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Post by uberwolf on Jun 14, 2007 9:44:27 GMT -5
I trust nothing the BENDIS!?? says. No doubt he and Yu are Skrulls themselves sent to destroy all Avenger comics! And don't give me the sales are up excuse. People were buying rocks with googly eyes glued on them by the tens of thousands in the '70's. Was that a brilliant product? No, and neither are these Avenger teams. It just proves people will buy anything if it's "IN" at the time. Beany Babies anyone?
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Post by balok on Jun 14, 2007 10:20:45 GMT -5
I suppose this is going to be one of those things I'll have to count on you to let me know about, Doom. By then, I'll have dropped my last Marvel book. But I'll be glad if Civil War happened on its own. Thinking about it more, I think having it be a Skrull plot would cheapen it, and when it's time to fix it and rubbish the SHRA, that will be a better story if the SHRA was a human thing, and not a Skrull thing.
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Post by imperiusrex on Jun 14, 2007 11:59:15 GMT -5
here's why what bendis says is pointless. with several hundred titles a year and over a hundred writers, artists and editors, the possibility that someone will seize on this idea and do some retconning within the next few years is practically a given. and it will contradict a story at some other point and that story will need resolution as well. so his idea that nothing will be undone by this revelation is ridiculous. it's like saying no one will take a poorly written John Byrne story about wanda going crazy that Roy Thomas "fixed" will then be used later to destroy the team. someone out there will have a "great idea" involving the skrull invasion and it'll take just one story. and keep in mind this is an invading army,this isn't three or four skrulls on an espionage mission, there is the potential for millions of infiltrators, thus you can retcon virtually any and all events you choose to. other points that make me queasy: we just had a dire wraith invasion a few years back and Rom made Wraith detectors, and wraith were shown to be skrull offshoots so I have to imagine in a world where we make people take off their shoes before they get on airplanes, we might have kept a few wraith detectors around, y'know just in case... In fact I need to re-read this story, but according to this bit about Avengers Annual 13 from the Rom checklist Avengers Annual #13 A detector is set up to check for "Skrulls or Dire Wraiths." No Dire Wraiths appear. It appears we already HAD detectors set up. home.hiwaay.net/~lkseitz/comics/Rom/comic/checklist.shtmlGuess someone forgot to pay the electric bill? Does anyone seriously believe given how many times Earth has been invaded by various harmful races we don't have some ET detector somewhere? especially after maximum security where the entire earth was overrun with all new kinds of BEM? what if Galactus had set down in the Himalayas instead of midtown manhattan? you wouldn't have known about it for hours and mankind would be dead. given how much time they're devoting to realism this would have to be a priority in the MU. Another thing, if a Skrull is Tony Stark that would truly be the most godawful idea ever. First Tony is a mechanical innovative one of a kind genius. the skrulls come from an advanced society, you say? so what? just being from an advanced society means nothing. I can drive a car, use a computer and fly a plane. Now ask me to build any one of them. uhhh, whut? I would wager Henry Ford from more than hundred years back would be better than just about any of us at making anything mechanical. I would wager he'd be better than Einstein, so it's not just a matter of being smart and having a high IQ or coming from a society further ahead. Innovation is not just a component of genius. It's a specific skill set that one in several billion might have to equal Tony Stark. So not only is said Skrull a one of a kind genius but also a perfect impostor? ridiculous. My problem with this sort of thing is thus; marvel continues to ignore their own history when writing these stories, instead of taking the time to incorporate these items. No doubt there's a way around each point, no doubt there's a way to rectify the history, but marvel isn't going to bother. and that's just insulting to me as a reader. I suppose it's part of the reason that I'm now very rarely a buyer...
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Post by balok on Jun 14, 2007 16:29:48 GMT -5
If they make Stark a Skrull that would be baaaaaad writing for a number of reasons. But there is no theoretical reason the Skrulls couldn't have some member of their race who is an engineering genius, and then train him to be an infiltrator. Stark is very talented and certainly on the short list of top engineering talent - but he's far from unique in the galaxy.
It's certainly true that Marvel should have shapeshifter detectors, but they tried that in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and it wasn't entirely effective. Given time, an infiltrator who can change shape can get in almost anywhere. What if someone made a change to the detector software that got propagated everywhere and instructed the device to report Skrulls as humans? A single Skrull replacing an engineer somewhere could achieve it.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jun 14, 2007 16:30:30 GMT -5
Yeah, you just know Reed, being Reed & having such a long history in confronting the Skrulls & twarting their plans, would just HAVE to have some kind of Skrull detectors, if for no other reasons, because of Lyja & Johnny's history AND, as you said, rex, because of the recent Maximum Security affair... and, even in the off chance he wouldn't, then Doom would, and it just wouldn't be like the Good Doctor to allow some alien upstarts to overrun HIS world! But Bendis is such a limited writer (at least when it comes to superheroes...) and poor interview subject that it truly AMAZES me, leaves me confounded & flabbergasted to accept his huge fan following... I just have to conclude, like American Avenger says, that he's just simply in now, he's a comic industry fad, and you can sell just about anything in America (and the world will usually follow ...) with the right push & a generous marketing budget... How else to explain that this "genius" (...), who presumably knows Strange & Wolverine's capabilities, to just name 2 of the members of one of his teams, is unaware that they should be able to pick who's a skrull at ease...? Actually, I'm pretty sure it's not a lack of awareness on the subject, but a combination of laziness, hubris & egotism. Bendis, and other Marvel writers, seem to have the attitude of "Who cares...?; who cares if I blatantly ignore continuity, if I go against established characterizations...? I'm the golden boy of fandom... I can do no wrong..." Since the Big Honcho seems to have granted him carte blanche in a way few EICs have allowed to writers in the past, I believe he often acts recklessly because he knows the current Marvel administration cares, bottomline (IMO), only about the dough... and nothing about the legacy which was handed down to them. Now, of course, being realistic, Marvel IS a business 1st & foremost, and I understand they have to be but, in my estimation, most past administrations, while wanting to make as much money as possible, also cared about their product beyond their inherent monetary value. Unfortunately, Bendis is right... as long as legions of fans think, just as he does, that he can do no wrong & continue to buy whatever rubbish he cares to write, the smell of such garbage will smell oh so sweet to him & Marvel. There definitely (again, IMO) appears to be a lowering of the fan's standards when it comes to what we allow a writer to get away with, when it's blatantly obvious that he made an important mistake or just plainly doesn't know WTF he's talking about... it's as if most of comic book readers have their sh-t detectors set on "out for lunch"... or perhaps most of them never developed such detectors in the 1st place... As for Tony being a skrull, as much as I'd like him to be (that was done at the end of the "Heroes Reborn" mistake, remember...?), I don't think even Bendis would be that dense as, for one, it wouldn't fit at all with his momentary breakdown once Uris & the b--ch from the "Daily Bugle" confronted him with his less-than-kosher dealings during CW...
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jun 14, 2007 16:32:17 GMT -5
I wonder if Marvel considers ROM cannon anymore? His last appearances haven't been for a long time, his own series is even older, and he didn't even show up in the Anihilation war did he?
But It wouldn't be so unreasonable for the skrulls to have found a way around detection, I mean bad guys 'evolve' like that all the time.
But as a sweeping retcon tool it won't make for a great story.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jun 14, 2007 16:39:38 GMT -5
I suppose this is going to be one of those things I'll have to count on you to let me know about, Doom. By then, I'll have dropped my last Marvel book. But I'll be glad if Civil War happened on its own. Thinking about it more, I think having it be a Skrull plot would cheapen it, and when it's time to fix it and rubbish the SHRA, that will be a better story if the SHRA was a human thing, and not a Skrull thing. I have to disagree -to a point- with you, Balok: while I agree that such scenario would certainly cheapen what came before, since I'm no fan of current Marvel anyway I'm quite used to them disappointing me & already think most of what they have recently produced is rubbish anyway, I wouldn't care at this point, but the situation would certainly allow to undo much of the recent happenings, which I view as damage... and, perhaps, even allow one such as myself... do I dare to dream...? to return to the ranks of Marveldom Assembled...
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 14, 2007 17:11:03 GMT -5
Yeah, you just know Reed, being Reed & having such a long history in confronting the Skrulls & twarting their plans, would just HAVE to have some kind of Skrull detectors, if for no other reasons, because of Lyja & Johnny's history AND, as you said, rex, because of the recent Maximum Security affair... and, even in the off chance he wouldn't, then Doom would, and it just wouldn't be like the Good Doctor to allow some alien upstarts to overrun HIS world! Actually, Bendis hinted that Doom DOES know. But apparantly how they got around detection is a MAJOR story theme.
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jun 14, 2007 17:25:46 GMT -5
Doom knows? is that going to tie into his scheduled MA appearance? Well this is certainly sounding a little better than that ugly skrull panel had me initially think..
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Post by imperiusrex on Jun 14, 2007 18:00:51 GMT -5
If they make Stark a Skrull that would be baaaaaad writing for a number of reasons. But there is no theoretical reason the Skrulls couldn't have some member of their race who is an engineering genius, and then train him to be an infiltrator. Stark is very talented and certainly on the short list of top engineering talent - but he's far from unique in the galaxy. It's certainly true that Marvel should have shapeshifter detectors, but they tried that in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and it wasn't entirely effective. Given time, an infiltrator who can change shape can get in almost anywhere. What if someone made a change to the detector software that got propagated everywhere and instructed the device to report Skrulls as humans? A single Skrull replacing an engineer somewhere could achieve it. It not a matter of should have. I'm pretty sure they DO have shapeshifter detectors. And that adaptation would've had to have taken place fairly early because many machines are calibrated against other machines to see if they work. Not saying it couldn't be done, however I can practically guarantee Marvel won't pursue this very glaring point. And perhaps this isnt clear, but not only innovation, but also knowledge of the technology would be needed. Skrulls don't have to be humanoid so there's no reason for their tech to be anything like humanoid and it would take on completely different paths. For example, a Skrull ship shouldn't have large halls and pathways--you're skrulls, you can shapeshift through a two inch tube to get to where you need to go and it would be a huge advantage to have ships that only your bodies could use, for example. Not to mention you could do all sorts of good engineering things that make your ship more efficient if you don't have to stick to one scale for things. So there's no reason they would be able to figure out human tech, especially a singular tech like Stark's armor which is fairly unique.Technology and reverse engineering is fairly hard when you don't have a comparative basis in your own experience. And for one to not only figure it out, be able to adapt and advance it and impersonate Tony Stark so well, that nothing and no one can figure it out from seems more impossible than the Arizona Cardinals winning the Super Bowl. To me, anyway. But still there are any number of precogs, telepaths, empaths, mystics, godly second sights, people who read energy forms, et al that if the skrulls have managed to stifle all of them, then they're gonna win, because blowing up the earth is pretty easy and you can't stop the skrulls because they can just keep sending wave after wave of imperceptible invaders. Sigh I suppose this will be the marvel earth version of terrorism...
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Post by balok on Jun 14, 2007 20:30:41 GMT -5
One of the ways you get around detection is to give people no reason to look. Or to give them reasons to look elsewhere. It's like the old wheelbarrow joke.
Doctor Strange should be able to draw on the power of the master illusionist Ikonn to pierce any sort of disguise or veil - he has in the past - but he has to know to try it. I doubt he casts spells routinely to see if the earth has been infiltrated by non-magical threats, as he likely regards those as chiefly in the purview of others.
Sure, the Skrulls can become anything they want, but their base form is clearly humanoid. I'd say their technology would reflect that. Don't misunderstand me - I think there are a number of reasons why Iron Man isn't a Skrull besides that it would be awful writing. [1] I can just see a number of ways that he could be one, too.
[1] For one, see the preview of WWH #1. No way a Skrull does that. No way.
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Post by balok on Jun 14, 2007 20:34:45 GMT -5
since I'm no fan of current Marvel anyway I'm quite used to them disappointing me & already think most of what they have recently produced is rubbish anyway, I wouldn't care at this point, but the situation would certainly allow to undo much of the recent happenings, which I view as damage... and, perhaps, even allow one such as myself... do I dare to dream...? to return to the ranks of Marveldom Assembled... Well, yes, I'd *like* for some such explanation for the unheroic actions of Tony in Civil War, and of various members of the Initiative since, and for the basic disregard for individual liberty that is the SHRA. Some explanation that would allow it to be tossed onto the dustbin of comic history where it belongs would be wonderful. But at the same time, if Marvel took this easy way out, much as I might like where that exit would lead, I'd have to conclude that they'd entirely forgotten everything about good comic book writing (instead of thinking, as I now do, that they've merely forgotten most of it). So while I'd like the result, I'd constantly be wondering what hideous new thing was boiling around in their troubled little minds, ready to emerge and torment the characters I grew up (and then some) loving...
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Post by imperiusrex on Jun 15, 2007 1:10:30 GMT -5
One of the ways you get around detection is to give people no reason to look. Or to give them reasons to look elsewhere. It's like the old wheelbarrow joke. Doctor Strange should be able to draw on the power of the master illusionist Ikonn to pierce any sort of disguise or veil - he has in the past - but he has to know to try it. I doubt he casts spells routinely to see if the earth has been infiltrated by non-magical threats, as he likely regards those as chiefly in the purview of others. Sure, the Skrulls can become anything they want, but their base form is clearly humanoid. I'd say their technology would reflect that. Don't misunderstand me - I think there are a number of reasons why Iron Man isn't a Skrull besides that it would be awful writing. [1] I can just see a number of ways that he could be one, too. [1] For one, see the preview of WWH #1. No way a Skrull does that. No way. I'm sensing this is a good natured joust so I'll keep going and not think that we're butting heads. For the reasons I outlined earlier I think being on the lookout for aliens would be paramount. Think stamford was bad? Imagine if you're sleeping at the wheel when the Z'Nox or Badoon or Kree or Shi'ar or Aakon or Stone Men or whomever out of the hundreds of alien races that have made earth contact should come with even a trifling force. For the most part Earth is still not a galactic power. we don't have a fleet of space faring ships. a good defense is our ONLY offense. I just can't see how we can't have a multi layered defense at this point. Strange is not the only mystic, nor is Doom. I don't see how you stop a precognitive or someone who perecives energy and auras, or someone from the future who knows what's going to happen. Xavier is not the only telepath, SHIELD has a whole Esper squad. Someone with abilities like Jocasta (cybernetic senses) for example...I just can't see how a huge force could ever hope to have a defense against the thousands of humans who might perceive them. And just because the skrulls are humanoid, I can't imagine their technology would be based on their regular form. Skrulls have absolutely no difficulty in maintaining a shape they assume for extended periods of time. Let me give an example of how the ability to shapeshift might come in handy. The structural integrity of a ship would depend on how much you could reinforce it. That would mean as few as possible seams and strong structural reinforcement. Doing this would be simple for an engineer. So instead of a wide door, you have a small perfect cylinder so there's no structural weakness. They might not do this on all their ships, but it would make sense to create tech that utilizes your unique abilities.
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jun 15, 2007 4:13:39 GMT -5
One of the ways you get around detection is to give people no reason to look. Or to give them reasons to look elsewhere. It's like the old wheelbarrow joke. Doctor Strange should be able to draw on the power of the master illusionist Ikonn to pierce any sort of disguise or veil - he has in the past - but he has to know to try it. I doubt he casts spells routinely to see if the earth has been infiltrated by non-magical threats, as he likely regards those as chiefly in the purview of others. Sure, the Skrulls can become anything they want, but their base form is clearly humanoid. I'd say their technology would reflect that. Don't misunderstand me - I think there are a number of reasons why Iron Man isn't a Skrull besides that it would be awful writing. [1] I can just see a number of ways that he could be one, too. [1] For one, see the preview of WWH #1. No way a Skrull does that. No way. I'm sensing this is a good natured joust so I'll keep going and not think that we're butting heads. For the reasons I outlined earlier I think being on the lookout for aliens would be paramount. Think stamford was bad? Imagine if you're sleeping at the wheel when the Z'Nox or Badoon or Kree or Shi'ar or Aakon or Stone Men or whomever out of the hundreds of alien races that have made earth contact should come with even a trifling force. For the most part Earth is still not a galactic power. we don't have a fleet of space faring ships. a good defense is our ONLY offense. I just can't see how we can't have a multi layered defense at this point. Strange is not the only mystic, nor is Doom. I don't see how you stop a precognitive or someone who perecives energy and auras, or someone from the future who knows what's going to happen. Xavier is not the only telepath, SHIELD has a whole Esper squad. Someone with abilities like Jocasta (cybernetic senses) for example...I just can't see how a huge force could ever hope to have a defense against the thousands of humans who might perceive them. And just because the skrulls are humanoid, I can't imagine their technology would be based on their regular form. Skrulls have absolutely no difficulty in maintaining a shape they assume for extended periods of time. Let me give an example of how the ability to shapeshift might come in handy. The structural integrity of a ship would depend on how much you could reinforce it. That would mean as few as possible seams and strong structural reinforcement. Doing this would be simple for an engineer. So instead of a wide door, you have a small perfect cylinder so there's no structural weakness. They might not do this on all their ships, but it would make sense to create tech that utilizes your unique abilities. Your point about the smaller paths is good, If I were a skrull engineer I'd totally incorporate that into a ship design. May cause problems for any non-shapeshifting guests or prisoners. as for IM, I still think Extremis is skrull tech, I mean the biological altering properties of the process seem in the realm of skrull know-how. That way it isn't a skrull, but Tony's questionable actions are still explained. For the purpose of setting this up, NA Illuminati also had the Skrulls get their hands on IM's armor just after the Kree Skrull war, so they've had at least some time to analyze the technology.
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Post by balok on Jun 15, 2007 11:15:28 GMT -5
Oh, I'm merely tossing ideas about. I didn't say they were fully formed or even suggest that they were plausible. But with work some of them might be made good enough... For example: how hard is it to change shape? How fast do they do it? Can they do it often with n effort? I don't, personally, know the answers to these questions, or even whether they've been answered - but they'd surely impact designs based around their shapeshifting powers. Too, they lost those abilities - if they'd had a great many ships that depended on them, they may not now. Or they may have elected not to incorporate such designs in the future, against that possibility. We don't know. Just playin' devil's advocate, here... Interesting speculation about Extremis, Alchemist-X. Very interesting. It had not occurred to me before this but it would explain a great deal.
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Post by redstatecap on Jun 15, 2007 12:15:00 GMT -5
I think people are overlooking the real mechanism for how Skrulls could once again infiltrate the earth: because the writer (Bendis) says so. Let's face it: given what has happened in the past regarding various alien invasions, many of which are very public knowlegde, there would have to be "Skrull detectors," "Badoon detectors," "Brood detectors," etc etc etc. What has happened is that, as Bendis will reveal, the Skrulls have simply invented devices that foil Skrull detectors. Simple as that. Or pick some other convenient decree. It doesn't even have to be a long-drawn out process. One sentence will do it. The point is that Bendis/Marvel have decided to use the Skrulls as a deus ex machina, they are writing the stories, and what they say is fact. Whatever continuity has to be overlooked or stepped on to make this happen, will be overlooked or stepped on to make this happen. The real issue here is, what is the true purpose of utilizing the Skrull plot device? What are they "here" to fix, in terms of retcons?
RSC
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jun 15, 2007 15:29:21 GMT -5
the skrulls got slammed so hard in Anihilation too apparently, how could they have such a big scheme in the cooker at the same time too?
I was hoping that there would be referecnce to earlier clues about the skrull conspiracy, but based on the most recent skrull storylines(Anihilation, YA's Hulkling) any way to make this consiracy look good will have to involve considerable retconing.
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Post by scribbler357 on Jun 15, 2007 23:20:31 GMT -5
Hey, maybe it's not all bad. Perhaps Cap was a Skrull too and this will be the plot device that brings him back.
And, if nothing else, there's always a way out.
If this crazy direction they're taking ever tanks, they can just trot out Wanda to change everything again..."No more Skrulls...or ninjas."
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Post by uberwolf on Jun 16, 2007 11:06:57 GMT -5
I thought that Elektra just died and got all wrinkly, and I wondered why the baby looked so evil, it wasn't until i read your analasis that i realized that was Yu trying to draw a skrull. Wait... wait .... wait. I didn't read any of these but if I remember correctly... you say Elektra died and got all wrinkly... didn't the body of Steve Rogers do the same thing?? The explanation being his super soldier serum quit working and his body aged to it's true age... or are you just saying Yu's art is so bad he was trying to dry a Skrull and all that came out as wrinkles?
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 16, 2007 11:16:38 GMT -5
I thought that Elektra just died and got all wrinkly, and I wondered why the baby looked so evil, it wasn't until i read your analasis that i realized that was Yu trying to draw a skrull. Wait... wait .... wait. I didn't read any of these but if I remember correctly... you say Elektra died and got all wrinkly... didn't the body of Steve Rogers do the same thing?? The explanation being his super soldier serum quit working and his body aged to it's true age... or are you just saying Yu's art is so bad he was trying to dry a Skrull and all that came out as wrinkles? Pathetic as it is, he really is saying the latter. I completely agree with him- it really is Yu trying to draw a Skrull but it looks VERY much like a wrinkly person at first. I'll be quite honest, it's the inker as well- I honestly did NOT know she was green at first.
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jun 16, 2007 15:22:43 GMT -5
it definately was a skrull looking back the ears kinda pointed out too, but the color wasn't very 'green' either.
The sickest thing is, There are people who adore Yu's art, and say that filling up all the open space with Ninjas is pure brilliance. yada yada yada.
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Post by Shiryu on Jun 16, 2007 18:51:44 GMT -5
By the way, did I miss it or Elektra and, perhaps, the baby are the only Skrulls so far ? Jessica looked normal to me
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Post by uberwolf on Jun 16, 2007 20:31:12 GMT -5
Why would a Skrull impersonate a baby anyway?
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Post by balok on Jun 16, 2007 22:04:23 GMT -5
Why would a Skrull impersonate a baby anyway? Misdirection. Maybe that's how they got past some of those alien detectors. Or, of course, we could remember that this is Bendis writing...
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Post by redstatecap on Jun 16, 2007 22:36:25 GMT -5
Why would a Skrull impersonate a baby anyway? It's a Skrull with a crush on Jessica Jones? RSC
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jun 17, 2007 1:24:27 GMT -5
Since I've heard Doom taking a rather negative view towards many of the old stories before, it wouldn't surprise me if he actually feels the Kree-Skrull war IS overrated but, for my money, that's a top story which makes great use of skrulls (and doppelgangers...).
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Post by The Night Phantom on Jun 17, 2007 22:23:27 GMT -5
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Post by thew40 on Jun 18, 2007 20:07:25 GMT -5
There are some interviews on Newsarama that talk about the feeling of paranoia and why some characters have been acting "off lately" that have come up over the weekend during the duel cons (Heroes [where I was] and at Philly). They're worth checking out, as they answer some questions. The Skrull's presence will apparently tie into "Annhillation."
As far as getting around the ways of detection . . . the Skrull are an advanced civilization that seems to value deception. It could be that they've had plants in the government for years - perhaps even before the detection methods were put into place. They just allowed the detection devices to lay around so as to lull everyone a false sense of security.
I'll admit my using the word "genius" was an exagerration - but if you guys are allowed to exagerate negatively, then I can exagerate positively. Right?
I'm just very much in love with this idea. I think it's great and brillant and very well-executed!
~W~
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Post by The Night Phantom on Jun 18, 2007 21:04:44 GMT -5
Why would a Skrull impersonate a baby anyway? It's a Skrull with a crush on Jessica Jones? Oh, dear. We’ve seen what happens to humans who drink Skrull milk—here’s our chance to see what happens to Skrulls who drink human milk.
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Post by scribbler357 on Jun 20, 2007 0:17:59 GMT -5
This Skrull thing is off and running at this point. IGN.com used "you're acting a bit Skrully" as one of its digest heads today.
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