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Post by Shiryu on Mar 4, 2006 6:08:11 GMT -5
It's hinted in many posts that this character is fairly popular, so what do you think of him ? which author did portray him best (or worse) and what would you do with him were you an Avengers' writer ?
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Post by Van Plexico on Mar 4, 2006 18:39:37 GMT -5
A great question, and one I could write for an hour on. But, in brief: I would focus on two or three main points about the Vision-- on the main things that drive him, and on the journey he must take to reach his goals. What are his goals? To be accepted as a human, or alongside humans; to have the love of the one he loves (Wanda, still, I would imagine); to become a more complete "person" who is somewhat comfortable with himself; to contribute as an Avenger and a hero and help keep his world and humanity safe. Striving to reach those goals, over the years, has brought him into conflict with everyone from Ultron and the Grim Reaper to Wonder Man, the Scarlet Witch, and the US Government (not to mention John Byrne). I liked how Kurt Busiek had him actually asking a woman other than Wanda out (Carol, I think). That was a good beginning. From there, I would have had him basically trying to use her to make Wanda jealous, which is a bad thing and very unfair to Carol, but would show just how Human he can be (in bad ways as well as good!). But I would probably find a new female interest for him, rather than Carol. Remember his sort-of fling with Mantis? Someone like that. I imagine this would actually have driven Wanda further into Simon's arms, at least in the short term. Much good "soap opera" drama could come from the four of them involved in this way. Just imagine the tensions on a double date like that...! I would also portray him as being as powerful as he actually is. Enough with the "I will turn ephemeral and disrupt you with my hand." I'd have him turn hard as diamond and bash away at villains, while zapping them with his eye-beams and solar gem. I think too many writers get hung up on "he's the robot Avenger." I would focus on him being a synthezoid-- a synthetic person. His entire existence, to even a greater degree than Captain America, revolves around him being an Avenger. That's another point of departure for some great stories involving the Vision, as he struggles with his role in the world, and finding a life and a purpose beyond just waiting around Avengers HQ for the next villain to attack. (All of this is assuming NEW AVENGERS is done away with, Vizh is alive, and the Mansion is back.) That scratches the surface a bit. Maybe I'll tackle Vizh more in depth in MV-1's AVENGERS before my run there ends...
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Post by bobc on Mar 7, 2006 13:02:18 GMT -5
I've been a fan of the Vision from the time he began--and I liked him a lot better when he was more mysterious and scary. He is another Avenger who has been depowered over the years--there was a time when he would increase his mass enough to be able to stomp on the floor and make half a building collapse. He was considered the third most powerful Avenger, almost as strong as Iron Man or Thor--and his ability to become as hard as diamond made him virtually indestructable. The best thing about him, though, was that he was completely impossible to read in the early days. He was detached in a scary kind of way.
Do you all remember when the Reaper offered the Vision a deal to rat out the Avengers in order to to get the human body of Simon Williams? That was a classic, classic storyline. It defined his character in a way that's never happened since.
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Post by oldavengersfan on Mar 7, 2006 20:33:28 GMT -5
I still remember opening that West Coast Avengers Issue and seeing the Vision laid out on a slab. Sometimes I really hate John Byrne.
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Post by Shiryu on Mar 8, 2006 12:48:40 GMT -5
Some interesting ideas here. I agree with some of Van's points, the Vision is (was ?) a powerhouse, but sometimes this is forgotten. His "phase" attack is cool, but it's also good to see him punching enemies with his diamond dense body. I guess they don't show it often only because there are other characters in the team who rely on physical strenght a lot (Thor, Hercules, Wonder Man, even Goliath occasionally), but still it's a pity. I also liked him dating someone other than Wanda, but I think she is her true love (and he is her), dividing them for too long is like dividing Reed from Sue or Peter from MJ (which is not that bad occasionaly, if they get back together in the end). Something I regret is that his "Data-like" (for those who know Star Trek TNG) attempts to become more human have often been forgotten by the writers. I don't have many issues with the white Vision, but he seemed totally robotic there. On the other hand, I enjoyed Stern's "pacific world takeover" storyline (but not what came from there during Byrne's run) and the Busiek written dialogues/clashes with Wonder Man and Ultron His destruction during the Disassembled storyline has been one of his worse moments. Destroyed by She-Hulk in a fit of rage after having been controlled by Scarlet. Definitely not a good way to end his life. Hope he comes properly back soon...
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Post by BoredYesterday on Mar 8, 2006 14:19:07 GMT -5
I really enjoyed the battle between the Vision and Silver Surfer during the Avengers-Defenders war, circa issue 116. It was as you describe, diamond-density brawling, except in the middle of a volcano. This period of Avengers history has Vision at his best. His recently acknowledged love for the Scarlet Witch, his desire to be more human, his great power -- and he is treated as a true synthezoid, not as a robot.
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Post by bobc on Mar 8, 2006 14:24:47 GMT -5
Yeah--that whole era kicked azz! I liked that fight too, but was bitter at the time that Wanda spent all of it basically knocked out. Little did I know that just a couple of issues later, she'd be saving everybody's hide.
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 9, 2006 13:21:08 GMT -5
I did not care for the period when the Vision had plucked out whatever that gem was that was in his head, and then his speech and behavior radically changed. While there was a long time when he was thought to be in the body of the original Human Torch (who was as human as the next guy), it did not work for me this sudden departure from characterization. The whole soap opera-atmosphere of the two Vision/Scarlet Witch minis was awful. I also did not care for Byrne's reboot.
So, to agree with a few of the posts above, the Vision was at his best when he was acknowledged as a synthezoid, yet struggling with his humanity (#58: Even an Android Can Cry) and the aforementioned GS issues/Kang-Immortus/Celestial Madonna era.
EDIT: Changed issue # above.
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Post by BoredYesterday on Mar 10, 2006 8:43:43 GMT -5
While there was a long time when he was thought to be in the body of the original Human Torch (who was as human as the next guy), Which reminds me. In the letters column, somewhere between issues 111 and 114, a fan suggested that the Vision should be shown to be the original Human Torch. So, I don't know what my point is -- but I found that interesting that nearly a hundred issues later, Byrne made it so.
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Post by bobc on Mar 10, 2006 10:54:32 GMT -5
The Vision was made from the original Human Torch, but Byrne didn't have a thing to do with that story. This all happened long before Byrne came on the scene. If you go way back to the period of the Defenders/Avengers war, the Vision kept freezing up when he came in contact with water. It was all because he was fashioned from the original Human Torch, who was entombed in a water filled cage in (I guess) the 40's
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 10, 2006 11:25:10 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong -- didn't Byrne bring in Dr. Horton, who confirmed that the Vision was NOT the Torch, and then the Torch appeared with the Vision in WC Avengers for the remainder of Byrne's run? I think I still have those issues, but haven't looked at them since they were current.
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Post by bobc on Mar 10, 2006 12:32:06 GMT -5
I'm not sure DL--I never really read WCA. It always seemed a little cheesey to me. When they started in with all that Vision and Scarlet Witch having babies stuff, I was over it. I mainly see the Avengers East Coast as the real Avengers history.
What a snob I am.
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Post by Shiryu on Mar 11, 2006 9:12:02 GMT -5
Yes, Byrne did show the Vision and the Human Torch together, giving a complicated explanation for it. This was partially clarified in the Avengers Forever LS, in which it's said that Immortus manipulated events so that the Vision was made from the body of the Human Torch from another dimension (or something like that, it's been a while ago and I don't remember it very well). So in the end both Vision and Earth-616 Human Torch can exist togegher.
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 22, 2006 9:18:39 GMT -5
An interesting twist on the Vision, if writers don't like to think of him as a powerhouse, would be to make his powers like those of the Legion's Ultra Boy, in that the Vision could only use one power at a time... That would take him a notch below Iron Man, Wonder Man (no one can touch Thor anyway), etc., and create some interesting battle scene dynamics.
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 22, 2006 9:19:21 GMT -5
I'm lost on something -- what does "Earth 616" mean?
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Post by Shiryu on Mar 22, 2006 9:40:35 GMT -5
It's the code name for the "main" Marvel earth, distinguished from all the various alternative realities, what if worlds ecc. If something has happened on Earth 616, it's usually canon and should be in continuity (depending on the writers wisdom of course ^^). I think the name comes from the marvel encyclopedia and it's fairly widely used.
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 22, 2006 11:25:12 GMT -5
I did not know that -- I'd seen the reference a few times on this board. Shows how out of the loop I am on some Marvel continuity, a feeling expressed by many of us who started reading in the early 70's!
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Post by Shiryu on Mar 22, 2006 12:59:48 GMT -5
I guess continuity has become very complicated during the years, with so many alternative realities. Anyway, I don't think that the expression Earth-616 has ever been used in the comic books themselves, but only in the encyclopedias to distinguish all the alternative versions of a character.
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Post by scottharris on Mar 23, 2006 4:06:08 GMT -5
The Vision is my favorite Avenger (Hawkeye being a close second). My favorite stories with the Vision are the Roy Thomas stories, going up through the previously-mentioned Grim Reaper story by Englehart (so that's, what, #57-108?)
In those issues Vision was kind of scary, he was distant, but he was also intelligent and thoughtful in a way that most characters of the time were not. He seemed brooding and dark, almost, as he tried to understand his purpose and his very existence, yet he had a strange self-confidence despite this.
While Vision was shown to good effect by some later writers, especially Shooter; and though Englehart did some interesting things with him; the real death knell for the character's potential was that dang Living Bombs story in #113. Besides being really goofy in execution if not in concept, this story tied him to that dread weight that is the Scarlet Witch. If only one of those bigots had managed to self-destruct on top of her and blown her to smithereens forever, the Vision might have been spared the fate of being dragged down by her presence for the next 30 years.
If I was writing the Vision I would firstly make sure the Witch didn't come anywhere near him except in the context of a story where he finally puts her crazy self in his past for good. Then I would have him get back to what he does best: being hard as diamond, blasting people with heat rays, solidifying his hand inside people's chests, playing chess with Jarvis, reading poetry in his mansion bedroom and debating the philosophical meaning of the different adventures the Avengers has. I would also have him branch out in the romance field, perhaps getting involved with a non-super powered woman, as Kurt almost set up.
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Post by Van Plexico on Mar 23, 2006 12:52:37 GMT -5
Scott, you almost convinced me there. If I didn't love Wanda so much (probably second only to Carol Danvers), I'd be with you. But, to me, you can't have Wanda without the Vision, and vice versa. I loved the times that she was messing around with Simon Williams, because that just seemed to bring the real emotion out of Vizh and get him motivated to go after Wanda-- it served as a wake up call.
You make a good case, though.
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Post by Avenger4Ever on Apr 3, 2006 18:02:15 GMT -5
Earth 616 is the earth where regular continuity stories take place. I.E. the main Marvel Universe we know and love. Like DC Comics and their Multiple Earths, Marvel likewise has many alternate realities. I don't read it but, I believe that the Exiles comic book takes place in these different realities.
A4E
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Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 3, 2006 18:25:51 GMT -5
Anyway, I don't think that the expression Earth-616 has ever been used in the comic books themselves, but only in the encyclopedias to distinguish all the alternative versions of a character. The “616” designation originated in a Captain Britain story by Alan Moore.
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Post by Yellowjacket on Apr 4, 2006 2:50:20 GMT -5
The classic Marvel universe, as opposed to the Ultimate universe and (I think) alternate universes.
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Post by dlw66 on Apr 4, 2006 7:31:54 GMT -5
So how many universes are listed now? Is a universe considered just a separate Earth? For example, if you just look at the Fantastic Four, does the Negative Zone constitute another universe? What about Counter-Earth? From the Avengers, does the Squadron Supreme live in another universe, or dimension, or just another Earth? DC's universes, as convoluted as they became, at least stood apart. Marvel's seem a little more gray to me.
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Post by Shiryu on Apr 4, 2006 10:13:04 GMT -5
No, or at least not the E-616 Negative Zone. To make it easier, everything that happens in continuity is on Earth 616, regardless of the dimension, unless the characters visit a paraller reality where there is an alternative version of some on their own. In that case, that's not E-616 but Earth something else. A huge list of all these Earths is at www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/appalte.htmIt's quite an entertaining read as well, if you like the What If scenarios. Magic makes things more complicated though. For example the Morgana Earth from Avengers V3 2-4 is not Earth 616, because things had been changed retrospectively (I think). Defeating Morgana, the Avengers restored Earth 616. PS, thanks for the correction, Night Phantom
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Post by wellsoul2 on Apr 7, 2006 4:05:31 GMT -5
He's one of my favorite Avengers too. It's too bad he's like Rodney Dangerfield and gets no respect Everytime he becomes more human he gets trashed back to robotville. I would agree with the previous poster that Vision should avoid Wanda - Her involvement with him is deeply linked to her crazy side. I was really mad at how Vision got dissed again during dissassembled. He's ripped apart and it's no big deal till the finale. Ms Marvel makes a big deal out of Hawkeye and Antman Antman!! Cap toasts Clint and Scott and it's left to Wonderman to mention Vision! and then Wanda in the same breath! Meanwhile in Young Avengers they find what's left of Vision in Tony Stark's trashpile! Oh I forgot Spidey's crack about Wanda marrying a robot! Well he's back to being a robot again I guess.. Hopefully when he thinks again he will take the "Kick Me" sign off his back and put Iron Man's armor in the trash bin! Seriously...Vision IS an Avenger's icon! Really...Has any of the Avengers visited him since he was thrown on Tony's garage floor? Really they treated his death as an afterthought. They all lived with him for years and Ant-Man gets more respect. I dunno..maybe they figure he'll recover and just be a pain as a robot again...happens every time
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Post by Avenger4Ever on Apr 7, 2006 19:33:01 GMT -5
The Vision is a big favorite of mine as well. It seems that android characters never get the same treatment as other characters. The Red Tornado (another favorite of mine) over at DC Comics gets the same mistreatment. Of course my top fav Thor seems to be getting dissed a lot the last few years as well. A4E
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Post by dlw66 on Apr 7, 2006 21:08:30 GMT -5
I wonder if writers figure that because you're dealing with an artificial creature that character development isn't necessary -- that you can modify him or his personality instantly and get away with calling it an "upgrade" or some such excuse.
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Post by Avenger4Ever on Apr 9, 2006 0:03:36 GMT -5
I think you hit it on the head there Doug. Both Vision and Red Tornado have had very human personalities develop over the years and then bang, a writer comes in and in one fell swoop totally changes their personalties. Now once could be understandable and used for great effect such as having their humanity stripped away and their comrades reactions to such but, with those two characters it happens constantly. They basically are not allowed to grow as characters. Such a waste but, thats how things seem to work out for comic book androids. At least R2D2 & C3PO have had consistent personalities for nearly 30 years and even developed more through their comic book incarnations over the years.
A4E
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Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 9, 2006 0:20:30 GMT -5
At least R2D2 & C3PO have had consistent personalities for nearly 30 years Perhaps that’s because they’re the most human characters in their saga! ;D —whereas some of the human characters are robotic...or just wooden.
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