know the classics 54 & 55

[Nutcase65]

Okay, here we go.

The Avengers square off with the Masters of Evil 2nd edition.

I think that this, for me, was where the rivalry between our home team and the MOE really takes off. The fights in both issues are very well laid out.

You also have the development of one of my more liked characters the Black Knight. Also this is the first time ou really start seeing some development of Jarvis' character. As we all know by the end of the first volume Jarvis might as well have Avengers status.

This issue also brings one of the biggest Avengers enemies to the forefront. Ultron 5. )Yayyy Ultron.

So in these two issues we see a lot of character and continual history development. Well worth a second look.

[Shiryu]

These are the issues were Jarvis is first introduced, right ? They are worthy of the word "classic" just for that !

[Bored Yesterday]

I had always thought that Jarvis was there all along -- but is it really true he was first introduced with this traitor storyline? Dang -- I have to pay more attention to what I'm reading. I can't believe it -- the introduction of Jarvis was a ret-con?

In any case, this was a great story. This was the Avengers at their lowest. 4 members, and none of them too powerful. Who was it again? I can picture the cover of issue 55 to help my memory: Black Panther, Big Pym, Hawkeye,... and Wasp? Okay! I love this group, even if they needed the help of the Black Knight to get out of their scrape.

And I LOVED the introdution of Ultron in issue 55. I find it interesting that for all his later boasts about the inferiority of humanity, he relied on human beings for his plan. Maybe it had something to do with the fact that he hadn't gotten his adamantium body yet, and so thought of the human pawns as body armor of a type.

I'm also a sucker for any storyline that calls for villains to penetrate the Mansion. You know, there should be consequences for having a publically known headquarters. There are reasons that DC heroes tend to prefer secret hideouts.

[Nutcase65]

I thought he had appeared toward the beginning, but I was just remembering Rick Jones skulking around HQ.

[dlw66]

Since Jarvis is "Tony Stark's butler", could he have appeared in an issue of Tales of Suspense?

EDIT: In fact, his 1st appearance was in T of S #59, and he was created by Stan Lee and Don Heck. Not sure if these two issues are his first appearance in this title.

[Nutcase65]

but to go back to the statement about Jarvis. It does appear to be his first appearance where his character is developed in any way. That in itself does make this 2 parter significant. Jarvis has been a constant through Avengers history.
He's proved he can take a beating too.

[Bored Yesterday]

Correct! He really has become a beloved member of the team over the years, and these issues are the first time he's developed -- but he's developed as a brainwashed traitor. That's so strange.

I think, based on what's been done with Jarvis since these 2 books were first published, these books might actually read better nowadays than they did when first published.

[Nutcase65]

now that they have established him more firmly, as I read the latter issues when he shows up you see more personality.

[dlw66]

Nutcase, you're just a bit ahead of me in re-reading these classics. Last night I read #'s 53-54 from the Essentials. After reading from the DVD-ROM from #16-50, I switched to the Essentials because I've been leaving my laptop at school. What a contrast to go from the original color with all the ads, etc. to the B&W version. Plain Jane!!!!! But, since it's Big John Buscema, it still looks better than 90% of what's out there (then and now).

Anyway, to discuss #54:

Well done issue. If I have one beef with it, it's Hank's attitude toward Hawk and the Panther. Later writers, even after the Yellowjacket persona emanated from Hank, downplayed this rough-around-the-edges Hank that we've seen since shortly after he returned to the team in #28. It took him awhile to warm to the team, and he was obviously preoccupied with the drastic fluctuations in his powers. However, Roy certainly doesn't play him with a personality that might befit "one of the world's foremost biochemists". I don't think he needs to be nerdy, mind you -- but a little sophistication would be nice!

Buscema draws this issue at his comic-opera best. I wish more artists understood his grandiose dynamics. Thomas' story is strong, with the new Masters attacking the Avengers individually in a manner that gives them not only the element of surprise, but a powers advantage too. The choices for the new Masters of Evil, although mostly B-listers, form a scary lot when together. As mentioned above, this may be Jarvis' first appearance by name in this book. I will try to look that up. It seems odd to hear Jarvis discussing his Brooklyn roots, as I always "heard" him with a British accent. Ultron's first cameo is good from the standpoint of history -- we see how his structure will evolve through the years and with different artists. Nice last page cliffhanger -- I'm looking forward to "freshening up" on #55!!

[Nutcase65]

It seems like they were really playing up the machismo in most of these early issues. I don't think it's just Hank, you see Hawk getting all puffy chested several times.

Another thing I really like about these issues is the role of the Black Panther. He is a strong fighter and they do a really good job writing him.

[Bored Yesterday]

It's not just machismo -- it's like Hank and Clint are really grouchy all the time. They just snipe at each other every chance they get and it takes nothing to provoke a fight. Reading the way they go on gets a little tedious sometimes, and I've been known to skim through it. It has nothing actually to do with the story anyway.

Yeah, Black Panther was good here. I think he always seemed interesting in the Avengers, but that was before I had actually read many issues that feature him. Apart from these early appearances, he seems to work better as a loner, for me anyway.

[dlw66]

Just finished #55-56 in the Essentials. Again, great Buscema art, solid Thomas pacing. The Ultron/Jarvis/Crimson Cowl deal is a tad unbelievable, but hey -- they're funny books. Again, I liked the B-listers who made up this version of the Masters, and the Black Knight was used just enough to whet our appetites for his next appearance. Ultron's promise to kill the Avengers is nice foreshadowing to the Vision saga which comes next in #57-60.

Despite a largely depowered team with none of the Big Three anywhere in sight, this two-parter nonetheless entertained with all-out action, some snappy Hawkeye banter, just enough of the Wasp as a hostage and Hank under that duress, etc.

By the way, for those of you reading and enjoying/not enjoying the currently-finishing EMH II series, these issues should be a must-read to see how Roy set up Hank's emotional wreckage that led to the introduction of Yellowjacket. To be honest -- there really isn't any set-up! I'm not sure, just month's prior, there is any real foreshadowing to the coming crisis!

See elsewhere for my glowing opinion of #56.

[sharkar]

dlw66 said:

Since Jarvis is "Tony Stark's butler", could he have appeared in an issue of Tales of Suspense?

EDIT: In fact, his 1st appearance was in T of S #59, and he was created by Stan Lee and Don Heck. Not sure if these two issues are his first appearance in this title.

In the Avengers book, his first actual appearance is a few issues prior to #54/#55- - in #48... he's about to leave Avengers Mansion when he answers a distress call from Pietro (P and Wanda have been captured by Magneto).

But the first Jarvis reference in the Avengers book was back in #38, when Cap is on monitor duty and thinks "I'll ask Jarvis, the butler, to make me a ham sandwich" or something of the sort (how's that for stunningly obvious 1960s exposition? ) Also, the first Avengers Annual (published between issues #44 and #45) contains a diagram of Avengers Mansion that contains a blurb indicating Jarvis's quarters. So Jarvis was referred to before his Avengers debut in #48.

Of course, as everyone here is saying, #54 and #55 are the first times Jarvis was prominently featured (in the Avengers). He has since become an Avengers fixture. I especially loved #280, when he's recovering from the MOE's brutal attack and is reminiscing. Beautiful characterization and a poignant issue.

edit: added italics...I like 'em!

[Commander Benson]

sharkar said:

dlw66 said:

Since Jarvis is "Tony Stark's butler", could he have appeared in an issue of Tales of Suspense?

EDIT: In fact, his 1st appearance was in T of S #59, and he was created by Stan Lee and Don Heck. Not sure if these two issues are his first appearance in this title.

In the Avengers book, his first actual appearance is a few issues prior to #54/#55- - in #48... he's about to leave Avengers Mansion when he answers a distress call from Pietro (P and Wanda have been captured by Magneto).

But the first Jarvis reference in the Avengers book was back in #38, when Cap is on monitor duty and thinks "I'll ask Jarvis, the butler, to make me a ham sandwich" or something of the sort (how's that for stunningly obvious 1960s exposition? ) Also, the first Avengers Annual (published between issues #44 and #45) contains a diagram of Avengers Mansion that contains a blurb indicating Jarvis's quarters. So Jarvis was referred to before his Avengers debut in #48.

I think I can straighten this all out.

As dlw66 noted, Jarvis debuted in the Captain America story in Tales of Suspense # 59 (Nov., 1964). In fact, this was the tale that kicked off Cap's series in that title.

I'm a little surprised that you Avengerophiles did not recall that Jarvis' next appearance--and his first in the Avengers title--came in the landmark story "The Old Order Changeth", from The Avengers # 16 (May, 1965). As you will recall, the first new member recruited was Hawkeye, who breaks into the Avengers Mansion in order to join the group. In the sequence on pages 7 and 8, the Avengers are alarmed by a sudden smokescreen appearing in their meeting room. They follow the plume to the foyer, where they find Jarvis bound and gagged, and Hawkeye waiting for them.

To demonstrate both his archery skill and his honesty, Hawkeye stands Jarvis upright, then fires three arrows at the butler, severing his gag and the bindings around his wrists and knees simultaneously.

Jarvis pops up next in a one-panel cameo in "When the Commissar Commands", from The Avengers # 18 (Jul., 1965).

The loyal butler's next appearance crosses over two titles and marks the kind of continuity that so engaged Marvel fans of the day.

"In Our Midst, an Immortal", from The Avengers # 38 (Mar., 1967), carries the scene to which sharkar referred: on page 7, panel 4, while the other Avengers head out to grab a few burgers, Captain America remains at the mansion to stand watch until they return. He decides to have Jarvis bring him a ham-and-cheese sandwich.

However, the reader has to switch to Tales of Suspense # 88 (Apr., 1967) to actually see Jarvis bring Cap that sandwich. The scene on the splash page of "If Bucky Lives . . . " takes place right after Captain America asked the butler to bring him the sandwich. Suddenly, Cap receives an emergency call over the automatic video-monitor from . . . Bucky Barnes. Bucky has just enough time to give his location before the transmission is abruptly terminated.

The Star-Spangled Avenger dashes off just as Jarvis arrives with his sandwich. He tells the butler that he has to leave immediately, but doesn't explain why. (I don't think it requires a spoiler warning to reveal that the emergency call from "Bucky" was actually the bait for a trap laid for Cap by the Red Skull in an arc that continued through Tales of Suspense # 91.)

Now we switch back to page 8 of The Avengers # 38. The other Avengers return from dinner and discover Cap is gone. Jarvis--who does appear "on camera" in this issue--informs the heroes that Cap received a radio message and took off suddenly, without explanation.

Besides the reference to Jarvis' quarters in the diagram of the Avengers Mansion which appeared in Avengers Annual # 1 (Sep., 1967)--which sharkar mentioned--the butler also appears in the main story. He appears on page 8, panel 2, to admit Iron Man and informs him that the other members have responded to the Golden Avenger's emergency signal. This is Jarvis' next appearance after the Avengers # 38/Tales of Suspense # 88 cross-over.

And that brings us to The Avengers # 48 (Jan., 1968) that sharkar mentioned. That was Jarvis' next appearance.

Hope this helps.

[sharkar]

commanderbenson said:

I'm a little surprised that you Avengerophiles did not recall that Jarvis' next appearance--and his first in the Avengers title--came in the landmark story "The Old Order Changeth", from The Avengers # 16 (May, 1965). As you will recall, the first new member recruited was Hawkeye, who breaks into the Avengers Mansion in order to join the group. In the sequence on pages 7 and 8, the Avengers are alarmed by a sudden smokescreen appearing in their meeting room. They follow the plume to the foyer, where they find Jarvis bound and gagged, and Hawkeye waiting for them.

Actually, at some point I realized afterwards I had omitted the unnamed Jarvis appearance (d'oh!) from my post, but I did not want to confuse anyone by reviving the old thread...so I included a reference in a more recent thread (Avengers ROM).

sharkar said:

I know you're referring to the impending Masters of Evil arc (in which Jarvis plays a prominent role, for the first time), but Jarvis' first appearance was probably in #16 (though he's unnamed as the butler Hawkeye toys with, it's him) and he also appears in #48.

Obviously, I was refererring to Jarvis' Avengers appearances.


You seem to be having a lot of fun digging through our old threads!

[Commander Benson]

sharkar said:

commanderbenson said:

I'm a little surprised that you Avengerophiles did not recall that Jarvis' next appearance--and his first in the Avengers title--came in the landmark story "The Old Order Changeth", from The Avengers # 16 (May, 1965). As you will recall, the first new member recruited was Hawkeye, who breaks into the Avengers Mansion in order to join the group. In the sequence on pages 7 and 8, the Avengers are alarmed by a sudden smokescreen appearing in their meeting room. They follow the plume to the foyer, where they find Jarvis bound and gagged, and Hawkeye waiting for them.

Actually, at some point I realized afterwards I had omitted the unnamed Jarvis appearance (d'oh!) from my post, but I did not want to confuse anyone by reviving the old thread...so I included a reference in a more recent thread (Avengers ROM).

sharkar said:

I know you're referring to the impending Masters of Evil arc (in which Jarvis plays a prominent role, for the first time), but Jarvis' first appearance was probably in #16 (though he's unnamed as the butler Hawkeye toys with, it's him) and he also appears in #48.

Obviously, I was refererring to Jarvis' Avengers appearances.


You seem to be having a lot of fun digging through our old threads!

Just going through them to see where I can be helpful. And, yeah, it is kind of fun to see what topics have generated good conversation before.

However, as your later post, unseen by me, just demonstrated, there is a hazard in bringing up old topics, again: that I will address something which has already been dealt with. If I had had the corporate knowledge that the rest of you do, then I would have known that you had already brought up the subject of Jarvis' part in Hawkeye's admission to the Avengers.

My apologies for stepping on your toes on this one.

[sharkar]

Thanks for filling in the blanks about Jarvis' early appearances. Interesting (IMO) that he betrayed the Avengers when he was little more than a cipher--wonder what the impact would have been had this story occurred later on (and assuming he would have had a more prominent role in the series)?

Anyway, it's a good thing the Avengers took Dane Whitman's advice (at the end of #55) and gave Jarvis another chance--he's since developed into a Marvel mainstay.

I love this cover, esp. Cap's expression!

[Commander Benson]

sharkar said:

Interesting (IMO) that he betrayed the Avengers when he was little more than a cipher--wonder what the impact would have been had this story occurred later on (and assuming he would have had a more prominent role in the series)?

I can only surmise, of course, but I think that the initial reaction from the fans would have been of even greater surprise than what it was.

But there also would have been a problem. If the Jarvis at that time had been the more strongly developed character he became, I think that the readership would have had a much tougher time accepting the notion that the loyal butler would betray the Avengers. Even to procure the funds to care for his ill mother. (Which is, undoubtedly, why a later writer went back and insisted that Jarvis' betrayal was actually the result of being hypnotised by Ultron.)

It would have been anathema to the Jarvis we know now to betray the Avengers for any reason. And, yes, he also would have resisted something more logical, like asking Tony Stark for financial help.

But if we assume that Jarvis had no other resources to raise the cash to provide for his mother, and the only choices he had were to (1) betray the Avengers for money; or (2) ask Tony Stark for it . . . then as unthinkable as it would be to him, Jarvis would've asked Stark for help--because betraying the Avengers would have been even more unthinkable.

[sharkar]

Yes, if Jarvis had been more established at the time of the story, the details would have had to have been changed; and the story would have had a different impact on both the characters and the readers (and hopefully Jarvis would have fared better than poor Snapper, who was an established character at the time of his betrayal...as we have also recently discussed).

[Shiryu]

I too agree. Stern's later retcon would have made sense even if Jarvis was already an established character, but the original version would have been hard to swallow.
It's funny that the history (as we know it) of such a faithful character started with a betrayal of all things.

PS, wow, it's quite in here today!

[sharkar]

Hi, Shiryu!

Yes, it's been awfully quiet around here lately...