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Post by goldenfist on Dec 6, 2011 18:22:13 GMT -5
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Post by starfoxxx on Dec 6, 2011 18:43:47 GMT -5
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Post by Ignore Me! on Dec 6, 2011 21:11:01 GMT -5
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Post by tomspasic on Dec 7, 2011 17:17:02 GMT -5
As I posted elsewhere, I am glad he's leaving, but he's killed my interest in the Avengers title, and pretty much killed my interest in superhero comics as a genre.
I suppose if Gage or Busiek or some writer I like gets one of the Avengers books I might consider getting it again.
But since Marvel paid Bendis to give me the finger for eight years, I'm really not inclined to give them any of my money.
I know that isn't fair to other people at the company who aren't Bendis or his coterie of bestest buddy "architects", but it's how I feel.
So whilst I am glad for those who can look forwards to a new era, I can't help but wish it was 5 or even 3 years ago when I might still have wanted to go back to the book.
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Post by starfoxxx on Dec 7, 2011 19:30:40 GMT -5
Are Busiek and Perez busy next year?
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martyp
Great Lakes Avenger
Helloooo Nurse!
Posts: 31
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Post by martyp on Dec 8, 2011 3:47:23 GMT -5
Yay.....but it depends on who will be writing next if I jump in again.
I have a feeling it will be Fraction, and he is possibly even worse then Bendis at dialogue. But at least he doesn't write everybody as Spidey....
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Post by spiderwasp2 on Dec 8, 2011 23:07:38 GMT -5
Hey, I appear to be new here but am far from it. I've tried several times for a while to log on but couldn't. Unfortunately, I no longer have access to the e-mail I had when I registered a few years ago so I simply can't get on as myself so... Anyway, I figured I had to weigh in on the good news. Of course, I'm still afraid things won't be what they should but at least now, there's a chance. Spiderwasp never made any bones about hating Bendis and Spiderwasp2 hasn't mellowed a bit. At least now, there's hope so I'll give it a shot no matter who the writer is.
And I love the quote that he's written over 200 issues. That is pretty impressive. That must mean he's up to a dozen stories by now.
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Post by woodside on Dec 8, 2011 23:46:50 GMT -5
And I love the quote that he's written over 200 issues. That is pretty impressive. That must mean he's up to a dozen stories by now. HA!
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BigDuke
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 136
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Post by BigDuke on Dec 9, 2011 0:01:48 GMT -5
Best news in comics since I started collecting again (about 7 yrs ago or so)!
Hopefully the new writers uses someone other than BMB as their guidepost for Avengers writing.
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Post by pulpcitizen on Dec 11, 2011 14:09:09 GMT -5
I DO think that Bendis has been a primary architect of the Avengers franchise revival, so arguably his contribution should not be wholly dismissed I would suggest. That said, I think the time is right for him to go (and probably was at the end of New Avengers volume 1).
What I hope for most of all after Bendis goes is distinct voices for each Avengers title, if we still have 3 at that stage: Avengers; New Avengers; Avengers Assemble - and for me that means 3 discrete line-ups and 3 separate writers. There has simply been too much overlap between Avengers and new Avengers (vol. 2) for my taste.
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Post by freedomfighter on Dec 13, 2011 19:21:58 GMT -5
I DO think that Bendis has been a primary architect of the Avengers franchise revival, so arguably his contribution should not be wholly dismissed I would suggest. That said, I think the time is right for him to go (and probably was at the end of New Avengers volume 1). What I hope for most of all after Bendis goes is distinct voices for each Avengers title, if we still have 3 at that stage: Avengers; New Avengers; Avengers Assemble - and for me that means 3 discrete line-ups and 3 separate writers. There has simply been too much overlap between Avengers and new Avengers (vol. 2) for my taste. I think he was the architect of his Avengers who had no real connection to the previous team or any remembrance of its history. The franchise he wrote sold well, for several years, so he did the job he was hired for and Marvel can certainly point to that and win any argument, I suppose. As a longtime fan, I can't even in a begrudging fashion, give him much credit for anything else. I don't think any of Bendis' Avengers storylines are recalled with much joy or passion even by his fans (unlike, say, his Powers work). But hey, I'm glad you liked the stuff...
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Post by pulpcitizen on Dec 14, 2011 7:37:59 GMT -5
I DO think that Bendis has been a primary architect of the Avengers franchise revival, so arguably his contribution should not be wholly dismissed I would suggest. That said, I think the time is right for him to go (and probably was at the end of New Avengers volume 1). What I hope for most of all after Bendis goes is distinct voices for each Avengers title, if we still have 3 at that stage: Avengers; New Avengers; Avengers Assemble - and for me that means 3 discrete line-ups and 3 separate writers. There has simply been too much overlap between Avengers and new Avengers (vol. 2) for my taste. I think he was the architect of his Avengers who had no real connection to the previous team or any remembrance of its history. The franchise he wrote sold well, for several years, so he did the job he was hired for and Marvel can certainly point to that and win any argument, I suppose. As a longtime fan, I can't even in a begrudging fashion, give him much credit for anything else. I don't think any of Bendis' Avengers storylines are recalled with much joy or passion even by his fans (unlike, say, his Powers work). But hey, I'm glad you liked the stuff... And this is the rub for me. Enjoying his work has not detracted from the Avengers I have enjoyed since my earliest readings (starting around 251 or so, and extending backwards through reading a friend's back issues in the 80's - thanks Pete!). No, it hasn't been the same Avengers I knew, but then again that era for comics has probably gone. I suspect that the Busiek period was a last hurrah for a type of Avengers writing and team representation that I believe won't come around again. I may be wrong of course. And of course there is no guarantee that Marvel will look to create stylistic change following Bendis' departure. I hope they do, but time will tell. But the point I would make is that the number of writers who would write the Avengers in a way that reflects those earlier eras more than the recent one and who already have not had a tenure with the Avengers is probably very small indeed given Marvel's current slate of creators. Even including those with a prior Avengers link, and whose work may be sympathetic to older times may be quite a short one: Waid and Casey come to mind. No, I don't regard Bendis as the Devil among Avengers writers. His style has been at odds with that of many (all?) his predecessors. There has been some good (the dialogue mainly for me; some of the inclusions especially long-overdue ones such as Luke Cage, Dr Strange, Spider-man, Iron Fist, Daredevil) and bad (the indistinct sense around arcs amid line-wide Events; the over-repetition of certain story telling devices), but I think with any writer the same is true.
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Post by freedomfighter on Dec 14, 2011 15:17:49 GMT -5
I think he was the architect of his Avengers who had no real connection to the previous team or any remembrance of its history. The franchise he wrote sold well, for several years, so he did the job he was hired for and Marvel can certainly point to that and win any argument, I suppose. As a longtime fan, I can't even in a begrudging fashion, give him much credit for anything else. I don't think any of Bendis' Avengers storylines are recalled with much joy or passion even by his fans (unlike, say, his Powers work). But hey, I'm glad you liked the stuff... And this is the rub for me. Enjoying his work has not detracted from the Avengers I have enjoyed since my earliest readings (starting around 251 or so, and extending backwards through reading a friend's back issues in the 80's - thanks Pete!). No, it hasn't been the same Avengers I knew, but then again that era for comics has probably gone. I suspect that the Busiek period was a last hurrah for a type of Avengers writing and team representation that I believe won't come around again. I may be wrong of course. And of course there is no guarantee that Marvel will look to create stylistic change following Bendis' departure. I hope they do, but time will tell. But the point I would make is that the number of writers who would write the Avengers in a way that reflects those earlier eras more than the recent one and who already have not had a tenure with the Avengers is probably very small indeed given Marvel's current slate of creators. Even including those with a prior Avengers link, and whose work may be sympathetic to older times may be quite a short one: Waid and Casey come to mind. No, I don't regard Bendis as the Devil among Avengers writers. His style has been at odds with that of many (all?) his predecessors. There has been some good (the dialogue mainly for me; some of the inclusions especially long-overdue ones such as Luke Cage, Dr Strange, Spider-man, Iron Fist, Daredevil) and bad (the indistinct sense around arcs amid line-wide Events; the over-repetition of certain story telling devices), but I think with any writer the same is true. I think even his most ardent fans would agree that Bendis doesn't write earth shaking, big adventure very well. Which is a shame because that's kind of a huge part of big, powerhouse teams like the Avengers and JLA. Even his biggest event, Secret Invasion is at its heart, a mystery story that simply got really big and very inconsistent. You know I was going to go into this whole thing about current comics and I find that Mark Waid did an interview that covers his terrific Daredevil and does a better job summing up my current malaise than I could anyway... www.comixology.com/articles/482/Why-Daredevil-Talks-Like-That-An-Interview-with-Mark-Waid
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Post by pulpcitizen on Dec 19, 2011 15:08:42 GMT -5
I think even his most ardent fans would agree that Bendis doesn't write earth shaking, big adventure very well. Which is a shame because that's kind of a huge part of big, powerhouse teams like the Avengers and JLA. Even his biggest event, Secret Invasion is at its heart, a mystery story that simply got really big and very inconsistent... I can't disagree with your point here about the earth-shaking emphasis. However, besides reinvigorating the line with success, I think he made some excellent choices with new members during has era: specifically Luke Cage, Iron fist, Spider-man, Doctor Strange and now Daredevil, all of who I am glad to have seen as Avengers.
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Post by nomorebendis on Dec 19, 2011 19:40:56 GMT -5
Best news since the last decade or so. Will be celebrating from day one. Doesn't matter who takes over everything is better than Bendis on the Avengers.
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Post by spiderwasp2 on Dec 19, 2011 19:59:37 GMT -5
Best news since the last decade or so. Will be celebrating from day one. Doesn't matter who takes over everything is better than Bendis on the Avengers. Love your name. I had that as a tag at the bottom of all my posts for a long time (When I was Spiderwasp rather than the current clone).
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Post by pulpcitizen on Dec 20, 2011 10:40:29 GMT -5
Best news since the last decade or so. Will be celebrating from day one. Doesn't matter who takes over everything is better than Bendis on the Avengers. Hyperbole surely?
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Post by spiderwasp2 on Dec 20, 2011 15:15:16 GMT -5
Best news since the last decade or so. Will be celebrating from day one. Doesn't matter who takes over everything is better than Bendis on the Avengers. Hyperbole surely? I'd say this depends on how you interpret the statement. Is it better news than the war ending or all the people walking away from the plane crash on the Hudson without injury? of course not. Is the best COMIC BOOK related news of the decade? By a long long long shot. I have never been so happy to see someone leave a book before or despised a writer so much during their run. That's not hyperbole, not even a little bit. Actually, as far as comics go, I'd say that calling this the best news of the past decade or so was actually an understatement.
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Post by pulpcitizen on Dec 20, 2011 15:47:24 GMT -5
Hyperbole surely? I'd say this depends on how you interpret the statement. Is it better news than the war ending or all the people walking away from the plane crash on the Hudson without injury? of course not. Is the best COMIC BOOK related news of the decade? By a long long long shot. I have never been so happy to see someone leave a book before or despised a writer so much during their run. That's not hyperbole, not even a little bit. Actually, as far as comics go, I'd say that calling this the best news of the past decade or so was actually an understatement. So there is no one who you DON'T want to take over? That is where I was going with the hyperbole comment. For my own part there are a number of writers who I don't want to see anywhere near the 3 core Avengers books that it looks we will have. I honestly think things could be worse - much worse.
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Post by spiderwasp2 on Dec 20, 2011 18:17:46 GMT -5
So there is no one who you DON'T want to take over? That is where I was going with the hyperbole comment. For my own part there are a number of writers who I don't want to see anywhere near the 3 core Avengers books that it looks we will have. I honestly think things could be worse - much worse. Let's put it this way. I started reading the Avengers around the time I first learned to read which was the very early 70s. I didn't stop reading or loving the team until the "Heroes Reborn" nonsense. I didn't buy the book for a year and then my team came back, stronger than ever. I admit there were rough times, especially right before "Reborn" with the awful "Crossing" mess but the bad times were brief and there was always some element I still enjoyed. Then Bendis took over. Everything I loved about the book was destroyed. History was rewritten or ignored. Characters acted totally different than they should. All enjoyment I got from reading the books vanished and was replaced by frustration as I suffered through issues where nothing happened except that I was able to read them in 2 minutes after spending several dollars. I finally, sadly stopped reading New Avengers. Then it was announced that "Mighty Avengers" would be more Avengery. Even though it was still written by Bendis, I gave it a chance. It was a little better but only by comparison and only at first. Next, we delved into "Secret Invasion" and several issues in which the Avengers didn't even appear. By the time "Secret Invasion" ended, I gave up. I swore to never buy another book by this man. Sometimes, in desperation, I picked up issues of his book and read a few pages, thinking that if things were better, maybe I'd change my mind. My frustration continued. Even for free, I couldn't make myself care about the exploits of these characters I had loved for almost my entire life. Luckily Avengers Academy came along and proved that it wasn't me or the characters that had changed. I could still anticipate and enjoy issues of an Avengers book as much as I ever could. So, in answer to your question, "Is there any way I think it could get worse with a new writer?", my answer is no. It can't get worse than making me turn away from a beloved hobby, stop caring about favorite characters, and be filled with disappointment at the very sight of a new Avengers book. Granted, it's possible someone else can be just as bad, but it can't possibly be worse than that.
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Post by pulpcitizen on Dec 21, 2011 5:19:09 GMT -5
So there is no one who you DON'T want to take over? That is where I was going with the hyperbole comment. For my own part there are a number of writers who I don't want to see anywhere near the 3 core Avengers books that it looks we will have. I honestly think things could be worse - much worse. Let's put it this way. I started reading the Avengers around the time I first learned to read which was the very early 70s. I didn't stop reading or loving the team until the "Heroes Reborn" nonsense. I didn't buy the book for a year and then my team came back, stronger than ever. I admit there were rough times, especially right before "Reborn" with the awful "Crossing" mess but the bad times were brief and there was always some element I still enjoyed. Then Bendis took over. Everything I loved about the book was destroyed. History was rewritten or ignored. Characters acted totally different than they should. All enjoyment I got from reading the books vanished and was replaced by frustration as I suffered through issues where nothing happened except that I was able to read them in 2 minutes after spending several dollars. I finally, sadly stopped reading New Avengers. Then it was announced that "Mighty Avengers" would be more Avengery. Even though it was still written by Bendis, I gave it a chance. It was a little better but only by comparison and only at first. Next, we delved into "Secret Invasion" and several issues in which the Avengers didn't even appear. By the time "Secret Invasion" ended, I gave up. I swore to never buy another book by this man. Sometimes, in desperation, I picked up issues of his book and read a few pages, thinking that if things were better, maybe I'd change my mind. My frustration continued. Even for free, I couldn't make myself care about the exploits of these characters I had loved for almost my entire life. Luckily Avengers Academy came along and proved that it wasn't me or the characters that had changed. I could still anticipate and enjoy issues of an Avengers book as much as I ever could. So, in answer to your question, "Is there any way I think it could get worse with a new writer?", my answer is no. It can't get worse than making me turn away from a beloved hobby, stop caring about favorite characters, and be filled with disappointment at the very sight of a new Avengers book. Granted, it's possible someone else can be just as bad, but it can't possibly be worse than that. And that is fair comment - from a position of feeling alienated by the direction and content of Avengers I can see what you are saying. It is all in the eye of the beholder though, isn't it? By that I mean that no comic book character of any longevity has remained static in their representation over sustained time, there is always some change, like it or not. It is what we are prepared to accept that reflects our own interpretation of cherished characters. However characters do grow, otherwise stories would be only action beats with nothing else, and characters would be mere ciphers. For me there are a number of writers who I would dread taking over. While for you you say it can be as bad, but not worse - well if any writer you think of as equally a bad fit (possibly for different reasons) comes aboard, and causes you to stay away, is that not worse in so much as the thing you have wanted (Bendis gone) has happened, yet you would still not be able to enjoy the book you hold dear? For me, if someone wrote the book into the ground where it didn't sell - that would be a far worse proposition; at least any new writers are coming in to a position of strong current sales. And finally, without the success of the core Avengers brand that Bendis has built in his tenure (yes it HAS been very strong for a long time, but that strength has both waxed and waned), would we have seen firstly Avengers: the Initiative or latterly Avengers Academy? Now I am not linking the positive regard for those titles to Bendis, but I would argue that without his sustained commercial success with the Avengers they may not have been created or given a chance (second chance?).
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Post by freedomfighter on Dec 21, 2011 9:56:48 GMT -5
I think even his most ardent fans would agree that Bendis doesn't write earth shaking, big adventure very well. Which is a shame because that's kind of a huge part of big, powerhouse teams like the Avengers and JLA. Even his biggest event, Secret Invasion is at its heart, a mystery story that simply got really big and very inconsistent... I can't disagree with your point here about the earth-shaking emphasis. However, besides reinvigorating the line with success, I think he made some excellent choices with new members during has era: specifically Luke Cage, Iron fist, Spider-man, Doctor Strange and now Daredevil, all of who I am glad to have seen as Avengers. Luke, DD and Iron Fist, I am okay with. Spidey, Wolverine, Jessica Jones and Doc Strange, not so much. These characters always felt shoehorned in. Spidey is good when he's the low man on the totem pole and has a ton of problems that an average guy can empathize with. You can say he's outgrown that status, but when you can go to Tony Stark for a jet or for protection for your family or a new cybernetic Spidersuit, it just makes for a less relatable character to me and that should be Spidey's place in the marvel universe. Dr. Strange...well this is the same problem the Defenders have always had. Team Doc up with any heavy hitters and things just go into ridiculous status. I mean, nothing short of Galactus with the cosmic cube should slow down Strange, the Silver Surfer and the Hulk- they're just too powerful. And Doc's powers are so ill-defined that he is just a hindrance to many books. While the Hulk is a powerhouse, he can still be knocked out (well except in the Godawful World War Hulk mini where nothing in the universe could stop him...that story TRULY bugged me) Wolverine. ech. I won't even bother with Mr. Overexposed.
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Post by tomspasic on Dec 21, 2011 17:55:45 GMT -5
To answer the reasonable point that there are other poor writers who might conceivably get to write an Avengers book, the reason why it will be better no matter who it is, is that under no circumstances will their awfulness last for eight smug, self-satisfied years. So no matter who writes Avengers, it will be indisputably better. Firstly because it wont be Bendis, and secondly because it wont last for the best part of a decade.
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Post by spiderwasp2 on Dec 22, 2011 1:26:55 GMT -5
To answer the reasonable point that there are other poor writers who might conceivably get to write an Avengers book, the reason why it will be better no matter who it is, is that under no circumstances will their awfulness last for eight smug, self-satisfied years. So no matter who writes Avengers, it will be indisputably better. Firstly because it wont be Bendis, and secondly because it wont last for the best part of a decade. Thank you. I had planned to make that exact point. I don't think Bendis writing was really any worse than the awful "Crossing" storyline for example (The pointless murders of Marilla and Yellowjacket 2, the Wasp becoming a human insect, Teenage Tony Stark - boy that was bad). However, as you said, it only lasted a short time and then we moved on. Once Bendis took over, it was like a decade of "The Crossing," which was more than I could take. Anyone who takes over now will be an improvement because now there will be HOPE. Oh, and as to the sales figures. Are they really that good? If you compare the number of books being sold to the number of books being sold during other times throughout history is it anywhere near as impressive as when you look at the dollar figures. It's hard for books that sold for .25, .50, or .75 to compete with totals for books that sell for 3.99. I'm not saying more books sold then, I really don't know. I'd just be interested in seeing those figures. I really hate when people act like Bendis swooped in and saved the Avengers. Granted the year or so before he took over where not amongst the best years in the history of the book, but I don't think it was in any danger of being cancelled. He certainly didn't save the book on anywhere near the same scale that Kurt Busiek saved it. It actually had been cancelled and replaced with an alternate version during some really bad times when he came out swinging and knocked it out of the ballpark. Sales could have climbed back up with better writing rather than gimmicks like only focusing on Marvel's biggest selling characters and ignoring fan favorites who weren't the top draws. If I were a movie producer, I guarantee I could rake in big bucks today if I made a movie starring Zac Efron, Taylor Lautner, Taylor Swift, Morgan Freeman, Meryl Streep, Johnny Depp, Justin Beiber, Will Smith, Queen Latifah, Daniel Radcliffe and Betty White, even if it were the worst script ever written and even if each one of them had very little to do. Getting the praise and acclaim using only one or two big names ("The King's Speech" for example) and an excellent script and production values takes much more talent.
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Post by tomspasic on Dec 22, 2011 5:34:58 GMT -5
RE sales: I looked at Diamonds site and made a graph based on the "index" numbers, comparing Avengers/New Avengers with JLA, Xmen and Spiderman since 2002. There was a 6-10 month period at the start of Bendis regime where he outsold everything by a wide margin, beginning with the big spike at na#1. But a lot of the time his supposed sales supremacy is exaggerated, or non-existant: I know it's inconclusive, I'm not even sure what the "index" numbers are or mean. The spikes are generally anniversary issues or relaunch #1s. But it does puncture the myth that Bendis dominated the market for the last decade.
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Post by freedomfighter on Dec 22, 2011 19:10:04 GMT -5
It's funny to not be the guy in a thread who hates Bendis the most... I've disliked 99% of what he's done on the title, but you do have to remember that most of his work was facilitated by Brevoort and Quesada. It would have been easy to rein in some of Bendis' excesses, his stylistic tricks if you will, if they chose to and they did not. They let him go amok. Disassembled ("not like this!" aaagh! Boom!!). Greenlighted by Marvel. Secret Invasion? Greenlighted by Marvel. Killing Alpha Flight? Greenlighted by Marvel. Letting Wanda go crazy and displaying a level of power that she never had without being possessed and ignoring that Dr. Strange himself talked about chaos magic so it wasn't just "made up?" Greenlighted by Marvel. At every turn they had an opportunity to say "this doesn't fly- work on it and see if there's a better angle." Marvel didn't. So I can get angry at Bendis (and I am...), but Marvel editorial should know there's a legacy here that had to be preserved for the next guy who writes the book and to keep the franchise viable and they didn't. There were several chances to improve the clarity and storytelling and a long standing editor like Brevoort didn't do it. That's on Marvel. If everyone is kissing your ass and telling you your book is genius and letting you get away with crap, then I have to blame them just as much.
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Post by pulpcitizen on Dec 25, 2011 9:16:06 GMT -5
To answer the reasonable point that there are other poor writers who might conceivably get to write an Avengers book, the reason why it will be better no matter who it is, is that under no circumstances will their awfulness last for eight smug, self-satisfied years. So no matter who writes Avengers, it will be indisputably better. Firstly because it wont be Bendis, and secondly because it wont last for the best part of a decade. Thank you. I had planned to make that exact point. I don't think Bendis writing was really any worse than the awful "Crossing" storyline for example (The pointless murders of Marilla and Yellowjacket 2, the Wasp becoming a human insect, Teenage Tony Stark - boy that was bad). However, as you said, it only lasted a short time and then we moved on. Once Bendis took over, it was like a decade of "The Crossing," which was more than I could take. Anyone who takes over now will be an improvement because now there will be HOPE. Oh, and as to the sales figures. Are they really that good? If you compare the number of books being sold to the number of books being sold during other times throughout history is it anywhere near as impressive as when you look at the dollar figures. It's hard for books that sold for .25, .50, or .75 to compete with totals for books that sell for 3.99. I'm not saying more books sold then, I really don't know. I'd just be interested in seeing those figures. I really hate when people act like Bendis swooped in and saved the Avengers. Granted the year or so before he took over where not amongst the best years in the history of the book, but I don't think it was in any danger of being cancelled. He certainly didn't save the book on anywhere near the same scale that Kurt Busiek saved it. It actually had been cancelled and replaced with an alternate version during some really bad times when he came out swinging and knocked it out of the ballpark. Sales could have climbed back up with better writing rather than gimmicks like only focusing on Marvel's biggest selling characters and ignoring fan favorites who weren't the top draws... With an ever-dwindling market sales in pure unit terms are probably not helpful. Better yet may be like-for like comparisons, ranking books that have sustained over time (in one volume of another) with other similar lasting titles (therefore stripping out limited series , especially including events).
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Post by bobc on Feb 12, 2012 10:02:13 GMT -5
It's 2012--is Miss Bendis gone yet?
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Post by spiderwasp on Feb 12, 2012 19:07:34 GMT -5
It's 2012--is Miss Bendis gone yet? Sorry Bob, but miss and Bendis are 2 words I don't think I'll ever use in the same sentence.
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Post by bobc on Feb 13, 2012 15:47:53 GMT -5
How do you feel about talentless hack?
I repeat: IS HE GONE YET?!!!!!!!!!
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