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Post by dlw66 on Oct 18, 2006 8:38:39 GMT -5
Love him or hate him, most people have encountered John Byrne's vast body of work across the industry. What is your opinion of not only his work (vote above), but of his impact on said work? When have you loved what he did, and when have you wanted to just sock him one upside the head?
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 18, 2006 8:41:41 GMT -5
I'll be honest -- I'm still thinking and I made up the poll!! I really feel in the late 70's and through most of the 80's he was one of the most impactful creators (perhaps along with Frank Miller) in comics. His runs on X-Men and Fantastic Four defined those teams over long stretches of continuity, and his redefinition of Superman was handled very well (IMO). So, I am torn between those three books. I can tell you one thing, though -- as good as the Nefaria 3-parter was in Avengers, his run on WCA (while I loved the reintroduction of the Original Human Torch) was a disaster as far as Wanda and the Vision were concerned.
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Oct 18, 2006 9:07:40 GMT -5
I really loved his work on the X-Men with Claremont. It's part of what defines what was right about Marvel back then. I love his three or so issues of Hero For Hire, his short run on Cap, his short run on Marvel Team-Up and Marvel 2 in 1, his spell on the Avengers. And other than what happened to the Vision, I even liked his WCA.
I think his art and writing on Superman was just what that title needed at the time to get that project off the ground.
I will never forgive him for what he did to the FF. Taking the Thing out of the team and replacing him with a third rate character like She-Hulk (which is in my top ten for dumbest character name) was unforgivable to me. I remember looking at those issues on the stands and cringing every time. It's a run of the FF's that I didn't buy. I guess this qualifies as a time I wanted to sock him in the head.
I think it's strange that none of the stuff he's doing lately has any staying power. I can understand why the new Doom Patrol book went down the tubes but I'd like to know what happened to him on the new Atom book.
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Oct 18, 2006 9:14:44 GMT -5
Also, what ever happened to that 12 issue series where he "fills in" the missing years in the MU continuity? I know it was a 12 issue series but is it still supposed to be part of MU continuity? Was there a group called The First Line? Was there a Yankee Clipper? And the time traveler in that story crossed over into a Spider-Man title I think.
I'm only asking because according to that series, Reed and Ben went to college in the mid 80's or the early 90's. If that's the case then the horrible story about Uncle Teddy in FF #540 realy doesn't work.
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 18, 2006 11:36:01 GMT -5
I ended up voting for the X-Men run, thinking mainly of his collaboration with Chris Claremont. Many significant things happened during their run: introduction of Alpha Flight and a few tidbits on Wolverine's origin, the Dark Phoenix Saga, a great run-in with Magneto that spilled over into a great Savage Land story with Sauron, members of the original 5 coming and going with the all-new, all-different team, wonderful characterization development... Overall, one of the truly memorable runs in all of Marveldom (for the time period perhaps on a par with Miller's Daredevil). While not necessarily a lasting positive, this is where the X-retail monster was born.
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Post by thew40 on Oct 18, 2006 13:45:03 GMT -5
Despite his amazing work on X-Men, Claremont is accountable for at least half of that. Plus, his "X-Men: The Hidden Years" series was terrible.
I'd say his best work was done with Fantastic Four.
~W~
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 18, 2006 14:23:15 GMT -5
W --
I don't think the poll speaks to whether or not Byrne was the writer AND the artist. I merely wanted people's opinions on his body of work. If Claremont and Byrne were using the Marvel Method, then yes, it is safe to assume that Byrne is responsible for half of the work. However, one couldn't say that just because he was billed as the artist that he did not also have a hand in the plotting, even the dialogue. And, we would probably be remiss in assuming that Claremont never gave Byrne an idea for a particular camera angle, etc.
I should say that one of Byrne's earliest (and best) X-Men stories, perhaps chronologically tying with X-Men #108, is Iron Fist #15. If you get a chance to take a peek at it (I've referred to it elsewhere on these boards), it's really a fun story of the X-Men right after they return from the Shi'ar battle at the end of Cockrum's run. Best scene in the story is Ororo getting a big bowl of potato salad right in the face!
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Oct 18, 2006 14:37:04 GMT -5
Claremont and Byrne were the Lennon and McCartney of Marvel in the 80's. I never thought either of them did as well seperately as they did together. X-Men #108 to the Death of Jean Grey in #136 (I think) was one of the best runs on a book ever. It was the best the X-Men had ever been and it was Byrnes best work. And I had forgotten Iron Fist. Byrne's work at the time was simply the best he ever did.
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Post by Engage on Oct 18, 2006 15:11:30 GMT -5
I loved his FF. The change to She-Hulk is a great example of a new character coming in and shaking up the dynamics. I also felt that the change with Johnny and Alicia becoming a couple felt natural and unforced despite the short time period it occurred.
The saga into the Negative Zone is the way the FF should be portrayed, as explorers. I still scream when I think of DeFalco undoing almost every lasting change and even managing to screw up Malice.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 18, 2006 18:12:21 GMT -5
What makes Byrne one of my favorite writers (& what's really the common trait which all my favorite writers share) is the ease with which he could switch from humor to "serious" comic book fare, usually avoiding making this an "either or" proposition, but rather mixing them up in storytelling "batches" of different degrees & variations. I never read him on Superman, Wonder Woman or Next Men... I (mea culpa!) never followed him during his years of collaboration with Claremont on the X-Men, as I've never been much of an X-Men fan (didn't use to read them at all...!). I enjoyed his run of the FF a lot... I loved his run of She-Hulk (I consider him THE definitive She-Hulk scribe) and, if I have to choose, it's he's work there which gets my vote... I loved his run of Iron Man as well; for me, another case of definitive characterization, although this time not of Iron Man, but rather of his archrival, the Mandarin. He managed to transform the Mandarin, however briefly, into the authentic A-list villian he was supposed to have been all along, making him a truly dangerous enemy for IM, even as he invested him with a degree of majesty. It is often said that a hero is only as good as his/her enemies are, and it's for that very reason that his run of IM stands in my memory as one of my all-time favorite IM periods.
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Post by Yellowjacket on Oct 19, 2006 7:36:21 GMT -5
I voted for Fantastic Four. I have to admit though, that I´m only familiar with his work on Avengers (WCA will come) and FF so far. I´m not impressed with his Avengers works, I think it is neither good nor bad.
But I´m really impressed what he has done with FF. There was some kind of boldness in both his art and writing (think alone of all the characters he "killed" and the uproar on the letters pages). In point of his art on FF it´s not so much his actual drawings (he really should not have inked himself) but the ideas he put into effect. I think of ideas like the "sideways" issue FF #252, and #272 with the splitted stories/drawings (splitted on each side). And there are some really great covers, too. I can say that I was likewise impressed with Byrne´s art as I was with Frank Miller´s first DD run (even though Miller is the far superior artist).
Storywise I think he had a great, great run, with quite some highlights and fresh ideas (like the Doom issue FF #258 or the one Byrne himself was in the story). Then comes the short story with the Trappster on my mind, really a good one, I was amazed how much I enjoyed that story. And that´s really not the only one I liked very much.
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Post by von Bek on Oct 19, 2006 9:40:11 GMT -5
You guys are forgetting his Namor series. I would not say it was my all time favourite Byrne work, but it was very good and deserved a mention.
But I don´t understand what happened to Byrne after that, from around the mid nineties on he became a shadow of the artist he was.
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 19, 2006 9:46:53 GMT -5
A shadow of the artist he was, and allegedly a very conceited man. I have not read many positive things about him lately. Many people pine for his zenith days of the 1980's. You are correct, vonbek, that he has not been highly praised lately. His art seems very lazy.
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Post by von Bek on Oct 19, 2006 10:06:33 GMT -5
A shadow of the artist he was, and allegedly a very conceited man. I have not read many positive things about him lately. Many people pine for his zenith days of the 1980's. You are correct, vonbek, that he has not been highly praised lately. His art seems very lazy. Yes, sketchy art and it hurts to read his comments on... well, everything, in his site message boards.
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Post by redstatecap on Oct 20, 2006 0:47:10 GMT -5
Captain America. Byrne has a lot of respect for and understanding of the character, and it showed in his work. Unfortunately it was cut short by editorial politics, but I think this is right up there with his best stuff. In particular, Captain America #253-254 are two of the finest comics I've ever read. One can only imagine how things would have gone if Stern and Byrne had not been forced out.
RSC
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 20, 2006 7:35:17 GMT -5
I think at times in his career Byrne's employability was directly proportional to issues with his ego. I don't know if that's the case on Capt. America, but I've heard other assignments were cut short or never materialized.
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Post by von Bek on Oct 20, 2006 9:21:08 GMT -5
Captain America. Byrne has a lot of respect for and understanding of the character, and it showed in his work. Unfortunately it was cut short by editorial politics, but I think this is right up there with his best stuff. In particular, Captain America #253-254 are two of the finest comics I've ever read. One can only imagine how things would have gone if Stern and Byrne had not been forced out. RSC One of my favourite Cap eras too. Do you know any details about why those two were forced out (like you put it) of the book, RSCap? Stern departure from the Avengers (ironically due to his objections about making Cap leader again in Monica´s place, among other things) is for me the beginning of the end for the team. I don´t hate Harras Avengers, but until Busiek-Perez it was not the Avengers at all...
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Post by von Bek on Oct 20, 2006 9:27:01 GMT -5
I think at times in his career Byrne's employability was directly proportional to issues with his ego. I don't know if that's the case on Capt. America, but I've heard other assignments were cut short or never materialized. He always had had ego issues (like many Marvel creators from the 70´s-80´s; think Claremont, Shooter, etc.), but nowadays he started to cross the line of being civilized. I´m neither american nor black, but even I know the word black person is offensive.
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 20, 2006 14:46:40 GMT -5
One of my favorite Byrne issues (from a creative standpoint -- the topic is kind of gruesome) is the FF where Johnny has to deal with a boy who has burned himself attempting to eumulate the Torch. I think it's around #280 somewhere. Very emotional.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Oct 22, 2006 3:37:48 GMT -5
I think at times in his career Byrne's employability was directly proportional to issues with his ego. That would be “ inversely proportional”, wouldn’t it?
One of my favorite Byrne issues (from a creative standpoint -- the topic is kind of gruesome) is the FF where Johnny has to deal with a boy who has burned himself attempting to eumulate the Torch. I think it's around #280 somewhere. #285.
Right now, only three poll choices have gotten votes, and here are the tallies: “Other”: 2 votes (22.2%) X-Men/X-Men: The Hidden Years: 3 votes (33.3%) Fantastic Four: 4 votes (44.4%)
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Post by Shiryu on Oct 23, 2006 2:59:45 GMT -5
I voted for X-Men, but I also considered his runs Alpha Flight and Cap. Personally, I think that Byrne is very good when he can start from scratch (like Alpha F and, basically, the new X-Men), but can also make real disasters when he jumps in (like on WCA and his most recent run on Spidey a few years ago). Nice exceptions are his FF and Cap work, even though IMO he goes too thick on the "Dark female character" thing (we had Dark Phoenix, Dark Scarlet Witch and essentially Dark Invisible Woman. I was almost expecting Dark Mary Jane to pop in at some point )
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Post by von Bek on Oct 24, 2006 14:29:34 GMT -5
Anyone remembers his "Starlord" or "Iron Fist", both with Claremont - before their work together in X-Men?
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 24, 2006 15:09:40 GMT -5
I'm so glad you brought Starlord up, vonbek, because I have no clue as to what was that about & yet his name keeps popping up on "Annihilation", which I buy, as if it should have some sort of significant meaning.... Could you elucidate...?
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Post by von Bek on Oct 25, 2006 13:20:13 GMT -5
I'm so glad you brought Starlord up, vonbek, because I have no clue as to what was that about & yet his name keeps popping up on "Annihilation", which I buy, as if it should have some sort of significant meaning.... Could you elucidate...? Here is all the information you need: www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/starlor1.htm
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 25, 2006 15:24:59 GMT -5
Hey, muito obrigado, vonbek! And, how cool & throrough is that appendix, isn't it...?
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Post by Shiryu on Oct 25, 2006 16:41:49 GMT -5
It's amazing ! I keep promising to write the Spider-Lizard profile for them, but time is never enough. Still is a really thorough website
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ozbot
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 103
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Post by ozbot on Oct 25, 2006 19:02:21 GMT -5
Hmm. No She-Hulk? Should I vote Other? Nah, I'll say FF. I will never forgive him for what he did to the FF. Taking the Thing out of the team and replacing him with a third rate character like She-Hulk (which is in my top ten for dumbest character name) was unforgivable to me. I remember looking at those issues on the stands and cringing every time. It's a run of the FF's that I didn't buy. I guess this qualifies as a time I wanted to sock him in the head. To be fair, IIRC the reason Thing was written out was an editorial mandate because the Thing was going to get his own series after the first Secret War. So She-Hulk's entrance was kinda a necessary "evil." But since it coincided with my entry into comics, it holds a special place in my memory.
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 25, 2006 19:11:00 GMT -5
I feel badly about omitting both Alpha Flight and She-Hulk from the poll. When I was throwing it together for whatever reason those titles didn't come to me, which is strange since when I voted for X-Men I commented on the introduction of Alpha Flight in those very pages! All you Canucks and big-green-babe lovers, just vote "other"!
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Oct 25, 2006 19:43:19 GMT -5
Wahoo, Ozbot!! You are the first to take m to task, personnally, for saying that I mwould never forgive JB for his run on the FF. I think he did a butt lad of things that were just cheap manipulative moves (that kid trying to be Torch story I could have written with both my hands tied behind my back. And bringing in the bogus Aunt Petunia shows how little he knows about the Thing.
If you wanna be Roy Thomas then create new ideas that a real writer would write.
But thanks for taking me to task. Thjere is nothing wrong with smeone elses opinion.
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Post by Shiryu on Oct 26, 2006 7:53:54 GMT -5
He created a very young and pretty Aunt Petunia, didn't he ? a bit of a joke for those (including me) who though she was a somewhat ancient woman
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