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Post by Bored Yesterday on Aug 27, 2007 12:26:29 GMT -5
That change you observe in Hawkeye, Hourman, is so true. I also liked how he changed during his hiatus before forming the West Coast Avengers.
It seems that character development is something that can occur off panel!
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Post by The Night Phantom on Sept 5, 2007 21:46:16 GMT -5
That change you observe in Hawkeye, Hourman, is so true. I also liked how he changed during his hiatus before forming the West Coast Avengers. It seems that character development is something that can occur off panel! As I recently noted, Hawkeye arguably did some off-panel healing after his wife’s death, too. Maybe it’s a character trait…
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Sept 6, 2007 9:42:33 GMT -5
It's so much more dignified that way. Look at Hank Pym -- all those on panel emotional breakdowns. Best to keep that stuff on the cutting room floor.
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Post by Crimson Cowl on Sept 18, 2007 11:49:27 GMT -5
I think Roy Thomas's were the best characterizations for the Vision. The struggle with his identity as a 'cold' android trying to find his place in the world was what made him an interesting character. The eventual marriage with Wanda was a fine conclusion to the storyline but left the character with little else to explore. Bringing back Wonder man gave the character more mileage, but once that was done the character was left with few interesting options to explore. I particularly love David Micheline's 'Interlude' (c.196?) for its presentation of the Vision. The Vision needed a change eventually (the Vision and Scarlet Witch mini-series proved that). The marriage was a good idea and story but in the log run it was a dead end for the character's core identity- he became too human.
Regarding Byrne I think that the story was a good one and the Vision needed a change. I'd have been interested to see what he'd have done with the Vision if he'd stayed on the Avengers books. He didn't trash the Vision's legacy as he was still made from some of Horton's spare parts. This did make sense whereas having him actually be the Torch really didn't ( I never understood Busiek's need to 'fix' this). Anyway the whole point wasn't to trash the Vision but to bring back the Torch for Marvel's 50th Anniversary. Byrne took the opportunity to make some long overdue changes to the Vision to make him an interesting and important character again. Whether he would ultimately have been successful we'll never know. I don't think Byrne can be blamed for reducing the Vision's power (yes, he should be powerful) and I believe he wanted to make the Vision more important as a character not less (the same goes for the Scarlet Witch who was in a similar quandary). I certainly don't think that constantly changing the Vision from ultra-cold and back again serves a useful purpose (quite the oposite). If it were up to me what I'd have done with the Vision at the time of Byrne's shake up would be to have the Vision develop a personality from the 'ultra-cold' position over time but maintain his distance from 'organic people' so that he remains 'different'. Show that the reason he can experience human emotion is because he is a synthezoid, an extremely sophisticated machine that can simulate all human functions including emotion. Simon Williams brain patterns wouldn't be necessary in this scenario (to me they were always a sop anyway). The Vision is incredily sophisticated and intelligent with a unique perspective on the human world, but he should also be a child in some ways- creating inner tension. This would get back to the heart of Roy Thomas' character. Soapy elements are necessary for stories (and Englehart's stuff was really soapy) but to my mind they shouldn't be the core of the narrative which should be driven by the essence of the characters, after all that's what made them interesting in the first place.
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Hourman
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 83
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Post by Hourman on Sept 24, 2007 11:32:43 GMT -5
But the problem was it removed the whole Spock-like aspect to his character, and made him much more like Data from the NTG.
I disagree that his character was a "dead end" once he married Wanda. I agree his character spun out of control once the control crystal was removed and the whole aspect of children was included.
But what made his character interesting was the duality of his Spock-like conflict of emotions and being a cold synthenzoid. Wanda could know the inner man, but the rest of the Avengers would never get to know him that way.
And whenever Wanda was hurt or in danger, the Vision could release all this pent up rage at feeling apart from the rest of the world and take it out on whomever.
I thought Busiak's discussions onto the differences between Wonder Man and Vision was quite interesting. How Wonder Man viewed his life as a failure and how he envied Vision because he wasn't saddled with those failures... Indeed, when Simon told Wanda how he was a skinny little math brain who snuck into clubs to listen to jazz, Wanda remarked how that sounded more like the Vision than Simon.
Why? Because Simon never showed any interest in logic or science once he was Wonder Man -whereas the Vision had.
I guess I'm syaing that I found the whole "dead end" problem to be more of a reflection on the writers at the time limitations rather than a weakness of the character.
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Post by Crimson Cowl on Sept 24, 2007 13:08:32 GMT -5
Hourman wrote:
Agreed, but I seriously doubt that Byrne intended to keep him that way or expected anyone else to do so. It would be an even greater dead end. What I was saying was that I think they should get back to the Vision being someone struggling with his own status as a machine who experiences emotion, and his inner conflict over whether those feelings are comparable to what organic beings experience or are even valid. I do think that the whole 'Wonder Man's brain patterns' angle watered down this idea and didn't help the charater regarding what made him interesting. My suspicion is that Byrne wanted to explore those elements of the Vision (though he was undoubtedly more preoccupied with the Scarlet Witch).
Hourman wrote:
That's perfectly fair, sure a good writer could have done something with them. Unfortunately comics don't always get good writers (some get them rarely). Considering the lack of inspiration with these characters (and sometimes awful stuff) that had been treading water for years a reboot of the Vision with a gradual progression back to the 'classic' Vision was the best thing for the character in the long run IMO. Unfortunately Byrne got bored and jumped ship (as he so often does) before he could explore this kind of angle (and I accept that this is entirely my presumption that this is the kind of thing he had in mind anyway).
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Hourman
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 83
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Post by Hourman on Sept 24, 2007 15:03:00 GMT -5
I have an interview with Byrne somewhere around when he was doing WCA where he explained why he did what he did to the Vision...
The costume change: he hated the yellow cape and the green costume... he wanted something more "ghostly" for lack of a better term -hence the silver/white look.
The marriage to the Scarlet Witch and their children: another thing he disliked... he thought the children idea was too far fetched, even for a comic book, and wanted break up the couple just to introduce the Wonder Man love triangle.
Bringing back the Human Torch: Byrne was also working on his Namor series about this same time, so he wanted to reintroduce the Invaders byt bring back the Torch, and later bringing back Spitfire (in Namor's book).
Byrne then got stuck in what I call the "Dark Phoenix storyline" rut, with the Scarlet Witch. She is exposed to tramatic events, manipulated by a villian for his own selfish ends, then has a brerak down where she turns completely evil and battles the team -complete with torture sequences of team members who love her most.
Then she is snapped back to reality when the plot begins to unravel.
You're right though... when Byrne jumped ship, it was left to others to sort of pick up the pieces of his mess and try to do something with those characters -hence the creation of the Alex Lipton brain patters angle.
Then there was the strange "romances" with people like Crystal and Deathcry, who were somehow attracted to a him, but didn't really give a reason why other than writers' whim.
I was very happy to see the progression back to the "real" Vision... at least then there was some personality to the character again.
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Post by sharkar on Sept 24, 2007 20:07:53 GMT -5
Hourman wrote: Agreed, but I seriously doubt that Byrne intended to keep him that way or expected anyone else to do so. But it seems like this is what happened...the blank slate, ghostly-white "Data" Vision stuck around for years, right? I agree the WCA VisionQuest story was very powerful and led to other storylines/developments, but as someone who is just now catching up and reading 80s/90s comics, I'm just surprised to see how long Byrne's version of Vision existed, without intervention from another writer.
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Post by Crimson Cowl on Sept 25, 2007 7:13:39 GMT -5
sharkar wrote:
Yes, I agree. There does seem to have been a general apathy and lack of interest in the character by Avengers writers in this period. The last 100 issues of the Avengers (vol.1) are a bit of a waste of space in my book anyway. The writing is mostly mediocre to downright awful. The Byrne WCA are pretty much the only ones I consider to be any good of that series (the mini-series was okay though).
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Post by von Bek on Sept 25, 2007 9:29:23 GMT -5
sharkar wrote: Yes, I agree. There does seem to have been a general apathy and lack of interest in the character by Avengers writers in this period. The last 100 issues of the Avengers (vol.1) are a bit of a waste of space in my book anyway. The writing is mostly mediocre to downright awful. The Byrne WCA are pretty much the only ones I consider to be any good of that series (the mini-series was okay though). What was really creepy in Byrne´s version of the Vision was the 'revelation' that Vizh didn´t have any genitals. Even Data was build as a... er... complete man. That was kinda disturbing... Poor Wanda...
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Post by Tana Nile on Sept 27, 2007 10:27:15 GMT -5
sharkar wrote: Yes, I agree. There does seem to have been a general apathy and lack of interest in the character by Avengers writers in this period. The last 100 issues of the Avengers (vol.1) are a bit of a waste of space in my book anyway. The writing is mostly mediocre to downright awful. The Byrne WCA are pretty much the only ones I consider to be any good of that series (the mini-series was okay though). What was really creepy in Byrne´s version of the Vision was the 'revelation' that Vizh didn´t have any genitals. Even Data was build as a... er... complete man. That was kinda disturbing... Poor Wanda... Yeah, that really went against what Roy Thomas and especially Steve Englehart seemed to be saying in previous issues, as far as Vision being 'a man' in every way except the materials he was made of. Just seemed so completely unnecessary.
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Post by dlw66 on Sept 27, 2007 10:31:06 GMT -5
Forgive me for not recalling nor having the books in front of me right now:
Was that revelation before Wanda entered the Dark Scarlet Witch (now there's an original idea!!) phase? Was it played up to be a contributing factor?
...I wish I had the books with me now -- my curiosity is piqued!!
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Post by Crimson Cowl on Sept 27, 2007 13:36:29 GMT -5
This thread is starting to sound like an excerpt from 'Mallrats'.
Yeah, the Vision's nakedness was revealed before Wanda went nuts. They don't play it up, but I suppose that sexual fustration might have been intended to be implied as a contributing factor (and possibly to the phantom pregnancy too).
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Post by Tana Nile on Oct 25, 2007 13:06:33 GMT -5
I've been thinking about the Vision a lot lately. He was favorite hero for quite some time growing up. I really do miss his presence in the Marvel U nowadays (I don't count the YA Vision - it just ain't the same guy).
I would agree somewhat with both crimsoncowl and Hourman that by removing the Vision's struggle with his identity, much of the appeal of the character was diminished. However, there's a fine line to walk here between character stagnation and character growth. If he is forever trying to figure out "who am I?" this gets a tad boring. But if you go the other direction and have a happy "Ozzie and Harriet" existence for him, that too leaves us with a bland hero. There should be some way to balance the two extremes.
I still think his romance with Wanda was a good thing and an important step in his path to building his own identity. I just think things went a little too far off that path at some point. The children were definitely a bad idea. What would have been far more interesting (to me) is to see what would happen to their relationship when Wanda desperately wants to be a mother and the Vision is physically incapable of being a father. They could look to adopt and be turned down. Other methods of attaining a child could also be controversial. Would the Vision start to think that perhaps he was only making Wanda unhappy and she deserved more? Would he even pull an Ultron and try to make his own heir?! There's a lot of different ways that could spin out.
I liked how Shooter had Vision be plagued with self-doubt once Wonder Man reappeared. Their rocky road together was particularly interesting. Busiek's writing in this area was also quite good.
What puzzles me most of all is that no one - fans, writers -seems to really care that this character is gone. We heard far more complaints about Hawkeye's death than the Vision's. I have wondered if maybe Vizh was more a product of his time- the android searching for his identity debuting right in the middle of the youth movement and the struggle to "find oneself".
There have been many comparisons of the Vision to Spock, another character from that general time period. Yet, Spock eventually found himself, and still went on to have some compelling stories. Why not the Vision?
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Post by balok on Oct 25, 2007 13:44:02 GMT -5
I was so numb by the end of Disassembled that I seriously began to lose all interest in the Avengers for a period of time. Bendis hasn't done anything to spark that; actually, what has made me realize I still care about the characters is how angry I got at the outcome of Civil War, and the way I felt it misused so many of Marvel's stalwarts.
I always enjoyed the Vision. He had a nice set of powers, an appropriately eerie origin and a very nicely laid personality that fostered stories. It is my profound hope that someday a new set of Marvel creators will restore him to his former halcyon days.
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Post by Engage on Oct 27, 2007 18:45:22 GMT -5
Here's a question:
Is the smiling Vision the creepiest thing ever?
The Vision is an interesting character to try and find the right about of emotion. He needs to have the full range of emotions but express almost none of them.
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Post by uberwolf on Nov 6, 2007 11:00:12 GMT -5
Always preferred the dark brooding Vision. A creature struggling with emotions and interactions with the living creatures around him.
So, anyone else notice what a babe magnet he was? Might have to get around to making a list of the super gals that made goo goo eyes at him.
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Jun 22, 2008 13:27:33 GMT -5
Forgive me for resurrecting an old thread...
I personally very much liked The Vision. In fact, he's one of my favorite Avengers. Up until the lobotomy that he got in the 80's, where he lost his color and/or all emotions, he was definitely one of my favorites. And while I never understood it, I always thought that Wanda falling in love with him was a pretty cool idea. It worked in an Odd Couple sort of way! Loved how mysterious he was in the first few issues. It was almost like The Avengers, though try as they might, never EVER fully trusted the guy...
Does anyone remember the cool story where The Grim Reaper put The Vision and Wonder Man on trial to try and find out which of the two was his true brother? I want to say it was in the...150's or 160's? Anyway, that was an awesome story, and my favorite Vision story, other than the famous "Even An Android Can Cry!" issue (58.)
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Post by sharkar on Jun 22, 2008 20:47:33 GMT -5
Does anyone remember the cool story where The Grim Reaper put The Vision and Wonder Man on trial to try and find out which of the two was his true brother? I want to say it was in the...150's or 160's? Anyway, that was an awesome story, and my favorite Vision story, other than the famous "Even An Android Can Cry!" issue (58.) Yes, you're right, it was #160. There's a great cover gallery section on this very website that contains most of the Avengers covers...which is where I found the covers shown below. "The Trial" (#160) is a fantastic story, as you stated. Speaking of the Reaper-Wonder Man-Vision connection, one of my favorite stories in this vein begins in the earlier #102, when the Grim Reaper tantalizes the Vision with the prospect of implanting Vizh's mind in Simon Williams' body. (Of course a few issues later it is revealed that the Reaper had intended to use Cap's body instead of Simon's.)
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Post by dlw66 on Jun 23, 2008 9:02:52 GMT -5
Forgive me for resurrecting an old thread... Can one ever truly talk TOO MUCH about the Avengers?? I praise you for heading into this forum's history -- I've tried to join up with some other message boards in the past and it is really difficult to feel like I belong because of all that's gone on before. You're doing a great job, doctorhankpym, and fitting in quite nicely I should say! EDIT: spelling error.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 23, 2008 9:30:13 GMT -5
Forgive me for resurrecting an old thread... I personally love it when people resurect old threads. I know some sites seem to think that once an issue has been discussed, that should be it but there are always new people to throw in their opinions and time often adds new perspectives to the opinions of those of us that have been around for awhile. Besides, resurections and comic book do tend to go hand in hand.
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Post by Dr. Hank Pym on Jun 23, 2008 10:23:24 GMT -5
sharkar: That was another great one! The Grim Reaper became one of my favorite Marvel Super-Villains after The Vision and/or Simon both had been on the team at some point. The whole idea of making him and ol' Wondy brothers was an awesome idea! Always great stories. dlw66: Well, true! One can never truly talk too much about the best comic book out there. I like going back to older threads and reading discussions. And thank you! spiderwasp: Yeah, that's what I like too. However, some sites tend to frown upon going back to older threads, even when it's something that can easily be resurrected for new discussions! Thus, those kinds of sites are the ones I tend to generally avoid! This place is nice, though.
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Post by Tana Nile on Jun 23, 2008 21:26:52 GMT -5
Resurrecting posts is a fine tradition here at AA! Don't hesitate to do it.
I know I've said it before, but I really miss the Vision. He was such an interesting character, and he was discarded so casually. I really don't think he ever recovered from Byrne's deconstruction of him. After that he was always perceived more as the machine imitating man, rather than the 'ghost inside the machine'.
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Post by Shiryu on Jun 26, 2008 16:41:52 GMT -5
I echo Dlw's sentiments, feel free to resurrect old 3Ds Tana's last comment made me think about a question: when you think about the Vision, in your mind do you consider him a machine still trying to become human, or just an android? For me, it's definitely the first. This side has not been portrayed in a few years now, perhaps since Busiek left, but for me he (and Data from Star Trek TNG) will always be on a perennial quest for humanity.
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Post by ultron69 on May 6, 2009 8:19:04 GMT -5
I love the Vision, and I think that perhaps Steve Englehart handled him best.
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Post by visionloveswanda on Jan 1, 2011 1:50:08 GMT -5
In the spirit of reviving old threads...I joined AA just based on the high quality of the discussion in this thread alone! The Vision is my favorite character of all time, with Wanda as a distant second.
I saw, but was not able to pick up a copy of a recent Avengers issue in which Vision tell Loki that "He has toyed with our hearts" in reference to his impersonating Wanda (And Cassie is shown in distress over this comment). Anybody know what issue and title this was from? It was fairly recent.
In any case, I think you could get the old vision back by him simply rediscovering an old file in which he saved his old memory and brain patterns. That tech easily existed in the 616 continuity back in the Byrne (or should I say BURN) days.
But depending on how the above storyline plays out, it could be that the original Vision is already back and is once again keeping his cards hidden, probably to spare Cassie's feelings given that Wanda is incapacitated anyway...
An interesting storyline might be to have Vision go to Transia to care for her and see if he can restore her to her old (sane) self with resistance from other heroes (who fear a restored Scarlet Witch).
What y'all think?
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Post by humanbelly on Jan 1, 2011 8:00:44 GMT -5
An interesting storyline might be to have Vision go to Transia to care for her and see if he can restore her to her old (sane) self with resistance from other heroes (who fear a restored Scarlet Witch). What y'all think? I think. . . that is a very plausible, credible, and engaging story idea. As is your point about the fact that surely Vizh's recorded "memory patterns" must exist somewhere (although I seem to remember there being a conflict at some point 'way back with Simon over the fact that he wouldn't allow a re-recording of his engrams for just such a restoration-- so maybe they "officially" don't exist.) There's the problem, of course, that the current edition of Vision is a unique person now as well (a young, alternate-dimension version of Marcus/Kang, isn't he? Something like that?), and has established a life and identity of his own with the Young Avengers and relationships therein. But, callous as it may sound, that character has had minimal (to say the least) impact and exposure in the Marvel Universe. And didn't he start out as "Iron Lad" in the YA, at any rate? What would, of course, be terrific in "real" Vizh's Wanda quest would be that he'd surely have to rely on his Victor Shade personna quite heavily, which would be quite nice to see. Am I remembering right that he first used ol' Victor back in Avengers #80 or 81? The Red Wolf issue? Great first couple of posts, VLW-- and a much-welcome revisiting of a thread that I, in fact, had never come across! HB
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Post by visionloveswanda on Jan 1, 2011 12:34:36 GMT -5
Thanks HB! I have to say, the conversations on AA really convinced me to join up. I normally do not join such groups but this one is really exceptional and that speaks to the quality of the folks on the Boards and how they are run. So, I tip my hat to you fine Ladies and Gents!
I think you have a great point about Simon' refusal. I *think"* that happened during the Byrne run, but could be wrong about that... And, no offense to any of his fans on here--you gotta give the guy credit for coming up with some of the most imaginative retcons of all time-- but still, as far as Vizh goes, most hard core fans of the character agree that what he did was distasteful to us. (I mean really, no willy-whacker!--uncalled for!).
So, I think if he revealed that his brain patterns were being stored all along and maybe part of his effort to wean him off of Wanda or some other crazy reason, would still not be as much of a stretch as the whole Immortus Bryne line was. Even for computers of the day, not to make back-ups is REAL storyline stretch. In real life, any kind of technology as advanced as the Vision would have all sorts of fail safes and clone files, etc.
Of course, I've read on the blog Martian Vision (under a post called AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE... RE-VISIONS--very cool if any of you guys want to check it out) that the current Vizh has been subtly shifted over to the original by Busiek without any fanfare so to not stoke the ire of Byrne and his followers. So, maybe my idea is too much of a confrontation and maybe not needed?
You are right on target as far as the current Vision goes. I have to say, I'm a fan of the late 60's to early 80's Vision and I find the current one hard to understand. As you say, he hasn't really been focused on. If he has Kang's powers in that suit, shouldn't he also be the bad-ass of all time? : ) Have never understood that, let alone the Iron Lad personality thing.
I love the idea of using the Victor Shade persona as a way to get into her current world. That would be so cool. I can see the pro-registration Avengers coming after him to stop him, or something like that. A whole love versus the greater good story line. And he could argue that a restored Wanda with the power of the insane one would be a powerful force for good, while Tony Stark and Doc Strange tell him she was messing with forces that should never have been messed with in the first place...
I think we might be on to something here... : )
Sorry for writing a book!
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Post by humanbelly on Jan 1, 2011 16:35:17 GMT -5
I think we might be on to something here... : ) Sorry for writing a book! Ohhhh, yer preachin' to the choir here, pal-! You might as well commit to that book right up front. Heck, young Goldenfist writes whole plays! Owene writes fascinating, meticulous in-depth reviews of early silver-age classics! Sharkar is a frankly brilliant researcher and historian, and can wax on at riveting length about comic industry details that you would swear she had to attain through questionable means (although she seems to maintain the highest moral caliber, so that's not likely). And I-- well, I tend to just talk a lot here, and have an EXTREMELY overly-ornamental idiom, filled with parantheticals, tangents, and run-ons, that defies conventional editorial reduction! Kind of a curse, really. But I don't think we'd want to change those previous contributors even one fraction of an iota, y'know? So please, do go on. You'll have to strive mightily before you succeed in offending. ;D HB
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comaboy
Great Lakes Avenger
Posts: 34
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Post by comaboy on Jul 10, 2011 9:57:55 GMT -5
Resurrecting posts is a fine tradition here at AA! Don't hesitate to do it. OK! I decided to chime in because the Vision has always been my favorite character and because I happen to be rereading Essentials Vol. 4 right now. I tend to think of his best period as being from around #141 to the 180s or so. He tended to be front and center and writers made good use of his powers. I'm not sure I agree with Avengers being "his" book back when Roy Thomas introduced him. To me he seems to sit in the background a bit, at least until after the Scarlet Witch is (re)introduced). Then again, the focus seemed to be on the action and less the characters back in those days. I'm saddened, like other here, that there has been so little notice taken of his destruction during Disassembled. I like the new version from Young Avengers, but it really isn't the same. I'm hopeful that something might be done about it by Heinberg in the Children's Crusade series.
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