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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 13, 2007 10:25:07 GMT -5
I really can't....
It's just...
What?
I'd been giving him more than benefit of the doubt. I'd been very much enjoying his storylines on this book since civil war. I'd been loving Mighty Avengers.
But sometimes, one wonders if Brian Bendis smokes weed.
New Avengers #31 is here and the "SHOCK" ending, the most shocking last page of any issue this year... is not that shocking. It will more make you say "Er... what the HELL?" than "WOW!" It's the type of retcon change I ABSOLUTELY HATE WITH A PASSION and it grates on me incredibly.
Allow me to summarise.
Jessica Jones is a Skrull.
Her baby is also a skrull.
Elektra, who was killed, is also a skrull.
So we have apparantly some sort of giant Skrull conspiracy to replace people and take over the world, with god knows how long it;s been going on for and who has been replaced.
My head hurts. You guys were right, for once.
I think I need to lie down.
WTF?
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Jun 13, 2007 11:05:58 GMT -5
Dear sweet Jesus no.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 13, 2007 11:36:02 GMT -5
For once, tone-loc my friend, I think we may be in full agreement.
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Jun 13, 2007 11:52:18 GMT -5
We've been in agreement before, it's just only lately, and seemingly only on the overall issue of the SHRA... nothing new there.
Let's just hope this is just a Skrull infiltration, and that these characters that we have known for a while actually haven't been Sckrull's the whole time. Maybe we could hold officially calling it a "retcon" until there was some editorial/author confirmation that it is. But then again, they would probably just tell us it is, just to throw us off the trail of the overall, longterm storyline.
Bah.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Jun 13, 2007 12:07:09 GMT -5
ALL YOUR BASES ARE NOW BELONG TO US!!
—The Night Skrull
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 13, 2007 12:10:42 GMT -5
^ ^ ^ ^
We've been decieved!
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Post by Engage on Jun 13, 2007 12:19:32 GMT -5
At least Johnny Storm will have some company at his weekly "My Wife Was A Skrull!" meeting.
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Post by redstatecap on Jun 13, 2007 12:35:24 GMT -5
I really can't.... It's just... What? I'd been giving him more than benefit of the doubt. I'd been very much enjoying his storylines on this book since civil war. I'd been loving Mighty Avengers. But sometimes, one wonders if Brian Bendis smokes weed. Replace "weed" with "crack" and you're on to something. Allow me to play devil's advocate as usual and point out the possibilities. It's quite possible that the Skrulls you see here are not being retconned to have "always been so," but to have replaced the originals at some point in the very recent past. Doing otherwise would mean trashing Bendis' own "Alias." While I could definitely see him merrily wrecking someone else's work with that kind of crap retcon, I could never see him wrecking his own intentionally. So (IMO) it will be revealed that Jessica and the baby were kidnapped and replaced by Skrulls for some nefarious purpose. It's hardly an inventive direction, but it seems likely. Therefore the next "big event" which has already been stated will come out of these issues could be another Skrull invasion. Yippee. Maybe it will even be a Skrull-Ninja teamup. RSC
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 13, 2007 12:47:32 GMT -5
I actuallt agree with most of what you state, RSC. (SIGN OF THE APOCALYPSE!) I further find it possible that we will have the Skrulls retconned into further back because of Bendis' implications over in Illuminati 1 but I do hope not and hope you're correct.
Actually that's not true. I hate Skrulls, hate all plot involving skrulls, find them rubbish plot devices and thus hope you're incorrect and it turns out there were no skrulls at all. But having skrulls only be doing this recently is an improvement.
I have no doubt we'll see heavy Skrull hype coming up and it will be a big focus of the 2008 crossover. I just dread it- it's as thouggh marvel WANT to lose me. First they make 2006 a year I love with what I regard as a phenomenal crossover. Then they select my least favourite major hero and base their 2007 crossover around him. Now they pick my second least favourite plot device in comics and apparantly mean to forge a crossover around them.
The only thing worse is if it turns out to be CLONES of Skrulls.
PS: RSC being positive as I be negative? ANOTHER SIGN OF THE END TIMES!
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Post by Shiryu on Jun 13, 2007 13:08:26 GMT -5
Comment #1: Comment #2: I think RSC is right... I mean, the baby definitely belongs to Jessica and Luke. Now, if she were a Skrull all the way through, he (the baby) should be some kind of human / skrull hybrid. Is there any in the MU, and do they have all the normal Skrull powers ? Also, shouldn't he have been in his true form at least at birth. I understand shapeshifting after, but not since the very moment he is born... Comment #3: Shouldn't Spidey's spider sense react to the presence of the Skrulls, no matter what aspect they have ?
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 13, 2007 13:10:13 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is suggesting the baby was ALWAYS a skrull unless I did so inadverdently.
But Spidey's spider sense is the LEAST of our worries. How the HECK did these guys pass Doctor Strange's spell to see if they were all trustworthy last issue? Is HE a skrull? Is it that they don't HAVE souls? But why did the baby appear purer than the rest if the baby is a freaking alien bent on world domination?
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Post by balok on Jun 13, 2007 13:11:06 GMT -5
To: Marvel From: Balok Re: When you reach the bottom... STOP DIGGING! Seriously. This is the big 2008 crossover event? Skrulls? I can't... I just... It's... words fail... I don't know... >sputter< it's as thouggh marvel WANT to lose me. Welcome to my world, Doc. I've saved you a chair up near the front. What are you going to do if it's Skrulls all the way down? That is, if Skrulls exploited Stamford to force superhumans into an army controlled by government men replaced by Skrulls?
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 13, 2007 13:13:31 GMT -5
If Skrulls forced Stamford to exploit superhumans and Miriam Sharpe and/or Tony Stark are retconned into being Skulls, I am retreating to the spider titles, Captain America, Fantastic Four and Thunderbolts and never ever venturing forth again.
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Post by redstatecap on Jun 13, 2007 13:16:31 GMT -5
I actuallt agree with most of what you state, RSC. (SIGN OF THE APOCALYPSE!) I further find it possible that we will have the Skrulls retconned into further back because of Bendis' implications over in Illuminati 1 but I do hope not and hope you're correct. I haven't been byrne-stealing Illuminati, so you'll have to enlighten me. Heh! They finally found something you can't get behind. Well, it was bound to happen sooner or later. I agree that Skrulls are best left to the space-faring stories where they are not used as plot devices. I resent your mistaken implication that I am being positive about Marvel and I demand a retraction. RSC
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 13, 2007 13:24:11 GMT -5
I haven't been byrne-stealing Illuminati, so you'll have to enlighten me. As far as I'm aware, the Illuminati go off and threaten the Skrulls and it's heavily implied that the Skrulls have had many sleeper cells on Earth for years. I didn't read it myself so I'm operating based on the testimony of others here... Now all we need is something you CAN, right? Indeed. It was bad when it was used in the 60s and it's worse now. But as said above, nothing has ever reached the heights of Lyja. Even Mark Waid could not use them well in Cap. I shall not retract it but I shall amend it. You were being MORE positive than me.
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Post by von Bek on Jun 13, 2007 14:39:10 GMT -5
I really can't.... It's just... What? But sometimes, one wonders if Brian Bendis smokes weed. It will more make you say "Er... what the HELL?" than "WOW!" It's the type of retcon change I ABSOLUTELY HATE WITH A PASSION and it grates on me incredibly. I think I need to lie down. WTF? At least, at least Doctor Doom will understand how most of us have been feeling since A:D!!!
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Post by balok on Jun 13, 2007 15:28:05 GMT -5
I can't honestly say the Skrulls are always disappointing. Their run-ins with the FF have yielded the occasional interesting story.
But speaking practically, an army of shapeshifters can easily conquer a planet through subterfuge if the story is told realistically. Hell, Mystique alone has extensive access to government data. I don't see how the Marvel heroes win this one unless they hamstring the Skrulls, who in addition possess superior technology (except for a few individuals, like Iron Man).
And didn't they already kind of tell this story over in Ultimates? Weren't those aliens shapeshifters? Or was it only the one guy? I can't remember.
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Post by redstatecap on Jun 13, 2007 15:30:35 GMT -5
As far as I'm aware, the Illuminati go off and threaten the Skrulls and it's heavily implied that the Skrulls have had many sleeper cells on Earth for years. I didn't read it myself so I'm operating based on the testimony of others here... Nothing surprising with the old "Skrulls use their powers of shapeshifting to infiltrate Earth" plot. *ZZZZZZZZZ........* It does make me wonder if Marvel is angling toward the long-rumored integration of the Ultimate and Main universes starting with some kind of Skrull story. (Remember Ultimates 1.) Joe Quesada, for what it's worth, said that the next couple of "big events" are designed to lead into "THE" big event in IIRC three years. lol, yes. Resurrecting Cap and un-resurrecting "Bucky" would be a nice beginning. Maybe I was just mistaken in what I thought you were saying, which was that it was being retconned that Jessica and the baby were always Skrulls. But, sheesh. Marvel's next "big event" looks to be another Skrull invasion? What are the "idea guys" being paid? RSC
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Post by Alchemist-X on Jun 13, 2007 19:05:22 GMT -5
That doesn't sound like the Doc Doom I know.....YOU'VE BEEN REPLACED BY A SKRULL HAVEN'T YOU? I thought that Elektra just died and got all wrinkly, and I wondered why the baby looked so evil, it wasn't until i read your analasis that i realized that was Yu trying to draw a skrull. and ya plot twist doesn't bode particularily well. But I now have some good theories Dead Cap - Skrull Winter Soldier - Skrull Sentry - Super Skrull Maya Lopez - Skrull Extremis - Skrull Technology James Rhodes - Skrull Tigra - Skrull Wolverine - 4 seperate Skrull impostors plus the real Wolverine is still free(Its the only way to make sense of his MU appearances)
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Post by balok on Jun 13, 2007 20:00:07 GMT -5
I can't imagine that Jessica and the baby were always Skrulls. It kind of invalidates all of Alias (and perhaps the Pulse as well - don't know, never read it). I think someone mentioned this point.
Perhaps all the Illuminati were actually Skrulls. Although one might have been a Space Phantom, who took over a Skrull, masquerading as... but that would be telling. And don't we need a Badoon or a Kree in here somewhere?!?
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Post by thew40 on Jun 13, 2007 21:28:27 GMT -5
WHOA!
In my entire time of reading comics, never before had my jaw dropped so fast!
What in the hell?! Elektra was a Skrull? What is going on here?
I expect a lot you guys hate this . . . big shocker there.
But the twist is so stunning. It's so out of left field . . . and yet, it makes perfect sense. Everything that has been going on. The break-out, the Secret War, elements of Civil War, the so-called "rotten" elements of SHIELD, Hydra, and the Hand. If you read the entire arc as a whole (as I did), it makes a lot more sense -- esspecially if you re-read the scene where Luke is talking about everything that's been going on and how someone had to have infiltrated various governments.
Well . . . here it is.
The Skrulls.
The last thing I expected. I know I'll probably lose all of my karma by saying this . . . but this was brillant.
As far as Jess and her baby goes with them being Skrulls, we'll see. I'm not sold on it, but it wouldn't shock me. It probably happened while Jess and the baby were in Canada. Or perhaps even later, as Dr. Strange did that whole "purity" spell and the baby was said to have been "pure" -- as in no deception.
I can't wait to see where this goes!
~W~
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Post by thew40 on Jun 13, 2007 22:21:59 GMT -5
I've noticed a lot of people saying just how unbelieveable this idea is. There's a quote from the review on Pop Culture Shock.com that I found very interesting . . . From www.popcultureshock.com/index.php?p=41992Makes sense, doesn't it? (In five minutes, someone is going to say "well, there's no way Bendis is that smart and merely saw an oppurtunity to dig himself out of a story he didn't have an ending to" or something like that . . . to which I say ) Genius. ~W~ (awaits bricks and negative karma)
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Post by uberwolf on Jun 14, 2007 1:00:18 GMT -5
I guess it does make sense. I wouldn't call it genius when the next big event is a Skrull invasion and the entire Marvel staff has been in on it and leading up to the Skrull crossover. I don't think I'll ever accept the words Bendis and genius in the same sentence . Pretty tricky Marvel, I think this may be d**n good story if they can pull it off. I deny you your smite and exalt you for the popcultureshock link. So there, ha ha!
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Post by imperiusrex on Jun 14, 2007 1:01:02 GMT -5
I've noticed a lot of people saying just how unbelieveable this idea is. There's a quote from the review on Pop Culture Shock.com that I found very interesting . . . From www.popcultureshock.com/index.php?p=41992Makes sense, doesn't it? (In five minutes, someone is going to say "well, there's no way Bendis is that smart and merely saw an oppurtunity to dig himself out of a story he didn't have an ending to" or something like that . . . to which I say ) Genius. ~W~ (awaits bricks and negative karma) No it's not genius. In fact it's as far away from genius as things get. Besides the fact that there's been extraterrestrial safeguards in storylines from both Busiek's Avengers and Loeb's FF, and that there are a thousand telepaths including SHIELD's own esper force, and any of a dozen other ways you would catch ET's who only take the general shape and not the brain or powers of whom they impersonate, it also makes every story irrelevant. If a year from now a story goes bad, the character was a skrull. Need to bring someone back, they were impersonated by a skrull. Any story you need to undo, there's now an out. If you need to undo all the events of Civil War, there's now an out. The skrulls have been popping up on earth in unrelated storylines for decades now, so their recent spurt of activity isn't a great skein of storytelling. I'm fairly sure they made just as many appearances when Lyja, paibok, Superskrull and the impersonators in Davis' X-Men all appeared around the same time (didn't one replace wolverine too? -so now we've got two Avengers who turned out to be skrulls...). You think it's genius and I sure hope you're not going to get all defensive because others don't. Storytelling standpoint, having duplicates around is a such a cop-out that it makes any story undoable for example, I guess Quasar isn't dead. And Pietro is a skrull. Doesn't fit into the time frame...? well they were advance agents. wanda is a skrull too, equipped with the skrull version of the cosmic cube to see if she could de-stablize the earth forces. sadly the power of the object made her think she was actually scarlet witch. I just really hate the idea of stuff like this. It just feels like marvel is grasping at straws trying to out do their big events and they're going to repeat the big bad events of their pasts. didn't I mention that eventually they were going to make a series worse than secret wars II? well with this story and the seeming return of the beyonder, I'm changing the name to nostradamus rex...
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Post by redstatecap on Jun 14, 2007 3:04:07 GMT -5
Anyone who hasn't yet browsed the issue should treat themselves to a rare gem of the writer's art. In addition to a couple of excruciating episodes of Bendis' patented banter, there are moments of stupefyingly idiotic dialogue. While fighting Cage, Electra declares "I am going to light you on fire." (That's pretty much verbatim!) After being lit on fire, Cage declares "You can't burn me. You can't hurt me." To which Electra eloquently replies "I am going to take your eyes." A third-grader could write better dialogue, people. Combined with art that makes me want to take my own eyes, this comic is truly a new low in quality. At least Bendis' prior efforts had nice-looking art to distract from the poor writing.
RSC
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 14, 2007 7:29:47 GMT -5
Have now fully read the issue and have this feedback:
-FIrst, Bendis writes good banter. Unlike most people, I have no problem with the banter. Now I do. There is a pretty funny exchange between Clint Barton and Spidey which unfortunately makes no sense. Less than an hour ago comic-time, Clint was complaining about others banterin and saying he doesn't do banter. Now what does he do more of than Spidey himself in 31? You guessed it!
-Secondly, it's people fighting ninjas. This turns me off already. But worse, it's YU drawing people fighting ninjas, which stirs in me only apathy. The sub-plot back in America was the FAR superior of the two plots, this one just bores me.
-SKRULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLSSSS!
I hope the w is right. There is SOME potential. But what this must ABSOLUTELY, AT ALL COSTS avoid is using SKrulls to retcon stories, especially civil war. Skrulls are a RIDICULOUSLY easy "out", so please please please don't let them be used for these big stories. Please GOD let there not be a mass retcon and ;let the Skrulls be gone as soon as possible.
-Beyond that, the issue is standard slightly above average Bendis fare with his usual gift for dialogue., But the art brings it down somewhat, some errors bring it down more and SKRRRRRRRRRRRUUUUUUULLLLLLLSSSSSSSS further bring it down. So overall, the worst issue of New Avengers since "The Collective". It's not awful but this issue was medioce at best. Hopefully Bendis can get back on track. Most of it I can deal with but if we're seeing loads of Skrulls, I'm worried.
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Post by balok on Jun 14, 2007 8:15:26 GMT -5
Skulls just might be Marvels "hypertime" - a way they can basically ignore continuity (yeah, I know hypertime had rules, but it didn't seem like most of the creators knew what they were or followed them, and DC seems to have basically unwritten it with their latest Crisis.)
The problem is, if all of Civil War was planned by Skrulls as a way to get control of the superhuman community, then it might be fine storytelling. [1] But if it's just something where they sat down and said "in 2008 we need some kind of mega crossover event" and someone else piped up, "What if the Skrulls invade? We can "fix" a lot of stuff, then by saying it was always Skrulls!" - well, that's NOT brilliant writing. That's not even good writing. And the problem is, we may never know which it was. Speaking for myself, Civil War so corroded my faith in Marvel's storytelling abilities that I can't trust them any longer.
Perhaps interestingly, the SHRA has been described as an allegory for some of the things that the Bush administration has done over here, that involve known violations of civil rights (and not only by fans). And Bush leaves office in early 2009 - right after Marvel's next big event. Things that make you say "hmmmmmmm."
[1] I know some folks will guess I'm saying this because it would allow me to be "right" about Civil War, and there's undoubtedly some of that in it. But most of it would be the idea that a large event, Civil War, could be part of an even larger event. It would also explain Millar's rather grand prediction that a book in 2008 would sell three quarters of a million copies of one issue.
The flip side is the issues imperiusrex raised: how come no one has detected these Skrulls? Well, no one we know about. In a world full of telepaths, not all of whom are known to the government - this seems unlikely. Even if you carefully identify who's most likely to discover you, and work to replace them first - that requires boots on the ground, and every one of them is a chance for your plan to be discovered and unravel in the early stages. With the government now in control of most superheroes, if the government is in turn controlled by Skrulls, the plan is on firmer ground and discovery may be less of a problem. Also, if there are Skrulls in the Initiative, they almost certainly have Tony's list and can isolate and destroy their most dangerous opponents with ease. But it's a little amazing that it got this far.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 14, 2007 8:42:20 GMT -5
Balok, given how strongly Millar has said that these guys in civil war were not acting due to any outside force and his pretty good track record (I can't recall him ever lying, he even up front said there'd be one or two minor hero deatsh with meaning in CW proper and no big deaths from the very start, which Marvel tried to bury) I'd say he didn't know about the Skrull thing being used for CW. But he talked about the Skrull thing recently without outright calling it such and seemed okay so I ASSUME it hasn't been retconned- or he hasn't been told.
And the book he thinks will do so insanely well is written by HIM. All reports indicate next year's mega crossover is written by everyone's favourite bald Hawkeye killer.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jun 14, 2007 8:51:13 GMT -5
NNNNNNNNNEEEEWWWWSSS uk.comics.ign.com/articles/796/796467p2.htmlMany of my fears have been assauged: "That said, I can promise you that the Civil War, and other giant events such as World War Hulk, happened - we did that to ourselves. There's not going to be a reveal later on that says, "Ohhhh!! The Skrulls were behind the Civil War!" That's just crappy writing. That's just bull****. That I can promise you. But something like Civil War, if it's an easy nudge, and the Skrulls can sit back and let us beat each other up and kill Captain America, that certainly would help them in their quest." THANK YOU BENDIS/GOD! With that aside, I THINK I can now enjoy this story. Maybe.
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Post by von Bek on Jun 14, 2007 9:34:57 GMT -5
This remainds me of the ending of A:D, when all the heroes gathered in the front of the destroyed Avengers Mansion, and many of them are later explained away as being Wanda´s creations, because they couldn´t or shouldn´t be there. Now with Skrulls we will have exactly the same thing, everyone acting out of characters will have been a Skrull all along... how is this a work of genius? And wasn´t this exactly the idea behind "The Kree-Srull War"? Skrulls infiltrating the earth and trying to descredit and destroy the superheroes? This written in 1971? So 35+ yeras later a writer is stealing Roy Thomas ideas and it´s a work of genius? The mind boggles...
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