Completists -- Read

[redstatecap]

The issue of completism has been kicked about on the boards lately. I ran across this yesterday and I believe it is highly relevant to the topic. I'd like you to read this. If you have any doubt at all how Marvel makes its decisions, this will lay it to rest:
This is from a web Q&A session with Joe Quesada.
Question: "As a longtime fan of the Avengers -- and a fairly vocal opponent of Bendis' version of the series -- why should I have any reason to look forward to "Mighty Avengers?" Obviously New Avengers is selling well, but just as obviously there's a segment of the audience that doesn't like it -- why not launch the new book with someone who's not as polarizing?"
OK, this is a reasonably representative opinion of a lot of people online, including this board.

Mr. Quesada's Answer: "I get it, you don't like Bendis, that's cool, you've made it pretty clear across the 'net that you feel that way. That said, New Avengers under Bendis is arguably the best-selling comic in the entire industry. So, while fandom is divided on almost every single thing done by every single publisher, judging by the popularity of New Avengers, they're not really all that divided on this issue. And yes, while we could launch as second title with someone who is less polarizing for you, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who is going to have boatloads of people running to their retailers to purchase this title than Bendis and Frank Cho."

There you are, completists. Absolute proof of how Marvel views your decision. They do not care what is said about the title. If it's selling at level "X", then it's a success and everything else is irrelevant. Marvel listens to sales, period! If you are complaining about New Avengers, but still buying the product, you are part of the problem every bit as much as Bendis himself is part of the problem.
I GUARANTEE you -- if all people that dislike Bendis' work, yet purchase it from completists compulsion, worked up the guts to drop the title, Marvel would take notice! New Avengers would (IMO) probably lose at least 25% of it's sales. That, and only that, will convince Marvel that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Until then, Marvel is going to laugh in your face as they take your money.
Take that step, people. It will never happen otherwise.

RSC

[imperiusrex]

co-sign on it.
and may I add, if you're spending money on something you don't like, instead of trying/buying a new book, you're making it harder for those new talents who might someday take the Avengers back to glory to get their foot in the door...
so you're not only supporting Bendis, you're keeping others from replacing him.

[dlw66]

Excellent points. And Quesada's tone was very similar to Mr. Bendis' in the press announcement/interview about the new book. "Go ahead and read your classic stuff..." was basically what he said.

[Ultron]

It's pretty clear that at some point in the last years, the movie division sent orders from above to make the publishing division profitable at all costs. Immideatly the reboots, revamps, tsunamis, crossovers, scandals, alternate covers began.

We're right in the middle of it, too, Avengers are wolverine, spidey and palls; Spider-man's got tentacles and reveals it's identity; BENDIS! shrieks from the top of the hills that'll kill everyone and ressurrect them; Joe Mad assaults again since the 90's in Ultimates Manga; Joe Q announces he has a plasma in the crapper and everyweek claims in Newsarama the worlds going to die and the internet break in two.

It's also pretty clear that Marvel's comics are now just movie embryos, the "books" are there only to potentially start some crap ass movie that will make MARVEL ENTERTAINMENT some more millions, and thus, all books have hollywood figures trying to break through; heck, Warren Ellis had the nerve to tell long term fans to ipcis verbis: "F**k off" and assume he's only writing comics to try and get into TV (funnily enough, he's still writing comics, i guess his "talent" got in the way of getting the job he wanted).

It's all about $ $ $ $ $ $.

I wonder if in 5 years, when the whole comics movie craze goes away like all movie crazed trends went before, if there'll be anything left to save.

[von Bek]

This proves that the problem at Marvel is the editorial board. When the editor in chief tells the readership that what they think of the product marvel´s delievering don´t matter, in a "shut up and buy it, fanboy" attitude, I can only assume we are living in the Bizarro world now...
How I miss Jim Shooter as EiC...

[redstatecap]

The worst part of the situation is that when Marvel tells its fanboys to "Shut the f*ck up. You'll buy our product and like it," a lot of fanboys do exactly that.
d**n, comics must be a great business to be in, where you can produce a crap product, tell the customer to like it, and also tell him to f*ck off and go read back issues if he doesn't, and the customer still buys it. Man, I'm in the wrong line of work!

RSC

[jkemble]

...but Marvel has always said:
"vote with your wallet." admitting that the cash was the reason they are in the buisness, which makes since i guess because money is what allows Marvel to paper, ink and staff. I guess without money, there would be no Marvel.
Personally, I think that their logic is solid, motivated by cash to sell the largest number of books to the highest amount of consumers. seed the market for later Marvel zombies. I think the industry needs this to survive, especially now days with so much other entertainment oppertunities and stiff compitition.
Now, I'm not a huge Bendis fan, my favorite Avengers stuff is Roy Thomas Kang stuff, but I have read almost all the Avengers stuff (quit in the late 90's, circa "The Crossing" and started again with Bendis' run). Yes, I'm pretty old. One thing I have to give to the current Marvel direction is that they are upsetting the status quo, just like Roy did back in the late 70's when he married Vision to the Scarlet Witch.
Bendis' run will end. fer sure, and if you want it to end sooner, quit buying it and convince all y'r friends to boycott the book. That's all Marvel is doing, like any other buisness, pay the bills and keep the doors open. I'm pretty sure there are very few fan-hateing millionaires in the hallowed halls of Marvel.
or, as my pappy used to tell me: "It's about the money, don't take it personal." - J's pappy

[redstatecap]

jkemble said:

...but Marvel has always said:
"vote with your wallet." admitting that the cash was the reason they are in the buisness, which makes since i guess because money is what allows Marvel to paper, ink and staff. I guess without money, there would be no Marvel.
Personally, I think that their logic is solid, motivated by cash to sell the largest number of books to the highest amount of consumers. seed the market for later Marvel zombies. I think the industry needs this to survive, especially now days with so much other entertainment oppertunities and stiff compitition.
Now, I'm not a huge Bendis fan, my favorite Avengers stuff is Roy Thomas Kang stuff, but I have read almost all the Avengers stuff (quit in the late 90's, circa "The Crossing" and started again with Bendis' run). Yes, I'm pretty old. One thing I have to give to the current Marvel direction is that they are upsetting the status quo, just like Roy did back in the late 70's when he married Vision to the Scarlet Witch.
Bendis' run will end. fer sure, and if you want it to end sooner, quit buying it and convince all y'r friends to boycott the book. That's all Marvel is doing, like any other buisness, pay the bills and keep the doors open. I'm pretty sure there are very few fan-hateing millionaires in the hallowed halls of Marvel.
or, as my pappy used to tell me: "It's about the money, don't take it personal." - J's pappy

Don't think that I'm not a Capitalist because I'm lambasting the way Marvel is handling this. Marvel should make money. That's cool.
However, there are some false premises here which Marvel is promulgating:
1)That an Avengers book by a different voice than Bendis would not be a financial success. This is false.
2)That the large majority of Avengers fans are satisfied with the current product and thus there is no money to be gained by producing an Avengers book outside Bendis. This is also false.
In my opinion, a lot of the real bread-and-butter Avengers fans are incredibly pissed off right now, while the fans that are being served by Bendis are the lemmings who will buy anything by a "hot writer" but will probably not turn into lifetime Avengers purchasers. In other words, Marvel may be cashing now in with cheap gimmicks geared towards hype/trendy buyers, but they are costing themselves tremendously in the long term due to alienating the older fanbase, and not doing anything to create a new long term fanbase. Do you believe that the people paying mainly to see Wolverine and/or Spider-Man are going to be buying the title in 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? Is anyone going to look back fondly in 20 years on the "Ronin" arc, or the "Collective" arc? NO! If Marvel is around in 20 years, this era will be seen as the blight that it is.
Another word to completists: drop this title. It may be painful, but you owe it to yourselves. And when you see the monthly sales figures come out, remind yourself that there is 1 less number on the list and $3 less in Marvel's pocket.

RSC

[von Bek]

jkemble said:

...but Marvel has always said:
"vote with your wallet." admitting that the cash was the reason they are in the buisness, which makes since i guess because money is what allows Marvel to paper, ink and staff. I guess without money, there would be no Marvel.

Sorry, but comics are at a low point now, 25 years ago the average Marvel book was selling waaaay better than the 'success' NA.

jkemble said:

...Now, I'm not a huge Bendis fan, my favorite Avengers stuff is Roy Thomas Kang stuff, but I have read almost all the Avengers stuff (quit in the late 90's, circa "The Crossing" and started again with Bendis' run). Yes, I'm pretty old. One thing I have to give to the current Marvel direction is that they are upsetting the status quo, just like Roy did back in the late 70's when he married Vision to the Scarlet Witch.

Wasn´t Englehart that married Vizh and Wanda?

jkemble said:

...Bendis' run will end. fer sure, and if you want it to end sooner, quit buying it and convince all y'r friends to boycott the book. That's all Marvel is doing, like any other buisness, pay the bills and keep the doors open. I'm pretty sure there are very few fan-hateing millionaires in the hallowed halls of Marvel.
or, as my pappy used to tell me: "It's about the money, don't take it personal." - J's pappy

well, it is bout the money, but they´re not very good even at making money, see the sales 20, 30 or 40 years ago...

[balok]

It seems to surprise people that Marvel pays more attention to sales than they do to people griping on the Internet. Surely people must be aware that they're in business to make money?

There was a big ballyhoo about whether campaign finance contributions should be more limited, and some folks said no because sending money to support a candidate was political speech and therefore protected by the Constitution.

Well, paying Marvel for a book you don't like is speech, too. And they've got a lot of people doing that, and they've got a lot of people griping. Which kind of speech is louder in their ears?

I have a lot of issues of Avengers - they go back below 100 of volume 1 (although not all are in mint condition). So the decision to leave New Avengers is a hard one. On the other hand, if I keep telling Marvel in the only way they really listen to that the book is okay with me, well, I really don't have anything to complain about.

Quesada put on his prick suit before he made these comments but what he says is how it has been, how it is, and how it will be, no matter who the EiC or creators are. Nobody wants to think the industries that support their hobbies are businesses but they are. Every once in awhile you run across someone who actually does treat his hobby supporting business as a hobby and not a business. I've seen it in game stores and I've seen it in comic book stores and even general hobby stores. Then one day you run over to pick up something and the door is locked, for good.

[jkemble]

...it's a sad thing.
but, yes, I see the dilemma better now, it's about the long box.
so, here's a solution: quit buying the titles you wish to boycott. then, when you can't take it no more, or Bendis finally gets the boot, rush out and buy the back issues.
I remember my glorious collecting days of youth, going from comic shop to comic shop, and that was before the internet! the chase is the fun part!
and if Bendis is as crappy as everyone says, the back issues should be common and cheap, so maybe even save some money for bag and boards.
but, the risk is that if Bendis is as popular as Joe Q likes to believe, well, you might have to shell out an extra buck or two. try it, I double dog dare you. see how far you can get. maybe start a forum and see who goes the longest. then you could all share the anxieties of sudden withdraw together. try it, it might work.

of course, Steve Englehart, that's the guy I was thinking of, the Celestial Madonna saga. I love it when Kang encounters Kang in the garden for the first time. I'll never forget that. My favorite Roy Thomas was the Serpent Crown Affair. It had everything, or, was that Roy? hmmm, gettin' kinda old here...

[imperiusrex]

jkemble said:

...it's a sad thing.
but, yes, I see the dilemma better now, it's about the long box.
so, here's a solution: quit buying the titles you wish to boycott. then, when you can't take it no more, or Bendis finally gets the boot, rush out and buy the back issues.
I remember my glorious collecting days of youth, going from comic shop to comic shop, and that was before the internet! the chase is the fun part!
and if Bendis is as crappy as everyone says, the back issues should be common and cheap, so maybe even save some money for bag and boards.
but, the risk is that if Bendis is as popular as Joe Q likes to believe, well, you might have to shell out an extra buck or two. try it, I double dog dare you. see how far you can get. maybe start a forum and see who goes the longest. then you could all share the anxieties of sudden withdraw together. try it, it might work.

of course, Steve Englehart, that's the guy I was thinking of, the Celestial Madonna saga. I love it when Kang encounters Kang in the garden for the first time. I'll never forget that. My favorite Roy Thomas was the Serpent Crown Affair. It had everything, or, was that Roy? hmmm, gettin' kinda old here...

the funny thing is bendis issues (the non-variant covers) will be quite cheap. y'see the retailers order according to perceived sales, that's part of why things are still skewed--because they're ordering guessing on what some of these crossovers will do business wise, but there's often plenty of copies left over. I did a random ebay search on avengers 500 and found that I could buy all of disassembled from several sources and the actual issues would cost less than the shipping would.
that doesn't scream hard to find, sell out and chase to me...
in fact some of y'all would be better off waiting. it'll probably be cheaper to buy an entire run of bendis avengers a month after he gets off the book...

[Doctor Bong]

I agree with most of you... To hear Bendis talk about his Avengers long-run plans with a confidence I've never heard in any writer before suggests, I'm afraid, that he's sure as long as Quesada's the E.I.C., he'll stay put for many a moon to come... and by then, I fear NONE of us would give a d**n anymore, PERMANENTLY.
We MUST vote with our wallets... And believe me, I never thought I'd say this or encourage this attitude, for after all I've been an exclusive Marvel fan for over 30 years; I know these characters better than I know my neighbors (which I admit is sad); I care about them, A LOT! And that is why, precisely, as difficult as it may be, we have to do this thinking about the future...
Comics can and should be many things, but above all, they should be fun... so if we're not having fun anymore... what's the point, fellow assemblers...?
Not only that, but if memory serves me, it was Joe Q. himself who recently said over the internet that it doesn't matter if fans love or hate a book, as long as they keep talking about it, so I suggest that we could do our share here by, in the future, even AVOID complaining about Bendis and the book, other than to encourage and support each other in the decision not to buy it anymore... that is, as Joe Q. himself would suggest, to ignore the current title altogether...
In the meantime, hey, we can take our business to D.C. or any of the other publishers. As I said, I've always been, in the past, an exclusive Marvel fan; D.C. always seemed kinda lackluster by comparison to me, but it was because of their more interesting heroes, their continuity & their characterizations, precisely the kinds of elements that Bendis & other creators are currently so intent on tearing down! I know little about D.C. right now, but what little I know seems to indicate that, here today, they are handling their universe & their characters with a respect that I, for one, find lacking at Marvel.

[Doctor Bong]

I forgot to mention my main reason for dropping the title is that, like some of you, I believe this is the worst period in the Avengers history, bar none. I stood by the title during "The Crossing" and the stories leading to "Heroes Reborn", which was my previous watermark for worse, and back then I never dreamt that I'd see the day when that wouldn't seem so bad by comparison; unfortunately, I stand so corrected...!!!

[Yellowjacket]

jkemble said:

My favorite Roy Thomas was the Serpent Crown Affair. It had everything, or, was that Roy? hmmm, gettin' kinda old here...

Nice to read that you liked the story, as I´m still looking for MTIO #64/65. It was written by Gruenwald/Macchio.

[Ultron]

yellowjacket said:

jkemble said:

My favorite Roy Thomas was the Serpent Crown Affair. It had everything, or, was that Roy? hmmm, gettin' kinda old here...

Nice to read that you liked the story, as I´m still looking for MTIO #64/65. It was written by Gruenwald/Macchio.

If he's talking about the Serpent Crown story, he's talking about Steve Englehart, it happens on abouts of v1 14X's, it lasts quite long, a lá Steve 'Plotmeister' Englehart, it was pencilled by George Pérez in his original run on Avengers ever, and it was the basis for Kurt Busiek's Avengers Forever



Yeah, those lovely days when the Avengers didn't suck. Yeah, i'm pissed. Pretty pissed. How pissed? BobC level pissed! ;D

[dlw66]

Man... you're bobc-level pissed. That's pissed...

If I am not mistaken, there was another Avengers Serpent Crown story, but it escapes me when it was. Of course, to confuse things, there have also been a few Sons of the Serpent stories as well.

[Ultron]

As far as Avengers go, that was the first one. There was a previous Captain America one (v1 18X?). And probably more after it.

[kingb]

Count me among those who have decided to vote with his wallet.

I wish I could convey to Marvel that the current state of [New] Avengers has not just cost them my $3 per month for that title. Avengers is the Marvel tentpole book for me. Without an Avengers title that interests me, I've dropped Iron Man, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, Fantastic Four, Amazing Spider-Man, Astonishing X-Men, and more.

When you take trades and hardcovers that I'm skipping into account, I've probably cut out over $100 in Marvel books per month. All because I don't enjoy New Avengers.

[redstatecap]

I really appreciate that, KingB. You've taken that first step. If enough others take it, change will happen sooner rather than later.

RSC

[jkemble]

ultron said:

yellowjacket said:

Nice to read that you liked the story, as I´m still looking for MTIO #64/65. It was written by Gruenwald/Macchio.

If he's talking about the Serpent Crown story, he's talking about Steve Englehart, it happens on abouts of v1 14X's, it lasts quite long, a lá Steve 'Plotmeister' Englehart, it was pencilled by George Pérez in his original run on Avengers ever, and it was the basis for Kurt Busiek's Avengers Forever

yeah, that's the one. in fact, Avengers 141 is the first Avengers I remember ever owning as a child, I took it everywhere and read it a million times.
I have read the Avengers on and off since then, plus every back issue I could find. ...and pretty much everything else Marvel. you see, I don't have a life! ;D

thanks for this!

[Ultron]

Hey, here's a bigger one:



If you want to relive old memories there's a Trade Paper Back that collects the whole Saga:

www.amazon.com/gp/product/0785117008/002-1144665-1829612?v=glance&n=283155

[von Bek]

dlw66 said:

Man... you're bobc-level pissed. That's pissed...

If I am not mistaken, there was another Avengers Serpent Crown story, but it escapes me when it was. Of course, to confuse things, there have also been a few Sons of the Serpent stories as well.

In Avengers Annual 6 (1976) the Living Laser used the Serpent Crown too, to control Nuklo IIRC.

[dlw66]

You are correct, vonbek. That story is included in the Avengers Visionaries: George Perez tpb.

[asgardian]

ultron said:

Hey, here's a bigger one:



If you want to relive old memories there's a Trade Paper Back that collects the whole Saga:

www.amazon.com/gp/product/0785117008/002-1144665-1829612?v=glance&n=283155

Notice the cover to this issue has a mistake? The Avengers' opponents are the Squadron Supreme, not the Squadron Sinister.

[Ultron]

asgardian said:

Notice the cover to this issue has a mistake? The Avengers' opponents are the Squadron Supreme, not the Squadron Sinister.

This is probably the reason of their confusion:

[dlw66]

Any of these covers depicted on this page make me sad...

Man, those were the days.

[jkemble]

on sale this wednesday: New Avengers #23
are you going to buy it?

[jkemble]

I bought it.
I have to say that I enjoyed it too, better than last months!
did you buy it, or boycott it?

[Shiryu]

I'll get it once it arrives in Italy, foreign sells don't really have an effect on Marvel's decisions because they are at least a few months late.