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Post by Nutcase65 on Nov 10, 2007 8:57:40 GMT -5
These 4 have all had pivotal roles at different times in Avenger history. But which has had the most influence on them being the team they are today?
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 10, 2007 10:27:06 GMT -5
One would imagine surely Loki, as without Loki, there are no Avengers for the other three to influence!
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Post by Nutcase65 on Nov 10, 2007 10:57:59 GMT -5
I'm voting Ultron. I know Loki startd the entire thing but over the years, in so many guises Ultron has continually shaped the Avengers. Just his creation of Vision has had a continual and permanent effect on them.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Nov 10, 2007 11:45:08 GMT -5
I would vote Loki precisely because, without him, there simply would be no Avengers, but in point of fact he's been such an infrecuent foe through the years (which is fine with me; to my mind, that makes his few appearances all the more special...)that I went with Ultron as well... No doubt a case for Kang is easy to argue for but, having to choose between him & Ultron, I vote Ultron because, historically & emotionally, his ties to the Avengers are simply stronger and, up until the new Annihilation, it's been more of a "true" Avengers foe, while Kang has sparred on more than one ocasion (if I'm not mistaken...) with the FF... It's interesting to me... in so many ways Doom & I see eye to eye until -relatively speaking- recently... We both adore the Busiek/Perez period & think the "Kang Dynasty" & "Ultron Unlimited" were truly awesome and certainly major defining moments in Kang & Ultron's respective histories... It is only after that that our tastes & opinions part company...
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Post by woodside on Nov 10, 2007 12:27:23 GMT -5
While Ultron and Loki both should recieve credit, I'm going with Kang.
My first taste of Kang and Avengers history was in "Avengers Forever," in which I saw just how much Kang's history intertwined with the Avengers. So, I'd say Kang simply because of how much of an effect they've had on each other.
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Post by von Bek on Nov 10, 2007 13:13:52 GMT -5
No doubt a case for Kang is easy to argue for but, having to choose between him & Ultron, I vote Ultron because, historically & emotionally, his ties to the Avengers are simply stronger and, up until the new Annihilation, it's been more of a "true" Avengers foe, while Kang has sparred on more than one ocasion (if I'm not mistaken...) with the FF... Well, Ultron fought many non-Avengers heroes over the years too, from FF to DD...
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Post by woodside on Nov 10, 2007 17:14:51 GMT -5
No doubt a case for Kang is easy to argue for but, having to choose between him & Ultron, I vote Ultron because, historically & emotionally, his ties to the Avengers are simply stronger and, up until the new Annihilation, it's been more of a "true" Avengers foe, while Kang has sparred on more than one ocasion (if I'm not mistaken...) with the FF... Well, Ultron fought many non-Avengers heroes over the years too, from FF to DD... Huh! I didn't know that! Here I thought he was Avengers-only.
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Post by Tana Nile on Nov 10, 2007 17:35:57 GMT -5
I went with Ultron, primarily for the very deep emotional issues he brings out in a number of Avengers (the Pyms, Vision).
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Post by dlw66 on Nov 11, 2007 15:17:43 GMT -5
I went with the Conqueror, mainly because his character offers the most possibility for epics on a cosmic scale. For sheer knock-down, drag-outs it's Ultron. But for stories of the scope of the Celestial Madonna, the Cross-time Kangs, and Avengers Forever, it's Kang.
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Post by von Bek on Nov 11, 2007 16:44:34 GMT -5
Well, Ultron fought many non-Avengers heroes over the years too, from FF to DD... Huh! I didn't know that! Here I thought he was Avengers-only. Against DD: During Ann Noceti´s run (I don´t remember the exact issues) - a very interesting arc, but very different from traditional superheroics Against FF - FF 150, the Crystal/Pietro wedding. He fought Machine Man too, and I´m sure Spiderman and some other hero in the pages of Marvel Team Up. There is more, I just can´t remember it right now...
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Post by rosecarver on Nov 12, 2007 19:15:18 GMT -5
I went with Ultron also. He has been a powerful foe, popping up time and time again, and is a worthy adversary. The family history with Hank, Janet, Jocasta, Alkhema, Mockingbird, Simon and of course, the Vision, have been entertaining in the past. He is one of the villains that the team just can't put down permanently.
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Post by Shiryu on Nov 16, 2007 3:49:02 GMT -5
This is quite a difficult question... if we were talking about worse enemy, nemesis and the likes, I would have gone for Ultron. However having the most influence is sligtly different...
If we take Kang away from the Avengers' history, we don't have Iron Man going insane during the Crossing (I know that was Immortus and not Kang, but you can't have one without the other). I think that's where Kang's influence has been the strongest, all his other stories, while often very good, didn't leave a huge mark in that sense.
If we take Ultron away, we don't have Vision, Jocasta and some of Hank's mental problems. The first would obviously be the biggest difference, since Vision is a core member of the team.
If we take Loki away, well... we don't have the Avengers, since it was him who caused them to join in first place. However, after that he hasn't done much against the team, except for the Acts of Vengeance storyline which didn't really leave a mark.
Now, I'm stuck between Loki and Ultron. Perhaps the Avengers would have formed anyway, but is unlikely that someone else would have built the Vision... Hmm, I go for Ultron in the end, but it's a tough choice.
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Post by starfoxxx on Dec 1, 2007 14:50:52 GMT -5
Ultron, although im bored with ultron and the daddy-mommy thing, Ultron in one incarnation or another show up every year or two for a big arc/storyline and usually really screws with an avenger or two's life/head. a better villain when used by another more scheming villain.
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