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Post by von Bek on Jan 22, 2007 12:57:06 GMT -5
Gotta have to disagree with you here, Dlw. EMH II was a slap in the face of all who (like myself) are Pym fans and liked the original story in 59-60. Joe Casey, like many comic writers today (someone whose initials are BMB included) thinks he´s way smarter than Roy Thomas, but... well, he isn´t. The original storys charm and wit is destroyed to make room for doom and gloom. There´s now a corpse in the truck belonging to someone who the thugs at the beginning of the story killed and YJ used one of them as a human shield, so now he´s a killer too. Gore and ultra violence that wasn´t present in the original introduced so to make it more 'realistic'. The very idea that the Avengers knew from the start that YJ was Pym is asinine, and miss so bad the whole point of Thomas´ story that it´s painfull to read, turning Hank into some kind of joke. Pseudo psychology shows its ugly head in the form of the Shield 'expert' and the Wasp becomes a whiny annoying character... I don´t know what Marvel nowadays has against the Avengers, but unhappy to destroy the current book they´re now trying to destroy the good old stories too, so we wouldn´t have even those to reread...
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 22, 2007 13:16:10 GMT -5
I appreciate your thoughts, and even without having the book in front of me I know some of the scenes to which you register complaints.
My point of view concerns updating of the story without destroying it. While I abhor unnecessary violence by our heroes (case in point -- in the DD movie when DD thrust that guy onto the subway tracks, or in Batman Returns when he torched a bad guy with the Batmobile rockets), I also understand that the kids I teach in high school are exposed constantly through film and tv to just such things. Hence, I feel Joe Casey was writing within the context of today's pop culture.
In regard to the team knowing immediately that Pym was Yellowjacket... Come on, Vonbek, do you seriously think Clark Kent gets away for 70 years with eyeglasses as a disguise?? Don't you think the body frame, voice, etc. would be a dead giveaway for Hawkeye, Jan... folks who have spent so much time together? I didn't care for all of the "updates" that were used in EMH I, but I thought the SHIELD technology that was used to scan Pym's head and face was very current -- that technology has certainly been in the news in the US regarding decreased civil rights since 9/11.
I'll reiterate -- I felt it was an able homage to the original, and in some ways improved upon it. I do sympathize with your take on the violence, and I, in hindsight, fully support that viewpoint. But I have to say some of the other issues were improvements.
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Post by von Bek on Jan 22, 2007 13:40:24 GMT -5
Regarding the violence level, well, I think I´m just too old for that kind of stuff (I´m 31). If I were a teenager maybe an ultra violent YJ against ultra violent mobsters would have sounded cool, but I found it rather pathetic, it was a revision of the original storys prologue that made it silly. That sort of stuff wouldn´t bother me in Sin City, but as a retelling of an great Avengers issue it just felt too juvenile and immature of the writer. As for YJ "secret identity" if (and that´s a big IF) it needed an update, Casey could easily have made Pym have technologicals counter measures against the Shields scanning (we´re talking about a scientific genius here) and for voice and all, even in real life people with MPD can develop an entirely new personae, with different body language and voice, so Casey need to do a better research. And worse, it changes the original idea, that was that only the Wasp knew who YJ was. Trying to make the story more 'realistic', Casey missed the whole point, now that story (issue 59) became meaningless...
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 22, 2007 15:17:38 GMT -5
You, my good man, are certainly not too old for the violence issue. I'm 40, and have a huge issue with the prevalence of violence in American society and pop culture. I hear you on that one.
But, and maybe I'm reading too much into Joe Casey's mind on this one -- Yellowjacket shows up, obviously no shrinking powers at his disposal, and attempts to take these clowns down. The way both Buscema and the new artist (sorry, his name escapes me at the present) depict the scene, YJ fights with the skill and tenacity of a Batman or a Daredevil -- not a display we are used to from our old buddy Hank. So, perhaps when the one hood leveled a gun at him, it was self-preservation, instinct, whatever to grab the nearest shield. That it happened to be one of the other hoods is a product of modern society; in 1968 or whatever I don't think it would have been shown that way. So I guess that's how I'd rationalize that particular scene.
As far as how Jan was depicted in the issue in question, I'll agree that she was a little over the top. However, Casey had foreshadowed her emotions pretty well in the previous few issues concerning Hank's recently-returned growth powers (Avengers #51) and his recent ascension to the chairmanship. So, too, I don't think Jan was totally out-of-character. Annoying maybe, but not out-of-character.
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Post by Tana Nile on Feb 15, 2007 18:03:07 GMT -5
Just finished issue 6, and I have to say, I am really not enjoying this special, up-close seat for Hank's mental disintegration. As much as the original Avengers issues made little sense, this is in some ways worse. This time around, everyone knows YJ is Hank, but they are so worried about his mental stability that they go along with this bizarre charade?! The reasons given just don't hold up.
I enjoyed the first EMH series a great deal but wish perhaps Casey had chosen another period of Avengers history to examine than this one. I don't find it all that interesting and the contrivances of this story are just too much.
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Post by Black Knight on Feb 16, 2007 14:33:05 GMT -5
I have to go in a totally different direction, and say, I have really been enjoying this more indepth look at what happened to Hank Pym, and just how bad it got when he became YJ.
The only problem I have is the fight scene with the thugs, that was way to over the top.
I just wanted respond to the idea that the Avengers knew it was YJ from the start, if you follow the panels you will see that the computer identifyied him as the correct body mass and shape, to be Henry Pym.
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 16, 2007 21:49:38 GMT -5
Bought it, read it.
I wouldn't defend issue #6 to the extent that I stood up for Casey on #5 (see above). However, I'm withholding my final judgement until this is over. tananile, I get where you're coming from -- this is painful. But I think what Joe Casey is attempting to do is bring us to the point where the stuff Hank Pym will do later (the Ant-Man/Bride of Ultron story, the court martial and divorce, etc.) has a firm foundation. I'd again encourage any and all to get ahold of the original issues -- around #45-60 -- and read how Roy, Big John, and Tom Palmer originally told the tale. As mentioned, there was a degree of unbelievability to those issues -- the reaction of all the players, that YJ just showed up and all of this went down... Casey puts a face on Hank's illness, giving us the behind-the-scenes stuff that Roy did not. Should we have been left to our imaginations? Maybe, but I'll confess that the first time or two I read these stories (prior to this EMH II mini-series), I was left flat by the "how can these people not recognize Hank's voice, the shape of his chin...??" While EMH II #6 definitely reached over-the-top scripting, I still think it makes more sense than did the original presentation.
We'll see where this ends up, after Hank busts out of the YJ suit to save Jan from that python next issue.
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Post by sharkar on Feb 16, 2007 23:16:55 GMT -5
I'll confess that the first time or two I read these stories (prior to this EMH II mini-series), I was left flat by the "how can these people not recognize Hank's voice, the shape of his chin...??" Reading everyone's posts here is bringing back memories of when I first read #59-#60. When I read the original issues decades ago, I also wondered why the Panther at least didn't "sense" that YJ was Hank; didn't the Panther have "enhanced senses", couldn't he identify someone by their scent (like Wolverine)? As for the reader guessing the identity, in the panels where YJ was kissing Jan (in #59), there were close-ups of his eyes, and I thought it was pretty obvious YJ was Hank (even though in most issues, Hank's baby blues were obscured by his Goliath goggles). I mean, why else would John B draw close-ups like that? After the big reveal in #60, Stan offered no-prizes to anyone who list the clues that YJ was Hank; apparently a lot of readers could and wrote in (including me!). IIRC, they then ended up giving the no-prize to just the first person whose letter they'd received (so I did not win a no-prize . ) And a minor clarification: Tom Palmer wasn't the inker on the original story. At that time, Buscema was usually being inked by George Klein (and they were a great team), though #60 was inked by "Mickey De Meo"...better known as Mike Esposito. Palmer's first issue of the Avengers wasn't until over a year later, when he inked Buscema's pencils in #74. I'll reserve my judgment about EMH2 for when I actually read it (which probably won't be until the hardcover comes out in June), but from all the posts here, it sounds like an interesting take on the original. I will note the following as a SPOILER, even though it's over 30 years old... I found it hilarious that Hank had on his complete Goliath uniform underneath his YJ uniform. Boy, it's like having on two pairs of long underwear!
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 17, 2007 9:00:31 GMT -5
And not just his uniform, but if I recall the cowl was pushed back, so that wouldn't have been all bunched-up on the back of his neck?
I stand corrected on Palmer as original inker. And yes, George Klein did a bang-up job over John's pencils in those days. I made the assumption that since Palmer was inking this story, he'd also inked the original.
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 14, 2007 22:15:07 GMT -5
Just finished reading EMH II #7.
Overall a good, not great, book. The conclusion of the wedding/Circus of Crime was kind of a letdown -- Casey didn't add anything to what we had already seen. The follow-up scene with Hank and Jan being grilled by Nick Fury was OK -- but again, didn't really serve to move the story along that much. The whole Hank thing just left me kind of flat; unlike some of my fellows here, I had found Casey's take to be very interesting, even embellishing the original presentation. I don't feel as strongly about that now.
The main part of this issue dealt with the Black Panther, and was a much better part of the read. T'Challa's side story as a NY public school teacher has been interesting, and reached a crescendo in this issue. A good BP story, especially given the way I perceive him to be written today. This was a breath of fresh air.
The next issue is the conclusion. So far I'd rate this as better than EMH I, but I am really wanting to see how Casey will tie up the loose ends. This mini-series has the potential to go down as very good, or just on the down side of "good". It has been nostalgiac, and at times fresh. We'll see what sense I'm left with after the last issue passes under my eyeballs.
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Post by dlw66 on May 12, 2007 8:56:42 GMT -5
Last night I polished off the EMH II mini-series. What a bummer. A story that I thought was very good through the 5th issue spiraled down to pointless by the end. Not sure if deadlines were an issue or if the creative team had other obligations late in the game, but the story overall just fell apart -- I say that from the perspective that they didn't make me care anymore by the end. Issue #8 was for the most part a waste of paper -- senseless dialogue between the Super-Adaptoid and the Vision, a throwaway scene with the Panther and one of his now-incarcerated students, and an emotionless last scene involving the entire team and "the light still flickers" talk. In addition, I really didn't care for Casey's use of dialogue in the street scenes. If you think Bendis is bad, check out the two or three crowd shots in this book. The last time I walked down a crowded Chicago street, I didn't hear anyone speaking this way... Perhaps it's different in Manhattan . Lastly, one of my personal drawbacks for this series and its predecessor is the "updating" of the stories -- moving them into more-recent times as opposed to the real time in which they first saw print. In this last issue, I didn't care for the references to the Rwandan genocide. That really threw me for a chronal loop... I'm sure others will like it because it makes these older stories now part of "their lifetime"; I'd prefer to keep it in "my lifetime". So, if you haven't read this, I can't now say that you've really missed anything great. Hang onto the money in your tpb budget and just borrow these from a friend.
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Post by Tana Nile on May 12, 2007 19:28:40 GMT -5
I agree that it was disappointing Doug. I really wish they had looked at another point in the team's history, as I didn't feel the couple of issues they focused on were really that interesting. Hopefully if there is a third entry in the series we'll get something a bit more exciting.
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Post by sharkar on May 15, 2007 20:15:41 GMT -5
Despite some of the less than stellar reviews I'm reading here, I'll be buying the hardcover collection when it comes out (I read it's been bumped to August instead of June). This is my my favorite Avengers era, probably because it's when I first started reading the book, so I like anything that involves that run of issues.
I'm curious to see if Wanda and Pietro are mentioned (don't tell me). In the original issues, after they left in #53, they were never mentioned by the Avengers--Cap, Jan, Hank and Clint--with whom they'd worked alongside for about couple of years. There were no mentions of them in #54 and after. I always found that a glaring inconsistency, especially since Roy was--or seemed to be-- such a fan of relationships and continuity and history.
From #54 through their return in #75, the only times we saw them were in Avengers Special #2 (alternate timeline versions), the pin-up in that same Special, and in #58, shown as part of Thor's recounting of all the Avengers up until that time. I know they appeared in a Spider-Man issue and some X-Men issues (the Sentinel issues), but geez, I guess for the Avengers, out of sight, out of mind.
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