The legacy of Liefeld

[dlw66]

ONSLAUGHT REBORN #2

Written by Jeph Loeb, pencils and cover by Rob Liefeld, variant cover by Joe Madureira.

The battle for the fate of the Marvel Universe has begun! The Fantastic Four are joined by Hulk, Thor, Captain America, and the Avengers -- all going head-to-head against the most dangerous creature ever created: Onslaught! All-out action as only Jeph Loeb and Rob Liefeld can deliver!

32 pages, $2.99, in stores on Dec. 13.

[Bored Yesterday]

Looks like his art has improved, at least. But Thor's thigh looks a little bit stretched.

[dlw66]

His facial expressions are what gets me (always looks like his figures are in the fullest throes of constipation), as well as the head/body proportions. And, how about him dredging up the Thor costume from Heroes Reborn?? At least Cap has a "A" on his mask and not that iron eagle thingie...

[steed]

Hey Doug, it's not constipation. It's because their pants are too tight in the crotch. Liefielf always draws extra lines to point this out.

[dlw66]

The best inker in the world couldn't clean up his mess.

You know, when you think about that whole Image movement that dominated the 90's, how many of those guys could really draw? I suppose people have their tastes, but of the whole slew of them, McFarlane was the only one I liked. Larsen, Liefeld -- terrible. Silvestri was tolerable, but very simple. Tended to draw faces flat when trying to achieve certain angles. Portacio was tolerable as well. Valentino? Can't really remember that he stood out positively or negatively.

Best that it is a bygone era. Or is it?

[steed]

Nope, it's still around. Look at the new issue of JLA #1. The whole thing looks like a tribute to the Image days.

[dlw66]

Took one look at the cover and passed on it.

I forgot to mention Jim Lee above. He can be outstanding, or he can be marginal. For the most part I enjoy his work. He and McFarlane were (are) far more talented than their partners.

[bobc]

Poor Rob Liefield. There are entire websites devoted to bashing him!! In fact, my last art department at a videogame company used to devote hours to bashing him--I was always getting links sent to me that were steeped in evil, bashing poor Robbie! My GOD you'd think he'd try to get better or refine his style, for no other reason than to avoid more humiliation. I've seen pics of Rob these days were he looks about 50, the poor thing. He still has that early 90's wedge hairstyle, which is a fashion violation of enormous proportions which, if there's any justice in this world, should result in a public flogging at the very least.

[bobc]

I hate the tiny, beak-like noses Rob puts on everyone. Look at Thor here--his nose looks like a can opener!

[dlw66]

Who needs the hammer to fly when you got wings on your hat like those?!?

[Shiryu]

I had heard about this guy but never saw anything done by him, and I don't really like this drawing (except Hulk and the Thing maybe).
That being said, McFarlane is the reason I dropped Spider-Man for years, I deeply hated his style and the way he modified the characters.
Jim Lee instead I like, especially on "Hush"

[dlw66]

I liked McFarlane's intricate art on Spidey, and his "cartoony" cast of characters to me hearkened back to the Ditko days. I mainly enjoy pretty straightforward superhero art, but McFarlane's style was a nice departure. However, when Erik Larsen tried to follow him up -- whoo boy! Was he bad!!

[thew40]

Back in "the day," when I was a mere lad of 13, "Onslaught" was the biggest thing of my summer '96. I wasn't too keen on "Heroes Reborn," but I'm absolutely sold on seeing Onslaught again.

This project has a very nostalgic, retro feel for me.

~W~

[redstatecap]

The saddest thing is that in ten years his art has improved only marginally at best.
I don't have anything personal against the man, but if I were on the butt end of as many jokes as Liefield has been, after ten years my art would be freaking superb because I would not rest until I proved people wrong. That is, if Liefield had a thimble-full of talent...
Anyone else notice the perspective error where Reed's Arm passes under Cap's shield but is still in the immediate foreground? Either Reed's hand is 6 feet across or Cap is 6 inches tall.

RS

[redstatecap]

thew40 said:

Back in "the day," when I was a mere lad of 13, "Onslaught" was the biggest thing of my summer '96. I wasn't too keen on "Heroes Reborn," but I'm absolutely sold on seeing Onslaught again.
This project has a very nostalgic, retro feel for me.
~W~

*sigh* It's not your fault, really.
It's just unfortunate that I can wax nostalgic for "The Korvac Saga," while you wax nostalgic for "Onslaught."

RSC

[dlw66]

Echoed, RSC. My focal points are The Celestial Madonna in Avengers, the original clone saga in Amazing Spider-Man, and the Torch/Quicksilver battle in FF #158. I'm glad I have those memories, and I really envy those whose memories stretch back to the first Surfer/Galactus story, or Adams run on X-Men or Avengers. Those were truly "the days".

[steed]

I liked the Silver Surfer/ Galactus story but I remember sitting in study hall in 7th grade reading the three issue Kang/Grandmaster Avengers story and thinking life didn't get much better than this until they came out with the Kree/Skrull War. Back in the days when all the Avengers were heroes who watched each others backs.

[thew40]

redstatecap said:

*sigh* It's not your fault, really.
It's just unfortunate that I can wax nostalgic for "The Korvac Saga," while you wax nostalgic for "Onslaught."

RSC

Whabuhuh?

Why is that unfortunate?

"Onslaught" may not have been as good as, say, "Secret Wars" or a lot of the things you guys may have mentioned . . . but I won't go so far as to say it was unfortunate that I had read it. I loved "Onslaught."

I remember reading the very beginning of the saga - Cable # 34, Avengers # 400, X-Men # 53, Uncanny X-Men # 334, X-Men # 54, X-Men: Onslaught, Uncanny X-Men # 335 - right after school got out for the summer. I remember laying in bed, reading the comics and just being wowed out of my mind. I distinctly remember just how cool it was.

Granted, now that I'm older and my tastes have refined, I'm able to look at that story and think cynically about how silly an Xavier/Magneto combination creature attacking New York City is. But to a nerdy 13 year old? Man, that was the coolest thing in the world.

Even to this day, I still can't help but at least get a little excited about seeing that big, two-page spread with all those Sentinels in NYC. Nor can I tell you that I hate the story, as it left that big of an impression on me.

So . . . yes, while I didn't have classic stories like "The Kree/Skrull War" or "Secret Wars," I did have stories that left impressions on me. At least Marvel was trying to make new classic epics like those, but just couldn't get it right. Maybe we're taking it too seriously. I dunno.

But what I do know is this . . . "Onslaught," for all its flaws and all its silliness, was perhaps among the most impressionable and important moments in the entire time I've been reading comics. In fact, if not for "Onslaught," I probably wouldn't be on this board, as it was "Onslaught" that sparked my interest in "Avengers" in the first place.



Oh, and Rob Liefeld can't draw. He was okay when he first worked on "New Mutants," but at some point while working on "X-Force," his work just . . . crumbled.

BUT, I give him credit for still going out there and doing what he loves to do despite everyone hating him.

~W~

[dlw66]

W -- nothing personal, I'm sure, just RSC, Steed, and me (the grumpy old men -- bobc, too!) waxing nostalgiac on our misspent youths. Unfortunately there's just a little ethnocentrism (I'm sure the Night Phantom can come up with a better term as our resident wordsmith) in what we like, and we all tend to think our formative years were the best.

[thew40]

dlw66 said:

W -- nothing personal, I'm sure, just RSC, Steed, and me (the grumpy old men -- bobc, too!) waxing nostalgiac on our misspent youths.

As am I. I didn't take offense to what was said, I was just surprised by the word "unfortunate" is all.

Unfortunately there's just a little ethnocentrism (I'm sure the Night Phantom can come up with a better term as our resident wordsmith) in what we like

Ethnowhawhat?

. . . and we all tend to think our formative years were the best.

Mine were better than yours!

. . . kidding.

[redstatecap]

Unfortunate not meaning that you liked it as a 13-year old kid, because how many 13-year-olds (including myself) are really capable of the kind of evaluation we're doing now?
Unfortunate just meaning that (IMO) comics have declined to the point where today's 13-year olds will be (in time) nostalgic for "Civil War," rather than the truly great comic arcs of the 60s, 70s, and 80s.
I really do think that is too bad that as a kid I got some great stuff, and today's kids are getting almost nothing but crap from Marvel.

RSC

[dlw66]

Amen, brother. I often think that if my oldest son, who is almost 15, were a regular comics buyer today (he likes it just a bit -- collects Marvel Legends mostly) what would pass for his "formative years". Born in 1991, he surely would have been an Image zombie. But, to make sure that never happened, I purchase tpb's for him every Christmas.

He's received Spider-Man: The Alien Costume, X-Men: The Dark Phoenix Saga, Crisis On Infinite Earths, X-Men Masterworks (reprints GS #1-issue #100) and several others. I make sure he's cultured correctly...

[von Bek]

Don´t want to rain on anyone´s parade, but I don´t think no matter what we read in our formation years it will necessarily be remembered as a masterpiece. If instead of John Buscema and Neal Adams Rob Liefeld and Todd MacFarlane were the Avengers artists when I started reading comics I would probably have not become a comic reader... Even back then as a kid there were artists (and writers) whose work I couldn´t stand.

[steed]

I don't know. I think I read comics because I liked comics. I started out on a bunch of DC stuff from the 60's and got into Marvel when Dad brought home a stack of books he bought from some Mom and Pop store near his work. I didn't know Jack Kirby from Werner Roth and I actualy didn't care for Ditko's Spider-Man. I still read the stuff because I liked "funnybooks".

And I liked the early Avenger books but I became a real die hard fan when Roy Thomas and the Buscema brothers started to hit their stride in the mid to late 60's. I still think that anyone even remotely associated with creating any Avengers books should have to read Avergers #50 to #100 of vol #1. I was so hooked by then that I've stayed through runs of total crap hoping that the next creative team would come in and turn things around and make the Avengers great again. And that happened all the time in the 70's and the 80's.

I guess what I'm saying is in my "formative years" I read a bunch of stuff that I wouldn't read today. I read alot of books drawn by Don Heck but it didn't stop me from reading until Neal Adams came along. I don't think bad artist would have kept me from being a fan but I'm sure good creative teams have kept me a fan this long.

[bobc]

Wow Steed--the Buscema/Thomas years are what got me hooked for life as well, although I never thought of that until you posted that. I was a little kid in the mid 70's, but I had a friend who had an older brother who had a stack of Avengers comics from the late 60's--and of course I snooped through them. I was so floored by the amazing art by Buscema/Palmer that I just had to know what all the characters could do. I thought, in particular, the Vision, the Panther and the Black Knight looked so cool!

But naturally with my uncanny ability to be at the wrong place at the wrong time, I came into (then) current Avengers continuity in the mid 70's when a lot of the stories were good, but the art, for the most part, was pretty medicore. I still cringe when I think of Don Heck and Bob Brown. I suppose, in a way, that I've been waiting for a return to Buscema/Palmer level art ever since.

It really is kinda strange that Buscema/Palmer have never gotten the props they deserve. B and P are very popular amongst the new crop of Marvel artists, by the way. David Finch is a big fan, and rightfully so.

[thew40]

redstatecap said:

Unfortunate not meaning that you liked it as a 13-year old kid, because how many 13-year-olds (including myself) are really capable of the kind of evaluation we're doing now?
Unfortunate just meaning that (IMO) comics have declined to the point where today's 13-year olds will be (in time) nostalgic for "Civil War," rather than the truly great comic arcs of the 60s, 70s, and 80s.
I really do think that is too bad that as a kid I got some great stuff, and today's kids are getting almost nothing but crap from Marvel.

RSC

What makes the comics of the 60s 70s and 80s better than the comics of the 90s and today? I probably enjoyed the comics I grew up with just as much as you did your stuff and I see no real difference in quality. Different styles for different times, is all.

~W~

[dlw66]

Back to your regularly scheduled generation gap...

However, as my grandparents must have cringed at Elvis the Pelvis, I don't allow my kids to watch BET and MTV. Go figure...

[thew40]

dlw66 said:

Back to your regularly scheduled generation gap...

I blame the generation gap as well.

Honestly, I think this is a bigger than I thought it was. Comics these days, I've felt, are geared more towards my age group: teens to mid-to-late twenties.

And how did I get a smite? What did I do?

~W~

[dlw66]

I don't know who smited you -- I thought this was a fine conversation with nice sharing for the group (hi, I'm Doug and I'm addicted to the Avengers even though it's a sucky book now...).

Anyhow, I un-smited you, W!!

[The Night Phantom]

dlw66 said:

W -- nothing personal, I'm sure, just RSC, Steed, and me (the grumpy old men -- bobc, too!) waxing nostalgiac on our misspent youths. Unfortunately there's just a little ethnocentrism (I'm sure the Night Phantom can come up with a better term as our resident wordsmith) in what we like, and we all tend to think our formative years were the best.

I wouldn’t call myself a wordsmith (possibly because I wouldn’t think of the word, heh heh), but between Roget’s and the OED I came up with nostomania. (Possibly I would come up with something better if I had a DSM…) Or if you prefer, call it artistic conservatism.