if they care enough about the characters to learn about their past. With teams like the Avengers and the Legion of Superheroes, there is so much history that eventually people want to go back just to see who these people are or read more stories where these heroes appear and then learn to appreciate the silver age as we do.
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Post by thew40 on Aug 28, 2007 22:09:38 GMT -5
I think the same can be said about some movies/music/TV shows, etc.... I have a 20-something employee who rolls his eyes at some of the classics. He can't stand films in black-and-white, for example. The other thing that bothers him is the amount of dialogue with nothing happening in an older fim... he's waiting for some sort of action to grab his short attention span I'm really not trying to be snotty, but the point is, a lot of the things that I've read from people here about what they love in the silver age -the excessive dialogue, the storylines, the art, etc (and don't get me wrong, I love all of this too) is so alien to how comics are done today, that they reject it out of ignorance. We, on the other hand, we alive to experience most of the silver age as it was happening... and in the case of the golden age, grown to appreciate the older work for what it was attempting to do (and the historical context upon which it was played out). Eventually, the younger fans begin to move back into the silver age if they care enough about the characters to learn about their past. With teams like the Avengers and the Legion of Superheroes, there is so much history that eventually people want to go back just to see who these people are or read more stories where these heroes appear and then learn to appreciate the silver age as we do. Well said, my friend! Whenever I try and get someone into comics these days, I'm more likely to hand them a copy of "Ultimate Spider-Man" or something from the past five years. If they're interesting in the history of the team/character, then I'll point them to Essential line. ~W~
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Post by von Bek on Aug 31, 2007 13:20:03 GMT -5
Just read 'Harbinger - The Origin of Harada' and Shooter is still a great writer. A short story that made me want to read the Harbinger series. As for Bendis...
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Post by The Night Phantom on Sept 5, 2007 22:00:08 GMT -5
I think the same can be said about some movies/music/TV shows, etc.... I have a 20-something employee who rolls his eyes at some of the classics. He can't stand films in black-and-white, for example. The other thing that bothers him is the amount of dialogue with nothing happening in an older fim... he's waiting for some sort of action to grab his short attention span I think it’s great that there is readily available entertainment for persons with severe mental handicaps; I’m a big believer in equity of opportunity. But I feel that such opportunity need not and must not come at the expense of dwindling opportunity for persons without those handicaps.
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Hourman
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 83
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Post by Hourman on Sept 6, 2007 13:58:41 GMT -5
I think the same can be said about some movies/music/TV shows, etc.... I have a 20-something employee who rolls his eyes at some of the classics. He can't stand films in black-and-white, for example. The other thing that bothers him is the amount of dialogue with nothing happening in an older fim... he's waiting for some sort of action to grab his short attention span I think it’s great that there is readily available entertainment for persons with severe mental handicaps; I’m a big believer in equity of opportunity. But I feel that such opportunity need not and must not come at the expense of dwindling opportunity for persons without those handicaps. ***grabs roll of paper towels to wipe the computer screen clean after a spit take*** You sound like you've been listening to my comments during upcoming movie/TV show trailers...
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Post by sharkar on Dec 17, 2007 0:06:35 GMT -5
In a Word Balloon interview on newsarama, when asked about classics he doesn't particularly like: "The Korvac Saga does NOT hold up... He then expresses the belief that it is not in fact that good any more. He may have since reconsidered; at least, he names the Korvac Saga as containing one of the Avengers' greatest battles, according to this: www.marvel.com/news/comicstories.2073.TGIF%3A_Earth%27s_Mightiest_Battles
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Post by goldenfist on Jun 23, 2008 22:20:10 GMT -5
Once again another story I have to read.
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Jun 25, 2008 15:01:01 GMT -5
No you don't.
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