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Post by Van Plexico on Oct 30, 2005 13:50:46 GMT -5
Tell me how I'm wrong.
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Oct 30, 2005 14:46:25 GMT -5
I've got to be honest, bought it till number 4 or 5... then managed to read here and there from friends copies. Oh lord, if i'd payed for the thing i'd be really pissed. I think i'm actually missing Chuck Austen and that's just plain sad. And dear lord - To Think Roger Stern has been unemployed (in comics) for years (to end though, he's doing something for DC with Byrne i think.) There's just so much not to like, the wrong members, the misscharacterization of the few right ones remaining, the constant silly BENDIS! banter of Spidey-Wolverine-IronMan, no team whatsoever, nonsensical 'enemies', oh boy. And that conversation between Cap sensing Spider-Woman is into something, has the dialoguing quality of a daytime soap opera... But hey, it sells.
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Post by Adrian J. Watts on Oct 30, 2005 15:29:40 GMT -5
My internal conflict, as written by BENDIS!: "Crap, crap and crap." "Adrian." "Crap." "What do you think of NuVengers?" "It's crap. A lot. A lot of crap. Why do you ask?" "Because I am you, and I like to know what you think. Me." "Crap." "And I am you, after all." "Don't remind me. That's crap." "You bought it anyway?" "I'm a completist. A completist dying on the inside from crappy storytelling and almost equally crappy art." "Why would you be dying on the inside?" "I'm dying on the inside?" "No." "Where am I dying then? Crap?" "You're not dying. You're just reading New Avengers. And I want you to join my crack team of BENDIS! lovers." "You do? Why?" "What do you say?" "I'm... I'm telling you what I say. Why?" "How is that working our for you? The 'telling me what you say' thing?" "Well..." "Every time I have thought alongside you..." "Really?" "Good man." "Crap." That made me feel sick. Seriously, I have read a great deal of stuff by BENDIS! and dislike it all. Add to that that David Finch's artwork is quite possibly the worst Marvel art I have ever seen (not to mention WRONG half the time - if you see the BENDIS! board, you can see how many times he's drawn the wrong characters), and you have a pretty awful experience. Breakout made NO sense to me whatsoever. The Vault still exists, but the authorities move people from there to a prison RIGHT NEXT TO A CITY, that rather than needing the biggest villain team-up ever to break out from, has security that can be compromised by Electro. Electro. Electro! Electro can get past this supposedly top-notch secure prison, but Iron Man can beat him in one panel, from a distance, without Electro even seeing him? What? And then it turns out... SAVAGE LAND MUTATES PAID ELECTRO TO FREE SAURON? What the hell? What did they pay him with - fig leaf loincloths? And since when can Sauron breathe fire? (More on that at the end of the post.) Not only is that all CRAP, but the Avengers don't even beat Sauron - ROGUE SHIELD AGENTS DO. And we don't have any idea who they are or why they are rogue. Why would BENDIS! explain it, when it is going to be explained later in a book that is already two months late? The Sentry arc was just as bad. The Avengers unite to fight a foe no single hero could withstand... unless it is Emma Frost. She can apparently fight any threat on her own, or with the help of the threat's wife. Even then, when she says it is vital from the threat's wife to be there, the threat's wife does nothing. At all. And there is NO continuinty between the Sentry arc and the Sentry mini. None at all. Now... Ronin. THE MYSTERY REVEALED! What d**n mystery? Unless you go to the BENDIS! forum, you had no idea that a character named Ronin was going to appear until he/she/it actually appeared. What kinda mystery is that? And besides... who cares who Ronin is? We have been given no reason to care. And the freakin' SILVER SAMURAI, for God's sake! He's DEAD. DEAD. (And a hero now, but we're all meant to forget that.) Kitry Pryde killed him a month ago. But still, he appears here. And in Wolverine. But then again, there were dead villains on "The Raft". It's like Mister Hyde - in two months our time/one week Marvel time, he was beaten and captured by the Avengers, Daredevil, the Young Avengers and the Thunderbolts. There are other villains, aren't there? d**n I hate BENDIS!' work. I hate it all soooo much. However, as much as the Nuvengers may have nothing in common with the REAL Avengers, they're still, technically, the Avengers in-continuity. I have confidence that one day, when BENDIS! is gone, someone will take over and the book will be much better (it can't be any worse). The Avengers may yet be the Avengers again. (Apparently some "old favourites" return in #15, although knowing Bendis it'll be those members we're all to "f**ked" to remember... like the Black Cat and the Super Skrull...) GAH! Now, the ninjas... I have no issue with Avengers vs. ninjas per se, but the Hand, a threat to Cap or Iron Man? Not buying it. If Iron Man can just wrap Electro in an energy field and end the fight, he can do it to a ninja. And Cap has kicked ninja ass more than once before. Sure, maybe Luke Cage would have a problem, but not Cap. Stupid BENDIS!. - Adrian The Sauron-fire problem - HE CAN'T BREATHE FIRE. Well, he can, 'cause he did, but not before New Avengers. Bendis did NOT see it earlier, 'cause it never happened. I can forgive that, but I can't stand how he lies about it. When asked in which issue it happened, he said "I just looked it up. It happened." If that were true, he could easily have said where and shut everyone up. Goodness, if you're crap, just admit it. Lying only makes things worse... Grrrrr....
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Post by Van Plexico on Oct 31, 2005 17:43:13 GMT -5
That was awesome, Adrian! Outstanding. Just this vast gush of anti-BENDIS!-ism. Fantastic.
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Post by Shiryu on Nov 3, 2005 10:54:04 GMT -5
I haven't read any issue of the new avengers yet but just a lot of summaries online. I'm not too bothered by the team membership (or at least by part of it) since I'm a Spiderman fan as well, but I strongly miss the classic story arcs and members, especially after the Busiek period that I loved. Also, from what I've read around, Bendis characterization is a lot off. Hope that one day things will go back to how they were... Ps, hi all, this is my first topic here
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Post by Van Plexico on Nov 3, 2005 16:07:38 GMT -5
For my feelings on the NEW AVENGERS, check out my article they just published over at RevolutionSF.com. They left off my last paragraph--probably a wise move, on their part, considering they are a nice, professional site-- which basically said, "If all Marvel cares about is making money, and not about the characters and histories, then why don't they just publish porn?" Here's the article: www.revolutionsf.com/article.html?id=2840 --Van
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Post by captparamedic on Nov 3, 2005 18:24:04 GMT -5
Actually, I read the fight with the ninjas in the same vein as The Tick's "Night of the Million Billion Ninjas." Thats what it looked like to me, especially when they were arriving and leaving the penthouse. The art looked almost the same as I remember from Edlund. However, I am not really enjoying Bendis' run on Avengers so far. Disassembled was horrible and his run on Avengers isn't much better.
James W. Hooper "Captain Paramedic"
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Post by dngillikin on Nov 3, 2005 20:41:58 GMT -5
"We are a hedge. Move along, we are a hedge." ;D
-Donald So, does that make Ronin Oedipus?
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Chris
Force Works-er
Posts: 15
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Post by Chris on Nov 3, 2005 21:45:08 GMT -5
Okay, I admit, the ninjas were a little... odd, but I'm enjoying the storytelling otherwise. Bendis' writing makes me come back for more, no matter how infuriating it can be (Disassembled). It's not the best Avengers run I've ever read, but it's far from the worst. Maybe I'm just a lot more patient than most people. I know that we'll start seeing the classic Avengers sooner or later, and I really hope Bendis has something special cooked up for #16 (a new kooky quartet would make me giddy).
Of course, I still read my old Avengers issues with glee. Especially Stern, Englehart, and Busiek.
Nice to see this site finally got its own board!
Thanks Chris
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curt
Great Lakes Avenger
Posts: 30
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Post by curt on Nov 5, 2005 20:41:07 GMT -5
Being a fan I keep coming back too. But Ninjas?
And I doubt that they would give Cage a hard time at all Adrian. Daredevil apparently. Electra maybe, but the Avengers Assembled?
Wide spread repulsor rays coupled w/ Cap's shield, a mass of webbing and venom blasts w/ the assembled team. Where's the battle? Luke steps up and bops the few that were missed on the head. End of story.
I've yet to see a foe worthy of this team. What are they avenging?
I don't like them, but there they are and they are all we got- except for the Young Avengers. give them something to work up a sweat please...
curt
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Post by Adrian J. Watts on Nov 5, 2005 23:42:23 GMT -5
Ninjas? Not give Cage a hard time? You're dreamin, Curt! Cage has no agility whatsoever - I'm not suggesting the ninjas could actually DEFEAT him (after all, no matter how many times they hit him with their scrawny little feet and weapons, he ain't going down), but Cage would not be able to defeat THEM, either, as they would quite probably just keep out of his way.
"Daredevil apparently"? Have I missed something?
- Adrian
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Post by captparamedic on Nov 24, 2005 7:49:43 GMT -5
I was just rethinking this issue the other night. Now, the Avengers haven't squared off against Ninjas in the last 4 decades or so, but why not now? I'm not defending Bendis here, but one of the things that has been mentioned is the lack of continuity in the MU as a whole in the last few years and a desire to see a return to a little bit stricter contiuity. In light of that, isn't it logical that at some point in the last 40 years, that the Avengers have ONE fight in the Ninja friendly MU? The Hand is supposed to be a large organization. Wolverine, Cap and I think Spider-man have all had run ins with them before. Iron Man has had his own run in with Ninas at one point (Master's of Silence?). I am not sure about Cage or Jessica Drew. Its not outside the realm of possibility that the Avengers happen to have a run in with some Ninjas at some point. Now, the Ninjas may not realise that they are outgunned by attacking the Avengers, but we all know that a flock (gaggle? swarm? mob?) of ninjas has stunningly low common sense. Having the Avengers square off with a low level threat like Ninjas is no different than Spider-man (a low powered hero) squaring off with the occasional cosmically powered foe Firelord, Thanos etc..)
Captain Paramedic
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Post by medinnus on Nov 30, 2005 8:24:01 GMT -5
Ninjas? Not give Cage a hard time? You're dreamin, Curt! Cage has no agility whatsoever - I'm not suggesting the ninjas could actually DEFEAT him (after all, no matter how many times they hit him with their scrawny little feet and weapons, he ain't going down), but Cage would not be able to defeat THEM, either, as they would quite probably just keep out of his way. Actually, given that they probably couldn't do much to him with their usual weapons, and given that they couldn't withstand one Cage fist, he'd essentially defeat them over time, in detail. Faster if he ever paid attention to the Iron Fist Training Sessions (tm). Sing with me... "One little two little three little Ninjas, four little five little six little Ninjas...."
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Post by wunderr on Jan 2, 2006 1:23:43 GMT -5
Ninjas. THEN: Over in a Jim Lee drawn flashback issue of X-Men, from the early 90's.... A green Cap and the non clawed Wolverine from the early 40's defeated a horde of the Hand.
NOW: Oh crap! Ninjas! We need help, Daredevil...(Daredevil?!?)... do you know anyone who is sneaky? I mean other than the Hydra trained Spider-Woman? Or Wolverine (he used to be stealthy... remember? before he was an icon?) Or Spider-Man?
Cool! It's a person Cap doesn't know, but will expect everyone to accept because he vouches for him..er..her.
Bendis gives me hope. Apparently any idiot can write comics.
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Post by bobc on Feb 24, 2006 17:38:01 GMT -5
I agree with Van and others here. For the first time in 25 years I have stopped collecting The Avengers. Bendis has done something no other bad writer has managed to do to my favorite superhero group: he's destroyed the Avenger's identity.
The Avengers are dead, folks. This New Avengers is a marketing ploy and nothing more and anybody who doesn't see that is either extremely naive or not very bright.
Bendis is the most over-rated hack ever in comics. I've seen better dialogue in porn videos, he has no clue what any of the characters are about, he has no respect for their history, and his "stories" are an incoherent mess. There's nothing even remotely interesting about this book--it's as deep as a wading pool.
I've heard that Bendis, with his usual class, likened writing the New Avengers to "taking a huge dump." I certainly couldn't have said it better myself. At least he's honest.
Let's be frank: I have read every issue of Avengers ever written, and there have been a lot of really really bad writers at different points, but at least people were honest and said they sucked. Benids on the other hand, seems to be adored no matter how bad he sucks. And I don't want to hear anything about readers needing to be more patient--it's been two frikkin years AND NOTHING'S HAPPENED!!!! Issue after issue after issue plods along at glacial speed, as one dreary talking head panel after talking head panel drones on.
For the first time in 25 years, I have almost stopped buying Marvel altogether. Just 4 years ago I was ranting and raving that Marvel was in a renaissance, and it was--and now suddenly BAM--almost nothing is worth buying anymore with the exception of Millar's stellar work.
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jkemble
Reservist Avenger
the Cosmic Frog
Posts: 243
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Post by jkemble on Nov 20, 2006 22:51:59 GMT -5
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BigDuke
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 136
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Post by BigDuke on Nov 21, 2006 10:50:35 GMT -5
Looks like we get more Ninjas in February. Yippee.
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Post by redstatecap on Nov 21, 2006 11:34:10 GMT -5
Not more Ninjas! But at least we get more Man-Suit Ronin. lol
RSC
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 21, 2006 12:00:31 GMT -5
I despair. I mean, this seems further evidence of Bendis' belief that when not written by him, a crossover is meaningless. Having been forced to take part in CW, he writes real Avengers horribly and devotes issues to his favourites. (I suppoose we're lucky we didn't get 5 issues on whose side Luke Cage is on)
But this just beggars relief. The super-team he WRITES about, the focus of his entire book, are literally torn apart. They have to reform with a different membership, a new base, totally new conditions, new ideas and opened woinds.
So it makes perfect sense that in his first (besides NA26) New Avengers post-civil war, he decides to focus on Ronin. One gets the feeling he was forbidden to bring Ronin into CW and became hellbent on atoning for that.
Because y'know, the Avengers who are the focus of CW by far shouldn't really reflect it much, yet should absoloutely be hugely affected by the House of M aftermath!
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Post by bobc on Nov 21, 2006 12:02:35 GMT -5
I want all ninjas, all the time.
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Post by Black Knight on Nov 21, 2006 14:29:40 GMT -5
You know it is really sad but I think NA 26 will be my last Avengers comic in over 25 years. I will look at Mighty Avengers but doubt I will buy it.
The sad thing is I am looking forward to Omega Flight, yep that is right, I am looking forward to the comic that has all the second string version of Cap and Thor, and Second string charaters like Julia Carpenter (spider-woman), talisman and Guardian. It is written by Oeming, who has proven he cares about the charaters and it is looking like it will have a more classic feel. Two Avengers comics that will be on the market and this huge avengers fan will be getting Omega Flight, what has happened to the world.
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Post by balok on Nov 21, 2006 17:04:08 GMT -5
I have no plans to purchase Mighty Avengers, and I have discontinued New Avengers. It won't help; nothing will change until Bendis gets tired of writing the books, or someone fires first Quesada and then Bendis (and that's not going to happen while sales are still high).
One hopes they have the common decency to relaunch the book at that point, rather than continuing the New Avengers numbering.
I remember thinking, when Heroes Rebored ended, that I had seen the worst the Avengers would ever be. Gotta be careful tempting fate like that.
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Post by dlw66 on Nov 21, 2006 20:51:54 GMT -5
But the positive thing about Heroes Reborn ending was that we got Volume III and a very nice run by not only Busiek/Perez, but a few other talented creators. Hopefully this bottoming-out will be followed by a similar peak.
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Post by Tana Nile on Nov 22, 2006 16:49:48 GMT -5
I've finally decided to stop being part of the problem and drop New Avengers from my pull list. My desire for a complete collection no longer outweighs my ability to stomach this crap. The thought of having Ninjas, and man-suited Ronin, back in the fore front of Avengers just irritates me to no end. This is not Daredevil!
I'll give Mighty a try, but I have no real hopes for it either. It just feels like the Avengers have really been dead since the whole A:D debacle. Comics being cyclical, I know that Bendis' and Quesada's stranglehold can't last forever. Maybe in a few years we can just kind of forget the whole New Avengers run, ala Heroes Reborn.
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Post by uberwolf on Nov 22, 2006 18:43:58 GMT -5
This is so sad. It's like attending a funeral. If I had any NA books I'd dig a hole in the back yard and bury them. I've had novels that were so bad I couldn't finish them... that hack fromD&D, R.A.Salvator or whateverhisnameis. I tried to read one of his books and couldn't get halfway through it, terrible. I use the pages to start my BBQ with.
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Post by redstatecap on Nov 22, 2006 22:32:49 GMT -5
Good to see you be proactive, Tananile. It won't happen any other way. I bought NA 1-15, unfortunately, so I was part of the problem for a while too. Woulda quit at #13, but I like Frank Cho. I probably won't trash them, though they deserve it. I did literally give away HoM #1-5, it was so bad.
RSC
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Post by thew40 on Nov 23, 2006 10:33:50 GMT -5
I'm still going to be buying it! I love this book! Wheeee! ~W~
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 23, 2006 13:50:28 GMT -5
Call it stubborn indifference to the quality of what I'm buying but I will be getting Mighty Avengers and depending on the line-up, probably NA as well.
Guess I'm part of the problem but I like to think I'm a bigger person than to be driven off my joint favourite super team by some cheap hack.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Nov 23, 2006 16:25:25 GMT -5
But if never, ever, enough people like you & I grow tired of giving our money (& hence our support) to such a cheap hack, how is this situation ever gonna change, Doom...? Then all we've left with is the hope that someday he'll feel like leaving the title on his own, but the feeling I get from reading the interview's with said cheap hack & his EIC is that he plans to keep gutting the Avengers for a very LOOONG time!
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 23, 2006 16:28:33 GMT -5
Maybe so, but knowing the current administration at marvel, declining sales would just be a sign that it was time to do another big avengers event to heat things up- and it would work. And the last thing I want to do is propel Bendis to writing even BIGGER 616 things. As I saidI have bought an Avengers book every month since I picked up my first one in the 90s, and there is no way in Hell I'm going to stop just because some moron seems to be doing everything in his power to make said book unreadable. I'm an Avengers fan, I'm in there for good times and bad, and sooner or later this reign of terror will come to an end and I will be rewarded for my sheer, mind-boggling stubbornness
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