Little funny, little sad

[woodside]

After learning that Uberwolf and Bendis Bites have left, I went back and reviewed some previous threads and found that the tale of this board is rather epic.

But I feel the need to return . . . what now? We've had how many leave in the past month? I rather like this site and I felt as though things were calming down in the past few weeks.

What can be done to save it's existence?

[Shiryu]

Keep fingers crossed and hope I suppose

In the past few weeks the atmosphere has been rather good, I can't think to any recent heated discussion. I ignore the reasons that made Uberwolf leave, and I wasn't much convinced by BB's ones, so I'm at a short with suggestions.

[dlw66]

One thing that needs to be considered is that any arguments that take place are two-way streets. If one person walks away from the situation, then it ends. If one person no longer wants to be active in a thread, then go there, state your piece either in declaration or rebuttal, and then let it drop. We can all read -- we all know where someone stands on a particular topic, story, creator, etc.

What bogged down the boards in the past months was a high amount of immaturity in this regard. I feel there are those who relish the opportunity to be controversial and argumentative (somewhat sadistic, no?), and those who just can't take that. What we've apparently seen is a situation where some just can't handle it anymore so they take their ball and go home. How truly silly was it that Rex left over the karma function of all things?? That someone called Balok out for the boor that he often behaved like? And this was offensive to him? He carried on that way, flat-out stated that he felt no moral obligation to his fellow man, and then got mad when someone called him out on his tone and behavior so he left?

I'm tired of it. This has, for the past couple of years, been a generally nice (from my perspective, but then I don't spar with others on a regular basis) place to come and talk about comics in general but the Avengers in particular. I will say publicly now that there are some in our community who tend to be tearers-down, and others whose opinions I look forward to reading each and every time. Of course there are many members in the middle (some active, some so-so active). Some of the people who have left -- good riddance. Go pollute someone else's water. Others who have left, I miss their interaction and information.

I think we're at a crossroads, but we've been here before. We have a few newer members who have added some energy to this place, and we've had a few old timers check in to say that they are still around but less-than-enthusiastic about the state of the industry. I appreciate that they check in every now-and-then just to say "hi". How those of us regulars react to this and what we do to keep this going remains to be seen.

But it is worth having, and worth attempting to re-energize.

[Doctor Doom]

Very well said, dlw.

I regret to say that you all know I have most certainly been one of the "tearer-downs" in that regard, and certainly the most consistently argumentative forummer, and for that I most sincerely apologize. To be honest, I'm a competitive person by nature, and that is certainly a fault... sometimes it takes a bigger person to stop an argument which is getting out of hand, and walk away, and unfortunately I have never been that person.

That said, I enjoy debating. Not the type of relentless, angry slugouts which devolved between myself and Balok or what have you, but a friendly debate- point and counterpoint, as much discussion as argument, all in good sense. I like it, I've always liked it, and certainly my life has to, by it's very nature, include a lot of it. The problem therein is that I'm set in my views and often when I meet someone so equally set... things turn ugly. There were periods of time where I almost dreaded coming here to AA to post another long argument. (And also periods when I've been very happy to do so- the initial hectic month or so of our Nuttiest Case of a friend springs to mind!)

So for that, and for all who left due to myself and my arguments, I really do apologize most sincerely. And from now on, I will try to be the bigger man, to make my point and if an argument's getting nasty, to end it and leave. I don't set out to be controversial, I just have my own opinion and "keep my own council" and, well, that's that.

But I digress. For the harm I've caused to the AA community, I sincerely apologize- for my idiocy, my obstinacy and my inability to be the bigger man. But I dearly love this community, and as long as the site will have me, I hope to stay here and contribute. No offence to those who left before, but it was Uberwolf leaving which really shook me- I still can't quite believe it, and still don't know why.

But remember, fellow Assemblers- over the years, our roster has fallen and prospered, changing many times but our glory has never been denied!

[rosecarver]

I will say that some of the bickering has been interesting to read. I guess part of it shows the strong opinions that some folks have, which is a good thing. For my own part, I hate confrontations of any kind. So if I leave a response somewhere, I try to state it simply as my opinion and I don't question the statements of others. They're intitled to their opinion, and nothing I say will change it.

[dlw66]

Doom, don't get me wrong -- there's nothing wrong with defending one's POV. I think in the past people have been put off by the line-by-line quoting, the dissecting of others' posts, etc.

At any rate, I think those of us who are around frequently now have an increased burden to keep this going with new topics, etc.

[Shiryu]

dlw66 said:

At any rate, I think those of us who are around frequently now have an increased burden to keep this going with new topics, etc.

True, and this, in itself, is a potential cause for concern. We all come in here to have fun and relax, if it becomes a(nother) source of stress, more people may leave.
Still, let's not start weeping yet and let's try to enjoy our forum with more energy than ever before!

[The Night Phantom]

At the risk of unintended irony:

dlw66 said:

I think in the past people have been put off by the line-by-line quoting, the dissecting of others' posts, etc.

Such techniques have been mentioned with suspicion elsewhere in recent weeks. I’d like to point out that they are merely tools, and like many tools, they can be used well or poorly. As Spiderwasp pointed out recently, quotations can help the reader understand the context of the post. I have found they also help me when I’m writing a reply in that they remind me of exactly what other people did say (it’s right there in the post I’m composing!) and can spare me the burden of trying to accurately and fairly summarize someone else’s words.

And “dissection” is not necessarily an attack. It can be part of a civil disagreement. Furthermore, it can also be helpful when writing to agree with or expand on another post or when posing questions.

At any rate, I think those of us who are around frequently now have an increased burden to keep this going with new topics, etc.

Lately there has also been a lot of worry about having too few members or too little activity. I feel like I’ve missed the memo explaining what the correct quantities are and why they need to be so large. Personally, I’m satisfied with a smallish user base (for that friendly community feeling) and a relaxed pace (so that I can keep up). I’m not saying we can’t have some more members or more activity from existing members; but if this board becomes the O’Hare International of bulletin boards, I will drop out. I’m much more interested in great quality than in great quantity.

[dlw66]

nightphantom said:

And “dissection” is not necessarily an attack. It can be part of a civil disagreement. Furthermore, it can also be helpful when writing to agree with or expand on another post or when posing questions.

Point taken -- however, notice your use of can. I would agree with that assessment. That wasn't the case, though, some months ago where it was senseless nit-picking for the sole purpose of abrasion.

As to quality vs. quantity, no argument. Diversity of opinion and interest, however, (and not in the negative "I'm right and you're wrong" sort) more likely comes from numbers. For example, back in the "heyday" of the AA! boards (did I just say that?), it was often W and Doom vs. everyone else. You don't think more users would have not only served to ease the polarization that was taking place, but also have lended itself toward some of the same opinions stated in a more diplomatic (even digestible) manner? More participants on either side might have stemmed the tide toward total obnoxiousness that some of those discussions seemed inevitably to degenerate to.

[The Night Phantom]

dlw66 said:

Diversity of opinion and interest, however, (and not in the negative "I'm right and you're wrong" sort) more likely comes from numbers.

Sometimes I have conflicting views on a topic, and so there we have diversity in one!

In your “Experiment #2”, you recently estimated that we had “15 or so” regular posters. That’s a potential for 15 or so distinct opinions on any given topic—to me, that’s quite a lot! (I’m not saying it would always work out that we’d each have a unique opinion, of course…)

For example, back in the "heyday" of the AA! boards (did I just say that?)

Well, there’s no denying you’re a nostalgist…

it was often W and Doom vs. everyone else. You don't think more users would have not only served to ease the polarization that was taking place, but also have lended itself toward some of the same opinions stated in a more diplomatic (even digestible) manner?

Well…if a major participant is (to borrow some phrases without actually wanting to pin things on anyone in particular) a “consistently argumentative forummer”, “a competitive person by nature”, and a person who’s “set in [his] views” and given to “obstinacy”, I think the answer would often be no. Additional opinions might be more fodder for argument or might simply be ignored in the pursuit of the “kill”. Furthermore, as your Experiment #2 brought out, members often refrain from posting when they see these arguments taking place anyway. And there’s no guarantee that a larger quantity of members would not include additional polarizing arguers!

I’ll grant that your envisioned scenario miiiight come about; I’m just not optimistic that it would.

I was a newbie once, and I hope my posts in this thread are not giving the impression that I am one of these immigrants who condemn or fear later waves of immigrants. I have been glad to see the continued infusion of new blood into our community and look forward to its continuation. I guess I’m saying that, although we’ve had our ups and downs, if we set aside the question of arbitrary membership benchmarks and just focus on conducting ourselves the way we want our forum to work, the quality and the quantities required to achieve and maintain that quality will likely attend to themselves.

[Tana Nile]

docdoom said:

So for that, and for all who left due to myself and my arguments, I really do apologize most sincerely. And from now on, I will try to be the bigger man, to make my point and if an argument's getting nasty, to end it and leave. I don't set out to be controversial, I just have my own opinion and "keep my own council" and, well, that's that.

I think you've just taken that first step towards being the bigger man, Doom. Good for you.

But I don't think you can blame yourself for any of the departures of our fellow posters. It's entirely their decision to go. They had the option to not participate in any arguments just like the rest of us. While I'll admit there were times that I felt extremely annoyed and/or frustrated with some of the threads I've participated in in the past, the solution was easy: say my piece and move on.

Anyone who left the board because they got tired of fighting really has no one to blame but themselves. They're also taking things a little too seriously. This is a comics board, for Pete's sake! Granted, some of the arguments got into things like civil rights, but again, there's always the option to just step away from the fight, especially when it is so blatantly obvious that your 'opponent' will never be swayed to your way of thinking.

Honestly, all this weeping and moaning by a couple of the departees just leaves me shaking my head and thinking, "drama queen" .

[Shiryu]

dlw66 said:

nightphantom said:

Diversity of opinion and interest, however, (and not in the negative "I'm right and you're wrong" sort) more likely comes from numbers.

Agreed.
I think 30ish regulars is more or less the right number to keep a forum in good shape, both in terms of replies and new topics, considering that it's pretty much granted that no-one posts in every single thread. At the moment for example, the General Board is great, Classic Avengers and NA are ok, but we have over half of the forum (pretty much everything under the New Avengers section) that is almost dead, with topics only rarely reaching 2 pages of lenght (in-fact, may be some of those sections should be fused into one, to make the board less dispersive).

I have been both in forum with hundreds of regulars and in one with as few as we are now. The first ones were very impersonal, there were just too many people and topics were reaching, like, page 10 in a few hours after being created. The other was my first forum ever and, sadly, eventually it closed down. We got to the point where we were all repeating the same things over and over again, and gradually just drifted away. However, that forum was not supported by a website as famous as AA, so I think there is more hope here.

[Nutcase65]

there is another thing that comes to mind as well, but I have no idea how it would be addressed.

There is an element of, well,.. arrogance,... in some people's attitudes that comes out as well. I used to post things that mattered to me but also just let off steam being crazy as well. It was also evident when I was doing which.

There are long standing members who would regularly coming off like a little old church lady clicking her tongue and disapproving of the existence of levity. Even sometimes coming off as completely unwelcoming.

It gets hard to just ignore that after a while.

[Doctor Bong]

Well, at least WE don't have a Gyrich around to cut our assembly down to seven...!!!

[imperiusrex]

dlw66 said:

One thing that needs to be considered is that any arguments that take place are two-way streets. If one person walks away from the situation, then it ends. If one person no longer wants to be active in a thread, then go there, state your piece either in declaration or rebuttal, and then let it drop. We can all read -- we all know where someone stands on a particular topic, story, creator, etc.

What bogged down the boards in the past months was a high amount of immaturity in this regard. I feel there are those who relish the opportunity to be controversial and argumentative (somewhat sadistic, no?), and those who just can't take that. What we've apparently seen is a situation where some just can't handle it anymore so they take their ball and go home. How truly silly was it that Rex left over the karma function of all things?? That someone called Balok out for the boor that he often behaved like? And this was offensive to him? He carried on that way, flat-out stated that he felt no moral obligation to his fellow man, and then got mad when someone called him out on his tone and behavior so he left?

I'm tired of it. This has, for the past couple of years, been a generally nice (from my perspective, but then I don't spar with others on a regular basis) place to come and talk about comics in general but the Avengers in particular. I will say publicly now that there are some in our community who tend to be tearers-down, and others whose opinions I look forward to reading each and every time. Of course there are many members in the middle (some active, some so-so active). Some of the people who have left -- good riddance. Go pollute someone else's water. Others who have left, I miss their interaction and information.

I think we're at a crossroads, but we've been here before. We have a few newer members who have added some energy to this place, and we've had a few old timers check in to say that they are still around but less-than-enthusiastic about the state of the industry. I appreciate that they check in every now-and-then just to say "hi". How those of us regulars react to this and what we do to keep this going remains to be seen.

But it is worth having, and worth attempting to re-energize.

I had some free time and thought I would clear something up. I did not merely leave due to the karma function (I thought given the PMs we traded you would have a higher opinion of me, DLW!) . I left because of several reasons related to rewarding bad behavior and because the mood of the board had changed.
Back when I joined up, back in the early days of disassembled, there was a mood of discontent and it was really embodied here. Scores of disaffected fans came here and it was a good venting place. For the most part we bonded over our discontent, like the bleachers section of a bad baseball team- we may have been unhappy but we were here for each other. Misery loves company and all that...
But then the mood changed and there's much more Marvel boosters on the board and in the spirit of fairness, many of are not suppose to contradict their posts or take umbrage at some of the claims made--at least that's the way I started to take it. Am I right? Who knows. All I know is its what I felt so I took it as such.
And when some members made a stink about the karma system it became to me a symbol of what was happening on the board.
The complainers were getting what they wanted.
Again, was my thinking on the subject entirely right or fair? I don't know. I only know I wasn't happy coming here anymore. And rather than fight over every post I put up and have long flame wars over minutiae in every thing I wrote, I just decided to resign.
I wanted a fun place with people who shared many of my beliefs. The point I made over and over was that the folks who wanted to promote and encourage the Marvel product had so many other places to go, but for those of us not enjoying it, this was the place to share the discontent.
Without that it wasn't fun anymore.
Judging by what happened in the recent past I was not the only one who felt that way. However regardless of all that, I was not having fun anymore.
And that's what I wrote and rather than do what others were doing, which is make the board a place of permanent fire and scorn, I left. I got tired of being angry when I came here and I got tired of trading insults. I thought it was much better to leave than continue to add to a bad atmosphere.
And other than when I looked through messages over the holidays I wasn't unhappy about leaving. I miss some of the folks here and those who I was friendly with know who they are and there were too many I liked to leave out any, but we weren't getting to bond like we used to.
I would ask and hope that after I leave this post people don't take it apart and decide I'm being unfair or rewriting history. I've already said everything is my own perception and that just isn't open to debate, honestly.
I just wanted to set the record straight as to my reasons. Whether they're right or wrong is simply not even worth discussing. They're my reasons and there's simply little chance they're going to change because someone on here may disagree with them.
Oh and to add that everyone regardless of the bad Rob Liefeld art should read Alan Moore's Judgment Day. Even though it was more meant as a reflection on the nineties, it is a perfect looking glass on the current state of comics in my eyes. Others may disagree and that's fine.
Start a thread somewhere and discuss it. Just don't make it a personal thing with me, okay?
Happy Holidays all and I'm off once again.

[dlw66]

Well, Rex, welcome back -- if only for a fleeting moment before you apparently left again...

As to your statement that I was incorrect about the reasons why you left (and as you have stated, I was wrong), here is what I was working from -- and I remember this well...

vplexico.proboards60.com/index.cgi?board=webannounce&action=display&thread=1178143432&page=2

So that's what I had to go on. I'm glad you chose to stop back by and clear things up a bit.

At any rate, I do hope you're still around doing some reading, looking in, etc. Post as a guest from time to time if you want, but do give us some input on the various topics around the board. You've been missed, and as we always said, you made great contributions while a regular poster.

Best to you,

Doug

[Doctor Doom]

I may disagree with some things in your reasoning, particularly your assertion this should be a site to express one PoV only, but that's all irrelevant and there's no sense arguing.

I'm sorry you feel that way, Rex, and believe it or not, I do miss your many contributions to the site. Still, I thank you for enlightening us as to why you left.

I'd still really like to hear why Uberwolf left... that was even more abrupt with no reason at all, and I really miss the guy around here.

[woodside]

Uberwolf and Rex are two that I miss the most. I think I really mistreated them in the past and I would love to make up for it.

[Tana Nile]

Add me to the list of those who hope Rex has a change of heart and returns. I always thought he contributed insightful posts.

[Shiryu]

I think we'll see more of Rex around, Tana After all he found this topic, which was back on page 2 and with a rather vague title. This suggests a bit of lurking