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Post by imperiusrex on Aug 30, 2006 15:19:58 GMT -5
The Avengers in the 50's-the wedding issue of #60 had some strange things going on -- Jarvis as the Crimson Cowl, Hank flipping out, the Vision introduced... Important period of Avengers history, but some rapid-fire weirdness if you ask me. exactly. so much was happening that a lot is really not covered. why let the vision join? didn't he just try to kill everybody? what marriage would possibly stand given the groom was obviously not of sound mind? wouldn't it be great if we could see some character stuff that might influence future readers that Hank Pym isn't just a crazy wife beater who lets everyone in the world take the Pym particles...(I mean, you might wanna keep a slightly tighter rein on 'em-I bought two cannisters in bulk at costco.)
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Post by von Bek on Aug 31, 2006 12:23:18 GMT -5
The Avengers in the 50's-the wedding issue of #60 had some strange things going on -- Jarvis as the Crimson Cowl, Hank flipping out, the Vision introduced... Important period of Avengers history, but some rapid-fire weirdness if you ask me. exactly. so much was happening that a lot is really not covered. why let the vision join? didn't he just try to kill everybody? what marriage would possibly stand given the groom was obviously not of sound mind? wouldn't it be great if we could see some character stuff that might influence future readers that Hank Pym isn't just a crazy wife beater who lets everyone in the world take the Pym particles...(I mean, you might wanna keep a slightly tighter rein on 'em-I bought two cannisters in bulk at costco.) I disagree here, at least in part. Trying to 'force' those end-tail of the Silver Age/beggining of the Bronze Age stories to make more sense and look 'deeper' into the characters motivations may destroy them. The Avengers let the Vision join after he tried to kill them because he redeemed himself defeating Ultron and saved the team. And the last image, an android crying, is a powerful one. If Casey will try to explain the situation it will probably lose part of the magic. About the wedding, at the end of the issue Jan said she looked it up and the marriage would be still legal (at least in the MU). The magic of that story is that a cocky and overconfident new comer (Yellowjacket) claiming to have killed Hank Pym, still presents himself as a hero and wants Jan and an Avenger membership. The Avengers couls do nothing because no body was found (Thomas made that clear). And, in the end, YJ is Hank Pym. A writer trying to elaborate on that will fail and, again, make the original story lose part of its charm...
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 31, 2006 12:30:18 GMT -5
Points well made -- very valid, but I'm still going to give it a look-see. The art looks beautiful, and the classic line-up has me excited.
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Post by imperiusrex on Aug 31, 2006 13:18:51 GMT -5
exactly. so much was happening that a lot is really not covered. why let the vision join? didn't he just try to kill everybody? what marriage would possibly stand given the groom was obviously not of sound mind? wouldn't it be great if we could see some character stuff that might influence future readers that Hank Pym isn't just a crazy wife beater who lets everyone in the world take the Pym particles...(I mean, you might wanna keep a slightly tighter rein on 'em-I bought two cannisters in bulk at costco.) I disagree here, at least in part. Trying to 'force' those end-tail of the Silver Age/beggining of the Bronze Age stories to make more sense and look 'deeper' into the characters motivations may destroy them. The Avengers let the Vision join after he tried to kill them because he redeemed himself defeating Ultron and saved the team. And the last image, an android crying, is a powerful one. If Casey will try to explain the situation it will probably lose part of the magic. About the wedding, at the end of the issue Jan said she looked it up and the marriage would be still legal (at least in the MU). The magic of that story is that a cocky and overconfident new comer (Yellowjacket) claiming to have killed Hank Pym, still presents himself as a hero and wants Jan and an Avenger membership. The Avengers couls do nothing because no body was found (Thomas made that clear). And, in the end, YJ is Hank Pym. A writer trying to elaborate on that will fail and, again, make the original story lose part of its charm... well I dunno about that. Peter David made the Hulk far more interesting by going back to the origin in many ways and establishing the whole abuse pattern that was underlying. Does the original Hulk story lose any charm for me, at least? No. Do I have a different understanding, one that enriches the character for me? Yes. Is that for everybody? I suppose not. However the problem I see is that those stories are continually referenced in current marvel logic and they are expanded on in every issue where these characters appear. Much of current Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne characterization is wholly based on these very compressed stories which leaves the Bendis and Austen types free rein to thrown in their less than sterling representations. Perhaps having a Joe Casey go in and enrich with small details that some writers can look to will make it better for future representations (and make no mistake, Joe knows his Avengers and cares about them). I dunno, i just see the cr@p Marvel continually tosses at some of my favorite characters and it's nice to see a writer who wants to flesh out their greatness. (oh and I don't know what law texts Roy was reading, but in my old prelaw days, I seem to recall and am fairly sure you could at least arrest someone when they confessed to several persons about commiting murder, even without a body...if nothing else, YJ would've been brought in for questioning and unmasked which admittedly would've made the story a lot shorter...)
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Post by von Bek on Aug 31, 2006 13:36:22 GMT -5
well I dunno about that. Peter David made the Hulk far more interesting by going back to the origin in many ways and establishing the whole abuse pattern that was underlying. If memory serves, Bill Mantlo was the one that introduced the abusive father in Banner´s history, and yes, in that case to make it more interesting. Is that for everybody? I suppose not. However the problem I see is that those stories are continually referenced in current marvel logic and they are expanded on in every issue where these characters appear. Much of current Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne characterization is wholly based on these very compressed stories which leaves the Bendis and Austen types free rein to thrown in their less than sterling representations. Yes, those writers don´t see a pattern and elaborate on it like Shooter or Moore, they just trash the characters because didn´t understand what the original stories were telling. Perhaps having a Joe Casey go in and enrich with small details that some writers can look to will make it better for future representations (and make no mistake, Joe knows his Avengers and cares about them). I dunno, i just see the cr@p Marvel continually tosses at some of my favorite characters and it's nice to see a writer who wants to flesh out their greatness. Agree with you about Marvel thrashing some of my favourites... (oh and I don't know what law texts Roy was reading, but in my old prelaw days, I seem to recall and am fairly sure you could at least arrest someone when they confessed to several persons about commiting murder, even without a body...if nothing else, YJ would've been brought in for questioning and unmasked which admittedly would've made the story a lot shorter...) well, it was the 1968 Marvel Universe, not today´s MU, where everybody gets unmasked...
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Post by imperiusrex on Aug 31, 2006 16:48:34 GMT -5
You're likely right that Mantlo introduced the element. I seem to remember a story from his era where Bruce is trapped in his own mind and is in conflict with his abusive father. However I think Peter really made it into what it is; a major force and explanation for much of Bruce's behavior.
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